Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

[f/otographer]

I think a full frame NEX is a very strong possibility. There is no technical reason it cant be done, I just think Sony has a LOT on its developmental plate right now. They are innovating at a rate that is simply shaming other brands. Personally I really want to see a FF NEX appear even though it wont be in my budget anytime soon.

But what I really want to see is a professional bodied NEX 7 Mk. II. Keep the same body design, including the Tri Navi system, and then add all the nifty extra bits the NEX 6 has like WiFi and such. Give it a new 24mp sensor with on sensor phase detect AF. But most importantly, give it full weather and dust sealing in a strong and rugged body. And then follow through on this commitment with the development of a weather proof line of E mount lenses. As douglas said, the NEX lines lineup is pretty decent right now. Sony needs to take some of the more popular lenses and make them dust/waterproof. A sort of E-Professional (Sony EP ) lineup of glass. Yes this will add cost, but pros and serious enthusiasts will pay for them.

Anyway, thats what I would like to see. I love my NEX 7, I would love to see a NEX 9 FF. I would really love a pro NEX body.

 

[Nettar]

We seem to be on the threshold of a brave new world in lens-and-camera technology, at least as far as FF is concerned. In the last day or so we have seen a home-made mirrorless FF camera capable of using effectively at least some Leica M lenses ( _Canon/Leica Mod « DSLR Wireless Monitors ). Let's conjecture a little about future FF mirrorless cameras that will enjoy very short lens-mount-to-sensor distances, and will use electronic viewfinders.

Mounts and adapters will become available that allow a large variety of lenses, including those requiring electronic connections and power, to be used and autofocused on a mirrorless FF body. This is not really a surprise; after all, third party lens manufacturers, e.g. Sigma, already reverse-engineer AF software (and other technologies) of leading brands, such as Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Sony, so as to allow third party lenses to be used essentially universally. In the future, adapters will allow lenses from Canon, Nikon etc to AF successfully on our FF mirrorless camera ( Kipon Developing Fully Coupled EF Adapter For Micro Four Thirds And NEX ), as well as to submit to electronic control of their diaphragms, etc, on mirrorless FF bodies that permit power to be transmitted from the camera body. (Eventually even in-lens IS may become useable.) The accuracy and speed of AF may not be as good as on bodies specifically designed for those lenses, and this may be one reason for staying loyal to a single camera-and-lens manufacturer.

Of course, the obstacles that stand in the way of using virtually all lenses on a mirrorless FF body, at present, are partly sensor-based. However, the new sensor for the Leica M (type 240), being particularly thin, apparently will overcome this difficulty significantly, although the camera body will not have the capacity to supply power to AF other manufacturers' lenses (not even via suitable adapters). But other makers will develop similar sensors, and they will be used in mirrorless bodies that will also provide opportunities for addressing M-lens colour artefacts electronically.

At least initially, the sensor on our mirrorless body will likely encompass several different formats, including APSC (approximately a 1.5 scale factor), Leica's M8 format (1.3 factor), and perhaps others, right up to FF. For example, a Leica M lens owner might employ their Noctilux on the full sensor, with scale factor 1; their 28mm Elmarit Pre-Asph using the format with factor 1.3; and their 18mm Super-Elmar for the format with factor 1.5. However, as sensor and other technologies advance, the different formats will likely reflect mainly the coverages of different lenses, not the challenges posed by short lens-to-film-plane distances. Of course, the format being used will be shown exactly in our mirrorless camera's electronic viewfinder, perhaps overlaid on the FF format image or perhaps in isolation.

In this brave new world, Leica will likely prosper; happily, there will be no Leica killers. The ability to use Leica's remarkable lenses so widely will be a real asset, at least for those who can afford them. Probably Leica's most expensive, unique lenses will be among the most popular. For example, an interesting, although particularly heavy and expensive, three-lens kit for our new-world mirrorless camera, equipped with electronic viewfinder, might include Canon's 17mm f/4 tilt-shift lens, Nikon's 14-24mm f/2.8, and Leica's 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux. Each potentially would have full electronic control (although it wouldn't be responded to by the Noctilux!), and would be used on the same mirrorless body; and the Nikon lens would autofocus there, via an adapter made in China.

One of the manufacturers' strategic problems will be to ensure a reasonable degree of brand loyalty, which in the past has been enforced through the almost complete incompatibility of lenses among different systems. That is one of many things that will change in this brave new world -- or at least, is conjectured to change, for I'm sure that these presumptions will be contested.

 

[douglasf13]

As exciting as that sounds, Nettar, I'd contend that the portion of the camera population that wants to use alternative lenses on cameras is incredibly small. Not many people are going to want to resort to using really slow to autofocus, PDAF lenses on other mirrorless systems, nor are they going to want to use manual focus lenses. Of course, forum nerds like ourselves would be interested, but not so much in the real world.

That's why I don't see Sony making a FF NEX anytime soon. They would likely need an all new mount, the lenses would be relatively big, since they don't seem too interested in taking the Leica approach to sensor design, and they're likely not going to build a FF NEX to cater to the relatively small population of alternative lens users.

 

[etrigan63]

There are a lot of valid points in the discussion so far. The one thing we are forgetting is that technology is a moving target. Lens designs have certain physical restrictions using current technology. The same goes for sensors. Not too long ago, the idea of phase-det cells embedded in the imaging sensor was sci-fi, yet here they are. High-ISO, low noise characteristics from sensors with small pixel well sizes was the result of too much thinking after drinking are now becoming commonplace.

Materials and engineering sciences are always cooking up new ways to fry an egg. New stepper motor designs, hybrid AF, global shutters, and improvements in computer designed and manufactured lens elements will allow the things were are currently speculating to come to pass.

Let us not forget paradigm shifts as well.

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

As exciting as that sounds, Nettar, I'd contend that the portion of the camera population that wants to use alternative lenses on cameras is incredibly small. Not many people are going to want to resort to using really slow to autofocus, PDAF lenses on other mirrorless systems, nor are they going to want to use manual focus lenses. Of course, forum nerds like ourselves would be interested, but not so much in the real world.

That's why I don't see Sony making a FF NEX anytime soon. They would likely need an all new mount, the lenses would be relatively big, since they don't seem too interested in taking the Leica approach to sensor design, and they're likely not going to build a FF NEX to cater to the relatively small population of alternative lens users.

I think a FF mirrorless camera is inevitable. The public and the market is ready for it, not only some lens nerds. If Sony doesn't make one soon some other brand will.
And when it's there it will be nice for MF lens users as well


BTW This is a statement by COO of Sony Phil Molyneux, so it's in the air.

MW: The VG900 demonstrated that the E-mount lens mount can support a full frame sensor. Building the lenses that can cover a full frame imaging circle at that flange back distance is another matter. We'll see. The benefits of making a smaller camera with a full frame sensor and interchangeable lenses are clear. The E-mount that could do that would be a little different than the E-mount that we know today. But it is possible. Much of the lens geometry you see in the RX1 is what it would take to realize that design.

Michiel

 

[Taylor Sherman]

Reading that interview w/ Phil M, it seems that Sony wants to be seen as "Disruptive". Creating a FF Nex camera would certainly fit that bill.

 

[Vivek]

They certainly do disruptive cameras. The newly made wide zoom gives color casts/purple corners at 10mm on the NEX-7 according to the first tests. I am sure that will not happen on the C3, 5N, 5R or the 6. It is not that they are struggling with the full frame lens designs but are having problems with their APS-C camera bodies. It took them several iterations to come up with the NEX-6 with their customers (us) being the field testers on a very large scale

I do not see a steady progress with applied research and development but rather stabs in the dark. One of these days they will get it and then after a few models they will fine tune the product.

 

[Amatieris]

I also think that FF mirrorless is inevitable. I think that market is also ready for it, just look at the excitement every new amateur FF camera creates on forums. The manufacturers need to upgrade their cameras continuously and making them FF is one of the solutions. People love to have the best image quality they can get. Even though modern FF are very good, people still buy MF cameras. It could be silly, but it is part of the game.
Only couple month ago I thought that FF mirrorless will arrive in a few years, now I am thinking next year. Reminds me of the times when Leica said FF rangefinder was impossible!

 

[etrigan63]

Full frame is the Holy Grail of low-end digital photography. It answers the question "can digital look like film?", partially. MFD has shown us that digital sensors can scale up with very excellent results. Full frame 35mm digital does an excellent job emulating its film ancestors. But why go to all this trouble? Lenses. A great deal of time, effort and money have been spent of the design of current glass. There is a heck of alot of it out in the wild. Sensors had to improve to get the most out of the glass. Asking pros to shed all of their carefully selected, finely crafted lenses would alienate them from the companies they supported. Now, sensors are exceeding the glass and the glass now has to be redesigned. The old glass is no longer up to snuff except in a retro nostalgic kind of way.

Camera designs are at a turning point. A paradigm shift is occurring right before our very eyes. Pro mirrorless cameras are 12-24 months away. The newest generation of photographers have never even seen film. I know, I've taught them. Sure they've heard about it and seen pictures of film, but they've never done anything but digital.

Resist or embrace, it is going to happen regardless. I myself am going all Sony: NEX-6 for daily carry and A99 for pro work.