ptomsu
Workshop Member
X2 in Austria is €1650.-
RX1 in Austria shall be around €3000.-
Roughly double the price ....
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Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?
- Thread starter ustein
- Start date
X2 in Austria is €1650.-
RX1 in Austria shall be around €3000.-
Roughly double the price ....
V
Vivek
Guest
X2 is €1749
RX1 is €3099 (US $ ~$4,000). The battery charger is only €80.
(In the Netherlands)
I would use the term day light robbery but Sony have bequeathed that to Habbelsad.
RX1 is €3099 (US $ ~$4,000). The battery charger is only €80.
(In the Netherlands)
I would use the term day light robbery but Sony have bequeathed that to Habbelsad.
I agree that the R1 is very expensive, especially in Europe. Still, it's a very attractive camera.
For me it's the same as with the NEX 7 which Michael Reichmann describes: there was something about the NEX-7 that made it very appealing as a "thing" unto itself, not just as a device for taking photographs.
I have two 7's and the RX1 gives me serious GAS, arghhhh.
For me it's the same as with the NEX 7 which Michael Reichmann describes: there was something about the NEX-7 that made it very appealing as a "thing" unto itself, not just as a device for taking photographs.
I have two 7's and the RX1 gives me serious GAS, arghhhh.
According to the Sony-guys at PK there is only one functional RX1 around in the wild, the rest are just mock-ups and prototypes. The sensor cannot handle oblique light rays and the "Zeiss" 2/35 compensates for that with a huge rear element (~45mm in diameter) - so even most DSLR-mounts wouldn't be large enough. A stronger WA would be much bigger. The NEX is a cool concept, but not feasible for FF - especially the NEX-7 performs poorly with real WA (made my Summicron 28mm look like crap).
If Leica does it right, they will have a comfy advantage in the FF-mirrorless-segment for a while and Sony has proven that they don't understand niche-markets and cripple their products for many applications.
If Leica does it right, they will have a comfy advantage in the FF-mirrorless-segment for a while and Sony has proven that they don't understand niche-markets and cripple their products for many applications.
Shashin
Well-known member
I was not saying it was unique to the RX1, but it was a benefit of a leaf shutter being on a digital camera. On film cameras, it was hard to get shutter speeds faster than 1/500s. Only focal plane shutters were able to exceed that.
When talking about shutter efficiency and shutter speed, exposure is measured from half open. The exposure time will not be exactly the same depending on the aperture used. The smaller the aperture, the more efficient/accurate the shutter--the blades clear the aperture faster. This is actually the other benefit of having the shutter only ending the exposure is shutter efficiency goes up.
So my original post was just pointing out the benefits of having a leaf shutter on a digital camera. One huge benefit is top shutter speeds. My first "real" camera, a Nikon FM, had a kick-*** top speed of 1/1000s which was only possible with a focal plane shutter. I find leaf shutters now exceeding that really neat.
Shashin
Well-known member
I think Sony has made an awesome product for the high-end fixed-lens camera market. It seems to be able to take high quality still and video images. How is it crippled? It is a perfect match for that niche market.
V
Vivek
Guest
If Leica can get the sensors they need, SOny, being the largest sensor makers in the world should be able to if they want to.
I agree the RX1 is half baked at best.
Nobody knows how the RX1 actually performs, yet. I have owned some Sony-flagship (expensive, made in Japan) products because they seemed to be outstanding on paper and they proved to be crippled, compromised and had several defects - and don't get me started with Sony customer service... Or is that just a problem in Germany?
Maybe Sony can design a sensor which can handle different lens types as well as the CMOSIS/STmicro-sensor from the Leica M presumably can - but so far they have done nothing, their fairly new 24MP APS-C-sensor is in fact one of the worst sensors in this regard...
There are some real sensor-specialists that outperform any Sony-sensor-design that are hardly noticed (size isn't anything) - it's a good long-term choice to spend some R&D in this crucial element for Leica (or any camera manufacturer) in favor of just using an off-the-shelf Sony product that your competitors use...
Maybe Sony can design a sensor which can handle different lens types as well as the CMOSIS/STmicro-sensor from the Leica M presumably can - but so far they have done nothing, their fairly new 24MP APS-C-sensor is in fact one of the worst sensors in this regard...
There are some real sensor-specialists that outperform any Sony-sensor-design that are hardly noticed (size isn't anything) - it's a good long-term choice to spend some R&D in this crucial element for Leica (or any camera manufacturer) in favor of just using an off-the-shelf Sony product that your competitors use...
Godfrey
Well-known member
I agree with you. Leica's previous M series sensors were also custom designed for them by Kodak, and look how nicely they work. The M9 has always, to me, seemed more of the bottom run of medium format digital rather than the top run of 35mm digital.
I've had my share of disappointments with Sony gear, but some of it has been brilliant. I hope the RX1 is brilliant, I love the concept even if I'm not going to buy one.
hot
Active member
I've wether desire for M nor for RX1 - there are lots of verrry good cameras for less,
I DO NOT WORK for Mr.SONY's or Mrs.LEICA's luxury, hehe.
They may collect money with people which earn their money easier (BillGates & Similar).
€ 3099 or more ... toc-toc-toc made Obelix!
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1 schwarz Preisvergleich | Geizhals EU
I DO NOT WORK for Mr.SONY's or Mrs.LEICA's luxury, hehe.
They may collect money with people which earn their money easier (BillGates & Similar).
€ 3099 or more ... toc-toc-toc made Obelix!
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1 schwarz Preisvergleich | Geizhals EU
By the way, the CMOSIS-sensor is a custom design for the Leica M down to the photosite-level. The M8/M9-sensors were just slightly modified by Kodak (offset microlenses, size, glass) just like Nikon or Fuji (CFA) just use slightly modified Sony-sensors.
That's the point, Sony has the advantage of being able to design & manufacture most of the components themselves and they have large R&D resources (although they need it for a large variety of products - it's easy to forget that). I always felt that some brilliant products have been crippled by cost-cutting and compromises. Right now the RX100 is the best P&S, IMHO and I hope the RX1 will be good as well.
The Leica M8/9 was also a compromise, made in an era where little money could be spend on R&D, everyhthing was outsourced (internals are Jenoptik, not even the firmware was Leica) - some suppliers are not even willing to continue support (M8 LCDs...) - but I hope with the S and now the M, this chapter of "digital infancy" is finally over...
But we have to wait and see, the Leica M seems to solve very basic problems that exist since the beginning of the digital era and open it up for the largest variety of lenses and put it in a pro-level body (D4/1dx and not 5dIII/D600). I wish for a newly designed state-of-the-art EVF, not one from Epson...
That's the point, Sony has the advantage of being able to design & manufacture most of the components themselves and they have large R&D resources (although they need it for a large variety of products - it's easy to forget that). I always felt that some brilliant products have been crippled by cost-cutting and compromises. Right now the RX100 is the best P&S, IMHO and I hope the RX1 will be good as well.
The Leica M8/9 was also a compromise, made in an era where little money could be spend on R&D, everyhthing was outsourced (internals are Jenoptik, not even the firmware was Leica) - some suppliers are not even willing to continue support (M8 LCDs...) - but I hope with the S and now the M, this chapter of "digital infancy" is finally over...
But we have to wait and see, the Leica M seems to solve very basic problems that exist since the beginning of the digital era and open it up for the largest variety of lenses and put it in a pro-level body (D4/1dx and not 5dIII/D600). I wish for a newly designed state-of-the-art EVF, not one from Epson...
ken_vs_ryu
Member
Are there any Leica/CMOSIS sample images available?
jonoslack
Active member
Hi Ken
No - I don't think so - SD cards were glued into the cameras at Photokina.
Georg - Sony customer service is terrible in the UK as well, fortunately their stuff seems fairly reliable! They'll have to do something about it if they really want pros to pick up on this camera (and the A99 come to think of it).
My ideal mirrorless would be a camera with the hybridviewfinder al la Fuji x-pro 1 and AF, but with a ff sensor giving IQ of the M9 or better and with Leica AF optics based on the Leica M lenses.
I am overall a fan of the x-pro 1 but find the images not to have that "deep" look I get from the M9.
If the lenses of the x-pro1 were as good as Leica M lenses and the sensor as good I would probably skip my M-gear and switch to the X-Pro1.
I am overall a fan of the x-pro 1 but find the images not to have that "deep" look I get from the M9.
If the lenses of the x-pro1 were as good as Leica M lenses and the sensor as good I would probably skip my M-gear and switch to the X-Pro1.
They're still in an early stage and the cameras shown are just functional prototypes, so we propably have to wait for real DNG-files to play with till next year. Here is the only sample I could find... : M Sample Photo, High ISO | La Vida Leica!
Too early to tell anything.
Too early to tell anything.
V
Vivek
Guest
Thanks for posting.
I have to ask (image quality), :wtf:
I have to ask (image quality), :wtf:
ken_vs_ryu
Member
it's from DPReview and it's not from the M.
Ok guys , An Unofficial "New M" shot ....6400 Iso... : Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
Ok guys , An Unofficial "New M" shot ....6400 Iso... : Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
I think many people overlook the fact that the RX1 was designed by the Cybershot groupe at Sony. They saw an opportunity to develop premium products and compete with the likes of Canon G, Panasonic LX, and Fuji X100 (I doubt that Leica X-1) was even on their radar screen). Hence came the RX100? Now RX1 aims to be the flagship product, like the NEX 7 was the intended flagship of the NEX line, and the best-specced mirrorless camera in the world.
Expecting that effort (RX1) to spillover to what other groups are doing (the NEX group, or even Alpha) would be a mistake IMHO, because they have their own group targets, and compete with each other, as the case may be, as they do with anyone else, for market share.
So I read RX1 as an embodiment in the compact segment of Sony's strategy to go for premium products, not as a predictor of what they might do elsewhere.
Expecting that effort (RX1) to spillover to what other groups are doing (the NEX group, or even Alpha) would be a mistake IMHO, because they have their own group targets, and compete with each other, as the case may be, as they do with anyone else, for market share.
So I read RX1 as an embodiment in the compact segment of Sony's strategy to go for premium products, not as a predictor of what they might do elsewhere.
If there were a mirrorless camera like the NEX ,with an APS-C sensor that got 36 MP (or more) - and which had no problems with short lenses - would anyone care about full-frame ?
is it full-frame for its own sake, or the notion that full-frame promises better image quality ?
is it full-frame for its own sake, or the notion that full-frame promises better image quality ?
Shashin
Well-known member
Because there is more to image quality than pixel count. Actually, pixel resolution is really overrated and format size means something. Personally, I would not want a 36MP sensor--why bother with the extra file size when the 23% in extra resolution will not be really noticed?
You will also notice 24MP APS cameras have not replaced 24MP 35mm cameras.