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Thread: Fun with the RX-1

  1. #201
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Testing for this in full detail will require shooting a series of proper LCC frames through an appropriate diffuser, which I don't have with me but will get to next week. We can then see the effect of using CornerFix and other similar methods on the files. I admire the tenacity of Barjohn in doing the above shots and I think they do show that there's an issue but I agree that it isn't a deal breaker - these things are surprisingly prevalent though of course they do tend to be worse with non-retrofocal designs where the rear element of the lens is so close to the sensor, like with Leica.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Agreed Tim. I am very hopeful this doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker for me. More testing is definitely on order. I am not sure when I will have a chance to do my own tests as I will have to make or acquire an appropriate diffuser to test with. It will interesting to see how the results vary among us.
    Last edited by Mark Gowin; 16th December 2012 at 19:11. Reason: typo

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Agreed Tim. I am very hopeful this doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker for me. More testing is definitely on order. I am not sure when I will have a chance to do my own tests as I will have to make or acquire an appropriate diffuser to test with. It will interesting to see how the results vary among us.
    I'll do it, don't worry, though I did find that when I did the same with the RX100 (the same panic surfaced there for a while, now largely forgotten) the LCC files clearly showed a shift but when you fed them to Cornerfix, it didn't do anything at all. I postulated then that the shifts were below the threshold of what Cornerfix considered worth fixing, but I never managed to bottom it out...
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    This was an issue at first for the M9 with WA's with varying magenta/cyan shift for different cams. With C1 Pro, the LCC corrections could be easily applied during the workflow, after the initial measurements were taken with the WB diffuser. This worked amazingly well, specific to the M9/WA lens combo, and in many cases better than the latest FW update. This is of course in most cases, is no longer needed with the updates to the firmware. I suspect Sony will correct this quickly with a FW update too
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    My auto focus issues may be due to the fact that the camera will fire even when focus is not acquired. I turn off all sound so I am counting on the focus box to indicate focus. The problem is in bright sunshine or even a day like today, my eyesight isn't quite good enough to discern that the box is actually green rather than black after just hearing the lens go through its motion and stop. Since it isn't hunting you think it has found focus but it hasn't. It just gave up apparently. Turning on the sound and waiting to hear the focus confirmation it seems to be in focus each time. Is my camera unique in this operation or is that happening with others too?
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    My camera will take an out of focus image. You can double check misfocus with the flashing focus confirmation icon on the left of the SS/aperture display.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Did you expect a colour shift Vivek? Do you think it's something that could be processed out with a firmware update?

    It's a lovely little camera, and I loved my E-P1 too. .. but it's time to move on I think.

    Cheers

    Brian
    Hi Brian and Vivek
    If I'd given it a moment's thought I would certainly have expected it. I think it's an inevitable result of a wide angle lens with an exit pupil near the sensor.
    Extremely difficult to get rid of all examples of it with firmware (because situations vary so much - focal distance, lighting etc.). I'm not sure that firmware solutions are ideal anyway, because they throw in so many extra variables.

    I would have thought that this was trivial to fix in cornerfix - that's assuming that you ever find it a problem in real life images anyway.

    I'll be interested to see Tim's results - but I agree with Vivek - no kind of a dealbreaker here.

    all the best

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    The glass gets very close to the sensor. this does however not mean, just like with the sigma dp1 and dp2, that the exit pupil, in optical sense, is close to the sensor. My impression was that these lenses are build this way, close to the sensor, almost covering it, to delivers parallel rays of light to the sensor, to improve the quality. especially the Sigma sensor is, as I understand it, sensitive for this.
    and is it not so that the color shift here occurs form one side to the other? In that case nothing to do with the lens, at least not on its own. and flash seems to cure it, once again suggesting it is not just the lens.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Frankly, this is an issue that needs to be examined but is of nearly zero impact.

    Lightroom, Cornerfix and (I believe) Capture One can all easily fix this type of color shading.

    I always expect to make some effort to get the best results from any camera I use. And that includes my D4, which can do almost anything, seemingly without human intervention.

    If I just want really easy images then I don't expect ultimate IQ.

    My guess is that the RX-1 will deliver amazing IQ with minimal work and that only a small number of files will be notably better with the very easy color shading fix.

    And it doesn't bother me any that a $3,000 camera on the bleeding edge of technology has a few hiccups.

    My RX-1 is scheduled for delivery later today.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by waardij View Post
    and flash seems to cure it, once again suggesting it is not just the lens.
    Contrasty flash lighting cures all evils, in general. That isn't the point though. One can not light up a whole gloomy sky with flash.

    I agree that you can not separate a lens to point fingers, especially in a P&S cam.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    It was a snowy day here today. My dog, a tiny Newfoundland that only comes in at a little less than 100lbs, was enjoying the weather. Until she decided sitting in front of the fire was a nicer idea.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It was a snowy day here today. My dog, a tiny Newfoundland that only comes in at a little less than 100lbs, was enjoying the weather. Until she decided sitting in front of the fire was a nicer idea.
    Lovely: - Caspar is keen on snow as well . . . but he's a meagre 30lbs

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Not from the RX1, but from our first Newfoundland who was 150lbs--and I am not a small human being. I have found that lots of dogs love snow.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Not from the RX1, but from our first Newfoundland who was 150lbs--and I am not a small human being. I have found that lots of dogs love snow.
    Kai looks lovely - Oh, okay, you look lovely too nice picture though.

    Yes indeed - I think we've had 11 dogs - nothing as big as your Newfoundland, but looking back I think that they've all liked snow.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Caspar's problem is sitting on tables - not so bad in the garden, but to be discouraged in the kitchen:



    (excuse me, this is off topic as it was shot with a NEX7 - but hey - it's in context )

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Never had a problem with a Newfoundland getting on a table, which is a good thing regardless of the breed. But then again, they are tall enough to see what is going on...

    I am thinking I am seeing a little color shifting going on...

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It was a snowy day here today. My dog, a tiny Newfoundland that only comes in at a little less than 100lbs, was enjoying the weather. Until she decided sitting in front of the fire was a nicer idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Not from the RX1, but from our first Newfoundland who was 150lbs--and I am not a small human being. I have found that lots of dogs love snow.
    Nice photos. Are these crops? I don't see any color shift in this nice white snow.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Nice photos. Are these crops? I don't see any color shift in this nice white snow.
    Full frame, RAW, straight out of the camera with just lens correction in ACR. Now you see why I am a little touchy about color shifts. If they are too sever, then the next six months in Maine become a photographer's nightmare--why do you think I have a black dog.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Caspar on the table is slightly tilted, and slightly cropped. Shashin I don't think there's any significant colour shift (it was with the Sony 18-55 kit lens!). There could be some clumsy processing though.
    Caspar is often on the table - including the kitchen table. He is the only dog we have ever had who appears to have no feelings of guilt or conscience: tell him to get off the table, and he immediately gets off (he's obedient you know). Then turn around and he jumps back up again.
    . . . more seriously, I don't think you should be panicking about colour shifts - if it turns up you can fix it (sufficient to the time thereof).
    I'm fascinated by the RX-1 - but it isn't for me (wrong focal length amongst other subjective problems).

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Jono, thanks. The RX1 was not an easy purchase--I sold 200lbs of gear on ebay to afford it. It certainly is not a camera for everyone. After some shooting today and remembering why I bought it (it is not my only camera), I will be keeping it. The images coming off it are beautiful--and certainly colorful. The second picture of my dog is ISO2000 and no NR. It is a beautiful little camera which is hard to imagine until you meet it in the flesh. With the older brother it is replacing.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by waardij View Post
    The glass gets very close to the sensor. this does however not mean, just like with the sigma dp1 and dp2, that the exit pupil, in optical sense, is close to the sensor. My impression was that these lenses are build this way, close to the sensor, almost covering it, to delivers parallel rays of light to the sensor, to improve the quality. especially the Sigma sensor is, as I understand it, sensitive for this.
    and is it not so that the color shift here occurs form one side to the other? In that case nothing to do with the lens, at least not on its own. and flash seems to cure it, once again suggesting it is not just the lens.
    Yeah, the exit pupils of the X100, DP1, RX-1, etc. are still relatively far from the sensor, although it seems that Sony didn't optimize things as much as they could have, considering the RX-1 has a fixed lens and it is not THAT wide at 35mm. It certainly doesn't bode well for those wanting a FF NEX to use with M lenses, if Sony can't even nail the color shift thing with the RX-1.

    p.s. here's a little bit of insight as to why color shift can be asymmetrical: Sony NEX-C3 first impressions - FM Forums

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    By the way, just read Lloyd Chambers first review of the RX1. His analysis of the lens performance is very positive and worth reading. He rated the lens performance as very sharp with very good micro-contrast from f2-f11 with the optimum at f4. There was virtually no field curvature measured. There is a bug in the firmware where image size changes between f16 and f22. He demonstrates his findings with sample images and toggles between images for illustration. He highly rates the bokeh.

    He points out a few short comings, one of them being that the camera does not open the lens to f2 during AF or MF thus making focus less accurate than it might be if it had to focus with minimum DOF. This seems to be a problem with so many mirror-less cameras. You would think by now they would have fixed this and only actually stopped down the lens just before firing the shutter.

    Another complaint he had was that if the camera is powered off or turns off for any reason it loses its focus set so if you had the camera on a tripod and had preset your focus waiting for some event and you powered off the camera to save battery life and quickly turned it on to take a shot it would not be set to your preset focus.

    Another complaint was the inability to use CDAF to select a focus point on a magnified image provided by focus assist.

    There were a few more minor issues he raised. Somehow he missed the issues raised by Ken Rockwell.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    He points out a few short comings, one of them being that the camera does not open the lens to f2 during AF or MF thus making focus less accurate than it might be if it had to focus with minimum DOF. This seems to be a problem with so many mirror-less cameras. You would think by now they would have fixed this and only actually stopped down the lens just before firing the shutter.
    I believe this is a constraint of the exposure system. There is a loss of accuracy at wide apertures.

    So, he did not agree with Ken. Funny thing is, neither did I...

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Frankly, I don't understand why there would be a loss of accuracy on exposures at wide apertures versus any other aperture. It seems to me that it is a straight forward math problem to convert the value from one to another.

    I didn't say he didn't agree with KR, I said he didn't mention the issues that KR raised. I don't know whether he would agree with KR or not. I know I don't.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Frankly, I don't understand why there would be a loss of accuracy on exposures at wide apertures versus any other aperture. It seems to me that it is a straight forward math problem to convert the value from one to another.
    It has to do with the cone size and shadowing on the sensor at large apertures. Since the engineer was Japanese and I wasn't, I was not able to go into much detail as I raised the same sort of questions.
    Last edited by Shashin; 17th December 2012 at 22:05.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Frankly, I don't understand why there would be a loss of accuracy on exposures at wide apertures versus any other aperture. It seems to me that it is a straight forward math problem to convert the value from one to another.
    This is one big problem that Sony seem to have. It is best they address it and solve it. I am also not sure about their WB calculations and the limited WB range. Incandescent lighting should start with 2000K value and not 2500K. That could be the root of the problem. Nikon do much better job.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    I suspect that there must be more to this than we understand. Most engineering organizations thoroughly dissect their competition's equipment carefully noting parameters selected and behavior and doing whatever level of reverse engineering is needed to provide a better performing competitive product. Further as the sensor supplier they know things about their sensor that companies buying and using their sensors will not know. That is why, as an engineer, this doesn't make sense. There has to be a mathematical relationship between f-stop and shutter speed and WB even if it is not a linear equation. This equation can be applied once the values for one set of values are measured and known to derive any other combination of shutter speed and aperture selected by the user. If the computation is too complex, precomputed values can be entered into tables for use.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    There has to be a mathematical relationship between f-stop and shutter speed and WB even if it is not a linear equation.
    Perhaps. But, life would be easier if it is linear.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    This equation can be applied once the values for one set of values are measured and known to derive any other combination of shutter speed and aperture selected by the user.
    Which is why f/4 is used to obtain the data, but you can make exposures at f/2.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post

    He points out a few short comings, one of them being that the camera does not open the lens to f2 during AF or MF thus making focus less accurate than it might be if it had to focus with minimum DOF. This seems to be a problem with so many mirror-less cameras. You would think by now they would have fixed this and only actually stopped down the lens just before firing the shutter.
    My Fuji X100 was constantly opening and closing the aperture, depending on the light conditions, and it drove me crazy. It adds to shutter lag, and it can also potentially lead to focus shift issues. If the RX-1 works like NEX, then the camera AFs at shooting aperture until the light gets low enough, and then the camera switches to staying wide open. The chattering back and forth in good light with the Fuji really annoyed me.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    He points out a few short comings, one of them being that the camera does not open the lens to f2 during AF or MF thus making focus less accurate than it might be if it had to focus with minimum DOF. This seems to be a problem with so many mirror-less cameras. You would think by now they would have fixed this and only actually stopped down the lens just before firing the shutter.

    I just checked my camera. The aperture does indeed open to f/2 in AF and MF. I have no idea what he is talking about.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Another complaint was the inability to use CDAF to select a focus point on a magnified image provided by focus assist.
    Focus assist is for MF. Why would there be an AF point for MF? If you are using DMF, then the AF has finished and then the operator then adjusts focus in MF in focus assist. Lloyd is starting to sound like Ken...

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Shashin,

    You are mistaken. Set the camera to A mode, set the lens to f4, 1/2 press the shutter so the camera tries to AF on an object. Watch the iris, it does not change from the f4 setting. On any DSLR, focusing is done at the widest aperture and then the lens stops down to the selected aperture just before the shutter opens. You will see that on this camera, that it will not attempt to open the iris until you go above f8. Then it will open to the f8 position during focus and go back to the selected f stop after it finds focus.

    The magnification assisted AF/MF is frequently used on other mirror less cameras. You get a magnified image and this has the effect of creating a smaller focus box that you can precisely place and you press the AEL button to obtain a locked focus. This is very handy for use on a tripod and when setting up for zone or hyperfocal focusing.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    My Fuji X100 was constantly opening and closing the aperture, depending on the light conditions, and it drove me crazy. It adds to shutter lag, and it can also potentially lead to focus shift issues. If the RX-1 works like NEX, then the camera AFs at shooting aperture until the light gets low enough, and then the camera switches to staying wide open. The chattering back and forth in good light with the Fuji really annoyed me.
    Douglas,

    Yes, that is a problem with the X100. I'm not talking about having it do what the X100 does. Se my response to Shashin. On the X100 the iris was constantly changing as the light changed. You did not need to press the shutter button at all. Further it did not go to open (f2) for focusing either which made manual focusing impossible at higher f stops because the DOF was so large you could not tell where the exact focus point was located, even with a magnified image.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Shashin,

    You are mistaken. Set the camera to A mode, set the lens to f4, 1/2 press the shutter so the camera tries to AF on an object. Watch the iris, it does not change from the f4 setting. On any DSLR, focusing is done at the widest aperture and then the lens stops down to the selected aperture just before the shutter opens. You will see that on this camera, that it will not attempt to open the iris until you go above f8. Then it will open to the f8 position during focus and go back to the selected f stop after it finds focus.
    Sorry John, I was reading it another way thinking it could not AF/MF at wider apertures than f/4.

    But did Lloyd actually show that AF at the shooting aperture is less accurate? I have seen no evidence of it, although in low light the AF slows down at smaller apertures, but I am unsure if that is just because of illumination or DoF. I think the comparison of Phase detection in a DSLR to CD in a mirrorless is not a great comparison.

    The magnification assisted AF/MF is frequently used on other mirror less cameras. You get a magnified image and this has the effect of creating a smaller focus box that you can precisely place and you press the AEL button to obtain a locked focus. This is very handy for use on a tripod and when setting up for zone or hyperfocal focusing.
    The Sony function is simply for MF, hence the name MF Assist. They clearly state that. Don't fault an MF function because it works exactly like it should and does not AF. My E-P1 works just like my RX1, so it is not universal. Lloyd might like to have that, but that is not a fault. I am not even sure it is really very useful--what is so hard to use AF and then fine tune with MF Assist. It seems unnecessary to have a magnified AF. And why not praise for the RX1 way of setting up zone focus--put AF on the C button so in manual focus you can get a focus point with AF and then quickly confirm it with MF Assist and then just shoot away.

    Sorry, but there comes a time when nitpicking simply becomes annoying. Ken is just making stupid comments and now Lloyd is just picking at things that are not even worth mentioning and certainly not showing that it is actually significant to the operation.
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  36. #236
    Senior Member The Smoking Camera's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Ok, enough chit chat.
    Here's another typical Waikiki photo.
    Windy, cloudy and light showers but I've taken a vow to never complain about the weather.
    Shot raw only so here is my weak attempt using Lightroom.
    Enjoy.

    f/8
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Joe, when are you updating your signature?
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Joe, when are you updating your signature?
    Now is probably a good time. Thanks for the reminder.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by The Smoking Camera View Post
    Ok, enough chit chat.
    Here's another typical Waikiki photo.
    Windy, cloudy and light showers but I've taken a vow to never complain about the weather.
    Shot raw only so here is my weak attempt using Lightroom.
    Enjoy.

    f/8
    Thank you for posting great pics and using the camera for picture making Whenever a new camera was being announced which pushed technical boundaries, after a first wave of enthusiastic user feedback some obsessed with finding "technical flaws" would take over and blow it up all over the www (M9, FUji X10, XPro1, Nikon 800, etc. etc.).
    Last edited by retow; 18th December 2012 at 21:39.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    nice way to stop the chit chat. more pics please.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Sorry John, I was reading it another way thinking it could not AF/MF at wider apertures than f/4.

    But did Lloyd actually show that AF at the shooting aperture is less accurate? I have seen no evidence of it, although in low light the AF slows down at smaller apertures, but I am unsure if that is just because of illumination or DoF. I think the comparison of Phase detection in a DSLR to CD in a mirrorless is not a great comparison.
    Try and MF the camera at f5.6 or f8. Even with magnified view and focus peaking you will see it indicating focus over quite a large range compared to f2. Purely speculation on my part, but my miss focuses with the camera have all occurred at f4 and above so maybe that is the reason.

    The Sony function is simply for MF, hence the name MF Assist. They clearly state that. Don't fault an MF function because it works exactly like it should and does not AF. My E-P1 works just like my RX1, so it is not universal. Lloyd might like to have that, but that is not a fault. I am not even sure it is really very useful--what is so hard to use AF and then fine tune with MF Assist. It seems unnecessary to have a magnified AF. And why not praise for the RX1 way of setting up zone focus--put AF on the C button so in manual focus you can get a focus point with AF and then quickly confirm it with MF Assist and then just shoot away.
    It's a feature the X100 had and a lot of people liked. Maybe because the MF was so bad. I certainly don't intend to defend Lloyd, it is his opinion.

    Sorry, but there comes a time when nitpicking simply becomes annoying. Ken is just making stupid comments and now Lloyd is just picking at things that are not even worth mentioning and certainly not showing that it is actually significant to the operation.

    I agree. Overall the camera has been a really good camera.

    Below is an example shot at f4 with the focus box on her face.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    I am not sure anyone will find this impressive, but getting natural images of a burning fire is actually quite difficult. It is a really contrasty subject with lots of subtly in the shadows and highlights. Color temperature is tricky as well. This is right out of the camera with some simply tweaking with the highlight and shadow sliders in ACR.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Do all owners here have the EVF, I'm having trouble finding one here in San Francisco!
    Actually I've been searching most of the world via the web, but mostly well known stores!
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    I am just using the rear screen.

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Thanks Shashin!
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Just for a bit of fun--two 35mm lenses and one 35mm camera. And they weight about the same too.
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    I do not have the EVF - just using the rear screen.
    Here is a shot of a Japanese wedding couple at the Sheraton Moana Surfrider.

    f/2
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Beautiful shot Joe!
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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Stunning Joe, do you miss the eye level viewfinder?

    Thanks for sharing

    Brian

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    Re: Fun with the RX-1

    Great shot, Joe. Do you find the camera responsive to your needs, as a quintessential street photog?

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