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A7 or A7r

A7 or A7r


  • Total voters
    147

lambert

New member
Looking at the infinity shots I cannot find anything sharp in the corners/borders at any distance, I do not think it is a matter of field curvature.
Lack of infinity sharpness is due the overcast/hazy conditions. They're also shot at ISO400 and in JPG. My M9 would not have fared any better in these same circumstances.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hmmmmmm

Reality check? - will the A7r be the same?

A7 Torture Test with M mount Lenses
Reality checks are always a good thing Jono :thumbup:

Based on specifications, I suspected that the A7 may not fare well with some, if not many M wides. Although, the 21/1.4 ASPH (a lens I own), looked correctable at f/8. I'll never know since I wouldn't opt for an A7 ... a camera I see as more of a general consumer camera most likely to be used with the lenses made for it. That Sony bundles a kit lens with the A7, and doesn't with the A7R, reinforces that speculative opinion.

What is not perfectly clear is whether the following Sony sensor description found under the A7R's overview specifications applies to both cameras:

"Every gapless on-chip lens (OCL) is designed and positioned to cover every pixel and eliminate the spaces between the micro-lenses to collect significantly more light. Moreover, each on-chip lens is optimally positioned depending on its location to accommodate the sharper angle of light entering the periphery, which is caused by larger sensor dimensions being teamed with the E-mount's short flange-back distance".

If the above is only applicable to the A7R sensor, I wonder how any Sony FE W/A will do on the A7? Perhaps that's why FE35mm is currently the widest prime and is only f/2.8, and the 24-70 is a f/4? Although, Zeiss tends to be conservative with max apertures on more mass produced W/A optics (i.e. the ZA 24/2 as opposed to a f/1.8 or f/1.4 available from other makers). It is also conceivable that FE lens corrections are built into the A7 imaging system. Obviously, standard E mount lenses wouldn't suffer from edge and corner effects since the camera auto defaults to an APSc crop.

My over-riding interest in the A7R is for use with my Leica M50/0.95 Nocti and 75/2AA (with a milder concern for the 35/1.4 ASPH and 90/2.8) ... the minute I get the A7R camera I'll test those lenses in the manner I tend to use them, and if found wanting will wave bye-bye as the UPS fellow takes it back to B&H. Of course, I'll try the 21/1.4 ASPH ... which is great on the MM. However, since I shoot mostly people, it rarely gets used and I should sell it to someone who would get more out of it than I do.

- Marc
 
Lack of infinity sharpness is due the overcast/hazy conditions. They're also shot at ISO400 and in JPG. My M9 would not have fared any better in these same circumstances.
My point is that at the edges level there is no single plain that is acceptably sharp, also in the foliage shots it is pretty evident, so field curvature (which I never noticed on my Summicron 28) is not responsible for the lack of sharpness.
 

philber

Member
I am going for the A7R. Landscapes and cityscapes move slowly enough even for slow AF:)
Besides, Michiel is going for the A7R, so, if I chose a different camera, there might be a chance that one of my best pics could be as good as one of his worst. With the same cam, no chance...:)
Also, the perspective of 36Mp fed by a Lux 50 and Cron 75 is just irresistible.
 

Annna T

Active member

fotografz

Well-known member
My point is that at the edges level there is no single plain that is acceptably sharp, also in the foliage shots it is pretty evident, so field curvature (which I never noticed on my Summicron 28) is not responsible for the lack of sharpness.
Personally, I wouldn't place too much stock in any single report, good or bad, on a camera not yet in production form ... some M240 pre-production images looked pretty bad, but seem to have gradually improved as it moved into production and people began working with it.

The worth of negative reports are that they can flag things to look for when testing something yourself, in the manner you tend to shoot.

Frankly, for absolute input, I tend to initially favor lens/sensor tests that eliminate as many variables as possible. Then followed by real-world use to determine how other factors weigh in on the IQ.

For me, it is a moot point since this is obviously the direction that Sony is taking to compete with Canon and Nikon in the 35mm realm ... and all of my 35mm gear is Sony ... so this would likely be the next step up in resolution anyway using a combination of ZA optics I already own, and a smattering of FE lenses of interest for paying work. If I can also use some M specialty lenses, I'll be a happy snapper.;)

- Marc
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a rather good repro cam should we need to replace or double the output of our current D800e. Thinking about the lack of mirror box and as such wear and tear from shooting 1-2000 frames per day, every single day. Could mount pretty much any macro lens we could imagine, superb manual focus abilities. Cheap too and easy to fly with for when we shoot abroad (got an upcoming large job in Italy). Have to say though, the 60mm macro we shoot on the D800e is a lens worth buying larger cameras for. It really is truly excellent.
 

jonoslack

Active member
The 28 Summicron has significant field curvature and (even on the M9) needs to be stopped down to at least f5.6 before it is sharp across the frame.
Not at infinity it doesn't. . . . . it doesn't (any longer) have pink corners either.

. . . As Vivek says - maybe the A7r will be better, but Leica need to use firmware to make these lenses work properly - with microlenses or shallow wells, I can't really see how Sony can magically avoid this problem, but hopefully they have.

all the best
 
V

Vivek

Guest
It is quite likely they have, Jono. The only question is how will the camera know when a Summicron 28/2 is mounted, for example.

People (elsewhere) appear upset to hear that Raw files will be worked in a such a way to avoid problems (such as the 28mm Summicron).

Sony has special processing (A7r) to avoid diffraction limited softness:



Detail reproduction technology and diffraction-reducing technology

Two new technologies contribute to remarkably realistic images and bring out the full depiction performance of α lenses. Detail reproduction technology depicts details more faithfully with a more natural sense of dimension by preventing the overemphasized outlines that plague most digital images. Diffraction-reducing technology suppresses the effects of diffraction, which causes points of light to appear blurred especially at small aperture settings (large F-numbers). By taking the aperture setting into account, this technology faithfully restores clarity to points of light and other fine details: It brings out the potential of the lens, 36-megapixel image sensor and optical low-pass filter-free design so you can enjoy deep focus shooting of landscapes and more with a higher sense of clarity.
From: http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-us/products/o4j5/index.html#features
 

jonoslack

Active member
It is quite likely they have, Jono. The only question is how will the camera know when a Summicron 28/2 is mounted, for example.
It won't know - I guess it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that they put in a lens table - or even subscribe to the 6 bit codes (although I guess that would break Leica's patents).

Honestly though - spending money to facilitate use of other people's lenses when you want to sell your own is a big step in altruism (and not very Japanese). I reckon that these adapted microlenses are to improve performance with Zeiss and Sony lenses - not M lenses, and I'm sure that they'll do a grand job. Just as Leica have now done with the M.

Personally I'm not convinced that Sony would be looking to Leica M users as a very large proportion of the prospective user base for this camera - it may seem different here, but if it's going to be a success, then it's got to appeal much more widely than that. Even if they nabbed ALL the M users on the planet, it's not going to sell even a small proportion of what Sony need to sell with this camera.

As you know, I'm completely sold on this kind of camera as the future (loving my E-M1, order placed with A7r) . . . and I think that in expanding the market place Sony will do Leica a favour as well as themselves (just as the Fuji X100 did Leica a favour with respect to the X2).

All the best
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Not at infinity it doesn't. . . . . it doesn't (any longer) have pink corners either.

. . . As Vivek says - maybe the A7r will be better, but Leica need to use firmware to make these lenses work properly - with microlenses or shallow wells, I can't really see how Sony can magically avoid this problem, but hopefully they have.

all the best
Yeah Jono, Leica has a vested interest in making their M lenses work on their new cameras, Sony/Zeiss do not.

Even lens correction profiles in Lightroom for Sony & Zeiss DSLR optics are noticeably anemic compared to Canon and Nikon. Although, with some trial and error exploration, I found corrections for other makes and models of lenses that also did a damned fine job of correcting some of my ZA lenses. :thumbup:

It remains to be seen what the A7R does, and what range of M lenses work ... then what can be done with Sony's lens correction app , or what users come-up with. I'm always amazed by the ingenuity of users to fill in the vacuums a manufacturer leaves.

All TBD.

- Marc
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I agree that there has to be proper F E mount lenses, Jono.

Zeiss have said that they will release 3 FE manual focus lenses with chips to transfer EXIF data soon (2014).
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
While I am also looking to use the A7r for my M lens collection with hopefully great outcome, I definitely see the real goal to have a new set of FE lenses, which support all the great features of the A7r natively.
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Guy, everyone should petition Sony for a medium format mirrorless a-la Mamiya 7, and then it'll be a dream come true.
It might be a wonderful camera. But I think the technology is not mature for that, even if Sony do great steps in imagery.

First, It should be a Cmos sensor with electronic shutter (Imagine what sort of curtain such camera would use, and the noise).

Second, If no electronic shutter >> a whole line of leaf shutter lenses.

Well... we are not here for now, maybe in some years, probably 2018/2020.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Sony blog. Saw this and not had a chance to read through it in full.

Your
Hmmm. As far as I can see there is absolutely no mention of M mount lenses. Not to suggest theis is intentional, but it does suggest that support is not at the top of their list. Hardly surprising!
 

lambert

New member
Not at infinity it doesn't. . . . . it doesn't (any longer) have pink corners either.

. . . As Vivek says - maybe the A7r will be better, but Leica need to use firmware to make these lenses work properly - with microlenses or shallow wells, I can't really see how Sony can magically avoid this problem, but hopefully they have.

all the best
Fair call. There's little doubt that those that use Leica wides on the A7R will have their work cut out if they want to match the M240's performance which is specifically designed to play nicely with these lenses.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well no one would promote another company for use on there product. So no as far as Sony is concerned Leica don't exist as they want you to buy their brand. Totally understandable. It's up to a community like this with end users to test and report their findings as too what is workable or not. I totally get that so I would not expect Sony to bring up any brand but theirs.

In short we are the beta or better said the guinea pigs. Hell been down this road on every system.
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
The A7r is one I will seriously consider - small, light and high resolution. As for the A7, I might choose the Pentax K-3; not FF, but an optical finder and IBIS and not that much larger.
 
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