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A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...

vjbelle

Well-known member
A shame the Sony chooses to bury their heads in the sand..... That said I have yet to see any FPS camera that doesn't exhibit some shutter shake at some level. Nature of the beast....

Victor
 

nikonf

Member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

If we really want to look at shutter vibration, we should do some tests on the Pentax 6x7. Even with the mirror lock-up function, the shutter creates a great deal of vibration.
Here is the kicker: Somehow, I was able to create sharp photographs with it.
Go figure!

Shocking ... :wtf:
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

Bart, very funny! The message I am getting is very simple.

After eliminating the mirror the mechanical shutter needs to be replaced by an electronic one.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

If we really want to look at shutter vibration, we should do some tests on the Pentax 6x7. Even with the mirror lock-up function, the shutter creates a great deal of vibration.
Here is the kicker: Somehow, I was able to create sharp photographs with it.
Go figure!

Well, better lucky than smart! Certainly my preference! :D
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

Shocking ... :wtf:
Glad I bought the A7r instead of the M240 ... :rolleyes:

Kind regards.

Me too! Excellent educational choice! ;) :banghead:

The question now is, how to spend the money saved? :confused:
Ah, my choice: nMP from Apple! :cool:

I am considering the fully loaded 6-CPU version.
However, that is approaching the M240 price! :eek:
Oh well.
 

mjm6

Member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

Damn, his award-winning photo of a bolt was ruined, RUINED, I tell you.

He has officially left the realm of absurd and is now entering the land of insane.

We know there clearly are shutter movement impacts on sharpness in the a7r and apparently the M240 as well. But what I don't understand is why most people seem to feel it is a failing of the camera? Yes, ideally, there would be less of an impact on the image (or none), but shutter and mirror movement has been a specific issue with cameras since they were added as 'features'. This is not new and most camera test reports back in the film days would include information on the shutter speeds to avoid for this reason.

It seems that we have forgotten that, and now presume that this problem is something to bitch and moan about, call the company and complain about, and whatever else.

Far better is to do what K-H has done; test the camera and lens with the mounting arrangements he intends to use and learn how to overcome the issue with good shooting technique.

This camera is simply too light on it's own to dampen the shutter. When the camera design moves to a fully electronic shutter, this will probably be an issue of the past, but until then, some precautions are in order.


----Michael
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

Thanks Michael.

Now that everybody's sensibilities have been heightened to this shutter vibration issue I think it's only a question of time until the transition to all electronic shutters will be completed. That will presumably happen once the technical challenges have been solved at economical cost, also for high MP sensors.

Personally I am looking forward to that day! ;)
 

cunim

Well-known member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

Damn, his award-winning photo of a bolt was ruined, RUINED, I tell you.

He has officially left the realm of absurd and is now entering the land of insane.

We know there clearly are shutter movement impacts on sharpness in the a7r and apparently the M240 as well. But what I don't understand is why most people seem to feel it is a failing of the camera? Yes, ideally, there would be less of an impact on the image (or none), but shutter and mirror movement has been a specific issue with cameras since they were added as 'features'. This is not new and most camera test reports back in the film days would include information on the shutter speeds to avoid for this reason.

It seems that we have forgotten that, and now presume that this problem is something to bitch and moan about, call the company and complain about, and whatever else.

Far better is to do what K-H has done; test the camera and lens with the mounting arrangements he intends to use and learn how to overcome the issue with good shooting technique.

This camera is simply too light on it's own to dampen the shutter. When the camera design moves to a fully electronic shutter, this will probably be an issue of the past, but until then, some precautions are in order.


----Michael
Michael, your comment well summarizes a school of thought. I must disagree. Of course all FP shutters vibrate. The problem is that some cameras - the A7r among them - shake unpredictably. Naturally, Sony look at the "all focal plane shutters are crap" argument and say "ours is no crappier". It would be more useful if comments on the internet give Sony positive incentive to fix what is a real problem, rather than an excuse not to fix it.

I do not know Lloyd or his site but, OK, so it's a bolt. Makes no difference if it's a bolt or a moody landscape. If you are competent, whatever you image should be captured as well as it can be. If there is blur it should be because you want it there. Subject, composition, artistry all load on top of that basic competence. Know your tools. This unpredictable shutter vibration makes it harder to know the A7r. Once I get beyond the two lenses I have tested extensively, I am insecure because the camera may or may not degrade sharpness. I just want things to be easy.

Shake bad. No shake good. Sony - you fix shake.

I fully agree with your last paragraph.
 

fmueller

Active member
Re: Shutter Shock, Shake, Vibrations!

Michael, your comment well summarizes a school of thought. I must disagree. Of course all FP shutters vibrate. The problem is that some cameras - the A7r among them - shake unpredictably. Naturally, Sony look at the "all focal plane shutters are crap" argument and say "ours is no crappier". It would be more useful if comments on the internet give Sony positive incentive to fix what is a real problem, rather than an excuse not to fix it.



I do not know Lloyd or his site but, OK, so it's a bolt. Makes no difference if it's a bolt or a moody landscape. If you are competent, whatever you image should be captured as well as it can be. If there is blur it should be because you want it there. Subject, composition, artistry all load on top of that basic competence. Know your tools. This unpredictable shutter vibration makes it harder to know the A7r. Once I get beyond the two lenses I have tested extensively, I am insecure because the camera may or may not degrade sharpness. I just want things to be easy.



Shake bad. No shake good. Sony - you fix shake.



I fully agree with your last paragraph.

Lloyd is very rigorous in his testing. Reminds me of the rigorous testing done by hifi magazines, at least in days past. Lloyd's testing has as much to do with photography as hifi equipment magazines have to do with music. He LOVES testing cameras and lenses.. I hate it, with a passion. It's photographs that I love. I expect my equipment to work as advertised. I'll test it when new to verify it and it's almost a process distasteful enough to make me swear off new equipment.

I've seen Lloyd's unmistakable, and repeatable demonstration of shake. He is the master of testing. I'll work around it. I'm not impressed with his attitude, he seems like a rather loutish fellow.


www.fredmuellerphotography.com
 

mjm6

Member
Cunim,

I was making light on his moaning that he had a week's shooting ruined by camera shake...

However, I suspect that he had not properly braced the camera to produce the level of performance he was expecting. If he had, he would not have the compromised images.

It doesn't take much to do things to address this properly, but you need to do some testing to understand when to be applying more rigorous methods than a simple lens mount on an inadequate tripod, etc.

You say that the shake is unpredictable? From what I have seen, it is consistently in a range of exposures duration that goes from about 1/15 to around 1/125 plus or minus. That feels pretty predictable to me.

My point is that I would have been more surprised if there were NOT shutter shake issues in some range of shutter speeds without decent camera bracing. It's a case of accelerating and decelerating mass. What makes it worse (or more apparent) is probably two things: the low mass of the camera itself, and possibly an inexpensive shutter mechanism that doesn't use anything to help counteract the forces of the movement. In this respect, Sony should probably have worked harder to avoid the problem.

---Michael
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
I agree with those who state that pretty much all FP shutters cause some shake. This just isn't news.

Those of us who shoot the Phase One DF, for example, know full well to avoid 1/10 to 1/60th/sec when using longer lenses. (Even with leaf shutters - the FP shutter still has to open). The Hasselblad 2000 I once owned had FP vibration at longer speeds.

The only camera I own that seems truly vibration free is a Rollei 2.8 F - no moving parts at all except for a light leaf shutter in a relatively heavy body!

Work around! It's much easier in this day of auto ISO than it was in the film era. And just for the record, I'm having no vibration problems with the a7r and M glass as long as I stay shorter than 1/60th.

I have just got the EA4 Adapter which I will test with my A mount glass tomorrow. I suspect the mass of the ZA 24-70, for example, may provide different results.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
More about shutter shock and related stuff.

Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. Post #4142

Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. Post #4143

It seems the story is more complicated and the proposed delay between closing the shutter and shooting an image might not solve the problem. :eek:

I will continue with my approach to couple as much mass/inertia as necessary to the camera body itself and additionally dampen vibrations of the support structure, i.e. tripod, ballhead, and rail. ;)
 

algrove

Well-known member
K-H
I keep revisiting here in hopes things have calmed down and there is a solution. Lost track of everything said here, but what if 1/250 would be a minimum shutter speed for outdoor shooting with the 19 to 180 range?

Or is the a7 the answer due to shutter mechanism? Guy seems to have very nice shots with even wide r lenses on that camera, but did not catch shutter speeds he used.

Also he seems to have been using no tripod, unless I misunderstood.
 
If I recall correctly Guy (or someone else) said that it's more of a problem with lighter lenses meaning something like Leica M lenses. Also seems to be different shutter speed problems with different lenses, with problems mostly between 1/20 and 1/60 range.

I think no probs reported with native lenses, so might be partially also about too much tolerances with current adapters?

//Juha

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I hit a shutter issue on a vertical shot with my Zeiss 135 at 1/50 th. I just readjusted to actually go slower.i think it is a partial issue with shutter vibration as it is with most FP shutter there seems to be a weak spot. But I also am going to call this a adapter issue as well. My Novaflex adapter is like a rock but metabones I had lose mounts and such which makes it separate from the body. Other than that things seem okay for the moment. The Leica R 280 seemed okay but with a 2x it was a issue. So we still need a firmware delay implemented to settle the bounce out. It's there. But it can be minimized some by changing shutter speeds using a good adapter and frankly this really is not a tripod issue but a balance issue on long lenses.
 
Just did my first real "snapshots" with my A7R yesterday. Went out for a walk with the family and took the camera + 55/1.8 with me. At first glimpse the pictures turned out quite nice, so nothing to complain there. it was bloody cold, just -6C but the wind chill was the kind that gets to your bones.. not one single prob with the camera. Unlike my wife's old nex-5 - apparently the cold killed the lcd in it for good!

Cloudy but bright due to snow & ice. Shot at manual with auto iso and lens wide open, shutter speeds around 1/3000.

Quick 5 minute stab at the images with Aperture shows I'll need to work on color/wb some more.. reds seem a bit on the bright side and I need to figure out how to tame them.

Also my old mb pro 13" will die woth those raws, despite the ssd + 8GB ram. Next try with the far more powerfull imac..

Should probably try Lightroom also, though I only have Lr 4..

Pictures later, should any of those be worthy of this forum ;-)

//Juha
 
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