FF NEX

[Nagas]

I understand what you mean, but the truth is that the lens/sensor combo in the RX1 does produce stunning images, it has, to my eye, a very special and compelling look. And the color shift issue isn´t half as bad as in the Nex cameras, which hasn´t stopped them from selling really well and becoming highly regarded cameras. As I said before, none of the cameras I owned was without some issue. You can either live with them or you can´t.

I believe the RX1 shortcomings are more in it´s concept (fixed focal length, no integrated viewfinder, no articulated screen, etc) that in the mentioned issues, which can be very easily walked around. I guess it´s a matter of wether you are willing to make certain compromises with a camera at this price point and I can very well understand that someone is not willing to do so.

Good light!

 

[Vivek]

And the color shift issue isn´t half as bad as in the Nex cameras, which hasn´t stopped them from selling really well and becoming highly regarded cameras.

I do not think that is correct.

 

[douglasf13]

I understand what you mean, but the truth is that the lens/sensor combo in the RX1 does produce stunning images, it has, to my eye, a very special and compelling look. And the color shift issue isn´t half as bad as in the Nex cameras, which hasn´t stopped them from selling really well and becoming highly regarded cameras. As I said before, none of the cameras I owned was without some issue. You can either live with them or you can´t.

I believe the RX1 shortcomings are more in it´s concept (fixed focal length, no integrated viewfinder, no articulated screen, etc) that in the mentioned issues, which can be very easily walked around. I guess it´s a matter of wether you are willing to make certain compromises with a camera at this price point and I can very well understand that someone is not willing to do so.

Good light!

The color shift issue with NEX cameras is highly dependent on which NEX camera body and which lens you're talking about. Either way, NEX is a better indication of how Sony will proceed with a FF interchangeable mirrorless.

The fixed lens aspect of the RX-1 is exactly what isn't easy to walk around, which is my point. Sony designed a lens that sits deep into the throat, a few mm away from the sensor, yet it has a relatively long exit pupil to sensor distance, and they had the option of custom sensor design and firmware for that lens/sensor combo. With all of those advantages over an interchangeable lens camera, the RX-1 still has a little bit of color shift.

This is going to be a lot more difficult with an interchangeable lens version, and it'll require a big improvement in their sensor design (in terms of receiving oblique light rays,) or the lenses will be pretty large to allow for more telecentricity. They can't just make an interchangeable version of the Sonnar on the current RX-1. Think about how large the Sony/Zeiss 24/1.8 Sonnar for NEX is, and it is designed for only aps-c. A FF version would be relatively huge.

 

[Nagas]

I do not think that is correct.

I could be perfectly wrong, but the magenta cast examples that I have seen online were certainly nowhere near the results of the Nex7 with Contax G28 or 21 or the Cosina ultra-wides(to name just a few examples, plenty more lenses with serious issues), where many photos were basically ruined or needed serious processing to be saved. I havn't seen such a bad example with the RX1 where the resulting image was unusable. No arguing that the issue is there, but it's so mild to my eyes that it's not likely that it will be ruining many real life shots.

The color shift issue with NEX cameras is highly dependent on which NEX camera body and which lens you're talking about. Either way, NEX is a better indication of how Sony will proceed with a FF interchangeable mirrorless.

The fixed lens aspect of the RX-1 is exactly what isn't easy to walk around, which is my point. Sony designed a lens that sits deep into the throat, a few mm away from the sensor, yet it has a relatively long exit pupil to sensor distance, and they had the option of custom sensor design and firmware for that lens/sensor combo. With all of those advantages over an interchangeable lens camera, the RX-1 still has a little bit of color shift.

This is going to be a lot more difficult with an interchangeable lens version, and it'll require a big improvement in their sensor design (in terms of receiving oblique light rays,) or the lenses will be pretty large to allow for more telecentricity. They can't just make an interchangeable version of the Sonnar on the current RX-1. Think about how large the Sony/Zeiss 24/1.8 Sonnar for NEX is, and it is designed for only aps-c. A FF version would be relatively huge.

I understand, it might very well be a challenge. But I am convinced they will eventually come up with something. I am by no means an expert in optics, but something tells me that the FF Mirrorles we are talking about could very well not carry the E mount, which would leave Sony in the very weird scenario of having THREE lens mounts on their range. I could understand serious skepticism towards Sony keeping up with three different lens lines when the majority of Nex users(and many A mount users) feel kind of let down by Sony when it comes to lenses... The other rumour that seems to be running around about a "hybrid" lens mount carrying either E-mount lenses (cropped) OR A-mount lenses via adapter sounds completely wrong, at least to me...

Good light!!

 

[Nettar]

Douglas, I don't think anyone considers that, if Sony produces a small, mirrorless FF camera (and I believe they will, in about a year), it will be perfect in its rendition with all lenses. The question is -- how useful and effective will it be? The answer to this will be in the eye of the beholder, of course, but to many of us, who are quite happy with some of the NEX cameras and enjoy them despite their drawbacks with some lenses, it may well be particularly useful and effective. (I was going to qualify "drawbacks" with "occasional" or "minor," but of course, this too is different for each of us.)

I'm one for whom a conventional DSLR (along with its lenses) is too large to be attractive. I simply cannot take it to many of the places I want to, and I find that the compromises with RF lenses (say) on the NEX are attractive relative to the compromises in size and weight with a DSLR. I think this may be the case with an FF mirrorless camera. Nettar

 

[douglasf13]

Douglas, I don't think anyone considers that, if Sony produces a small, mirrorless FF camera (and I believe they will, in about a year), it will be perfect in its rendition with all lenses. The question is -- how useful and effective will it be? The answer to this will be in the eye of the beholder, of course, but to many of us, who are quite happy with some of the NEX cameras and enjoy them despite their drawbacks with some lenses, it may well be particularly useful and effective. (I was going to qualify "drawbacks" with "occasional" or "minor," but of course, this too is different for each of us.)

I'm one for whom a conventional DSLR (along with its lenses) is too large to be attractive. I simply cannot take it to many of the places I want to, and I find that the compromises with RF lenses (say) on the NEX are attractive relative to the compromises in size and weight with a DSLR. I think this may be the case with an FF mirrorless camera. Nettar

Yeah, but M lenses will be much worse on a FF NEX than what we're seeing on current aps-c NEX cameras, and the VG-900 already shows that to be the case. I don't think Sony is particularly interested in going out of their way to make the cameras compliant with M lenses, and I can only imagine how large the FF Nex lenses will be, considering the size of many of the current, made for aps-c NEX lenses that we have.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but, judging by what we've seen until now, Sony has some work to do.

 

[Nettar]

Douglas, I appreciate your viewpoint, and I don't deny that there are uncertainties. I think you and I tend to draw our compromises somewhat differently, and so we reach different conclusions from the same evidence. I do see your point, but I interpret the signs a little differently.

For example, Sony has learned, from their NEX experience, that their own compact lenses (e.g. the 16mm, but also other lenses -- see photozone's reviews) perform much better if their sensors handle acute light rays in a more friendly fashion. Therefore, to keep their own (hypothetical, I guess) FF NEX lenses within reasonable dimensions, and to optimise those lenses' performance, Sony is motivated to uses sensors of the type that I would like -- even if my interests are as far as possible from their mind. Also, there do seem to have been some NEX models in the past that were marketed with people like me at least partly in mind. Therefore it does not seem that I; or rather, the community of people like me; are completely off their radar. Let me mention too that the VG-900 and RX-1 use sensors that were not designed for compact lenses, which Sony surely would have in mind for any FF NEX.

You can see, I think, that from much the same evidence, I draw an optimistic conclusion, while yours is more pessimistic -- and yet both are argued cogently, I believe.

It's certainly an interesting time to be a photographer, and to attempt to predict the next advances in technology! Nettar

 

[Vivek]

In all likelihood, Sony will come up with newer sensors and will not be using the run of the mills ones.

Only when pushed they look for the need to make things.

I was surprised when the nuclear disaster happened in Japan. Not a single robot capable of being used to do some exploration (in such conditions) was available and they got one gift shipped from Cambridge (where the first Robots were invented/made) for that. Only recently, many Japanese companies have been making robots for such specific tasks.

 

[ptomsu]

As much as I would love a FF NEX be working well with M lenses, I think there is NO reason for Sony to do that. Main reason for a FF mirrorless Sony (NEX) is to build a real modern competitor to the M which offers many things implemented in a better way than on the M and beyond. Only this way they can make sure that their new systems starts flying.

 

[Vivek]

I would love to see Sony coming up with good lenses and a variety of lenses like many others do. If the Pentax FF rumors are correct, it will be one more FF camera other than the Nikon D600 that use the same Sony sensor for better effects and even better prices. I really hope some in Sony think in terms of the overall picture and not in terms of just the sensor or one body or a one flash.

 

[douglasf13]

Douglas, I appreciate your viewpoint, and I don't deny that there are uncertainties. I think you and I tend to draw our compromises somewhat differently, and so we reach different conclusions from the same evidence. I do see your point, but I interpret the signs a little differently.

For example, Sony has learned, from their NEX experience, that their own compact lenses (e.g. the 16mm, but also other lenses -- see photozone's reviews) perform much better if their sensors handle acute light rays in a more friendly fashion. Therefore, to keep their own (hypothetical, I guess) FF NEX lenses within reasonable dimensions, and to optimise those lenses' performance, Sony is motivated to uses sensors of the type that I would like -- even if my interests are as far as possible from their mind. Also, there do seem to have been some NEX models in the past that were marketed with people like me at least partly in mind. Therefore it does not seem that I; or rather, the community of people like me; are completely off their radar. Let me mention too that the VG-900 and RX-1 use sensors that were not designed for compact lenses, which Sony surely would have in mind for any FF NEX.

You can see, I think, that from much the same evidence, I draw an optimistic conclusion, while yours is more pessimistic -- and yet both are argued cogently, I believe.

It's certainly an interesting time to be a photographer, and to attempt to predict the next advances in technology! Nettar

The reasonable performance of the Sony 16mp sensor with more symmetrical wides (and I say reasonable because the GXR M module is still much better in this regard) is likely dumb luck through choice of sensor toppings more than anything else, considering the flagship Nex-7 arrived after the Nex-C3, and the Nex-7 doesn't perform as well in the corners. The VG-900 was also not a good sign, and now even the Rx-1 has small issues.

It really seems like Sony isn't that concerned about the corner performance. In fact, I've been told that even the A900 doesn't perform quite as we'll in the corners as the D3X, due to sensor topping decisions.

As an owner of 3 SLRs and 3 NEX cameras from Sony, that's my concern about it.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

In fact, after thinking about it for a long, long time I think the best solution for me at this point, and looking a Sony's now nebulous future is to pick up a NEX-7 along the new 10-18mm F/4 e-mount lens as a compliment to my A900 (I also own a NEX-5 as well). The NEX-7 would serve as a replacement for my aging A200. This just opens up so many more options for me esp when traveling and or hiking. I love my A900 and Zeiss glass, but sometimes it's too heavy to carry long distances.

Thanks to Santa (in this case, my wife), my future is now!

Sorry for the crappy cell phone pic....

 

[iiiNelson]

My concern like many people who have bought into Sony is long term commitment to lenses. I was an early adopter to the NEX system with the understanding of the limited lenses but got around it by adapting M lenses. My M lenses became my NEX lenses after missing too many shots due to inaccurate autofocus so it's a backup body for my M9 when I need a little extra reach. I also bought into the Alpha system that has very high quality lenses but more bodies than lenses. The lack of commitment makes me doubt Sony but I welcome capable M alternatives.

 

[Nagas]

Back in august David Kilpatrick from photoclubalpha wrote an interesting artice about wether the Nex system should (or could) go full frame. The article is certainly not new, sorry if you have seen it already, but I believe it is relevatnt to the issue discussed here, and certainly interesing read. You can find it here: Will there be a full-frame NEX? | Photoclubalpha .

Good light!!

 

[douglasf13]

Back in august David Kilpatrick from photoclubalpha wrote an interesting artice about wether the Nex system should (or could) go full frame. The article is certainly not new, sorry if you have seen it already, but I believe it is relevatnt to the issue discussed here, and certainly interesing read. You can find it here: Will there be a full-frame NEX? | Photoclubalpha .

Good light!!

Yeah, that isn't really saying much, now that we already have a FF NEX camera, the VG-900, so it is obviously possible to put a FF sensor in e-mount. The question is, how big will the native lenses be? Also, many are interested to know whether it will work well with M mount wide angles (which I wouldn't expect.)

 

[Nagas]

Excuse my ignorance, as I said I am no expert in this matter and have no experience with a digital Leica (I did own an M7 once..). What makes the Leica sensor work ok with their wide angles lenses? I understand that the flange distance is nearly 10mm more with the M mount with regard to the E mount. Would that have anything to do? Thanks.

Good Light!!

 

[douglasf13]

Excuse my ignorance, as I said I am no expert in this matter and have no experience with a digital Leica (I did own an M7 once..). What makes the Leica sensor work ok with their wide angles lenses? I understand that the flange distance is nearly 10mm more with the M mount with regard to the E mount. Would that have anything to do? Thanks.

Good Light!!

No AA filter to cause extra astigmatism, an IR filter that works a little better with non-telecentric light rays (albeit of pretty low quality,) tuned micro lenses, and a whole bunch of lens specific firmware tweaks.

These are all things that Sony is capable of doing. I'm just not sure they're motivated to. I certainly hope I'm wrong.

 

[iiiNelson]

These are all things that Sony is capable of doing. I'm just not sure they're motivated to. I certainly hope I'm wrong.

...and there is the root of the problem. Sony makes amazing sensors but they seem to only be a test bed for future technologies. I can appreciate the R&D and cutting edge steps they take but truly committing and supporting a camera system to maturity is what remains to be seen. If they go FF it's imperative that the system is A or E mount based. A third mount would be a huge mistake.

Look at the backlash Leica is still taking for dropping the R system for the S. Overall it's turning out to be a good move for them to move up market but I'm sure many R shooters aren't convinced yet the M (Type 240) is the "R solution" they wanted.

 

[douglasf13]

...and there is the root of the problem. Sony makes amazing sensors but they seem to only be a test bed for future technologies. I can appreciate the R&D and cutting edge steps they take but truly committing and supporting a camera system to maturity is what remains to be seen. If they go FF it's imperative that the system is A or E mount based. A third mount would be a huge mistake.

Look at the backlash Leica is still taking for dropping the R system for the S. Overall it's turning out to be a good move for them to move up market but I'm sure many R shooters aren't convinced yet the M (Type 240) is the "R solution" they wanted.

The big difference between Sony e-mount and Leica R in this regard is that R lenses are still mechanical. Moving forward, Sony can make as many different all-electronic mounts as they wish, because it would just require simple adapters with electronic contacts to pass full functionality from one mount to another. It wouldn't really be a big deal.

 

[Vivek]

It may be that Samsung will beat Sony with their FF mirrorless cam justy like they did with their NX.

Surprise: Samsung may come out with a FF mirrorless before Sony! | sonyalpharumors

I hope there will be a few improvements on the FF Samsung compared to their NX. I also hope they change the camera registry to ~20mm.