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Shutter Vibration

Knorp

Well-known member
Actually, that would be very interesting to see. Please try it and post.

Long years of evil living have made me less the rock than I used to be, and hand holding 90mm is just beyond me now.

I do plan to buy the fattest, softest cat I can find and mount this camera permanently to it. That will damp it down fine and the only hard part is teaching the cat to set the camera controls.
Certainly will give it a try, one excuse beforehand: I'm Leica M shooter too ... :p :rolleyes:

My apologies for the missing EXIF data, since OSX 10.9 it seems disappeared from my JPEGs ... :(

This was shot at about 4,0 mtr distance: 90AA, ISO100, F/2.0, 1/60th
You have to believe me on my blue eyes (well actually they're greenish).





Kind regards.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I wanted see if a Rodagon lens I have unused is any good under the conditions I would use it. Handheld and at waist level. Lots of bricks. Perfect! :)


Sony A7R, Rodagon 60mm, f/4, 1/125s, ISO640

crop


Works OK to me.

So, it is shorter than 90mm but the fact is the Rodagon (optimized for 1/5X and not infinity!) was mounted to the cam via extension rings and a Hawk helicoid. No idea about tolerances of the various bits involved and/or how loose they are.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
For me, there is only one solution. I won't shoot below 1/250 for my Leica 90mm nor will I shoot above 1s. I have experimented with 1s, 2s, and beyond with perfect results - no visible vibration at 100% pixels. So.... I usually shoot at 100 ISO which means that if I see a shutter speed of 1/30 I have two choices. Either I shoot at ISO 800 which moves the shutter speed to 1/250 or I attach a 6 stop ND and shoot at 2s. An 800 ISO image from this camera is just fine and easy to work with - in fact all the way up to 1600 ISO is really good but I'm being really picky. At 2s I stay at ISO 100 and have a perfectly clean image that doesn't suffer from any shutter vibration. This all works out well for me as I shoot a lot of city scapes, architectural detail, gardens and stuff that doesn't move.

Victor
 

cunim

Well-known member
My gosh, Bart. I am amazed. What hands! Vivek, the 90 cron is new and feels like a piece of stone.

At any rate, looks again as if the support structure - in this case Bart - has a major effect.

First set of pics, lens scale: A comparison at 2m on a Foba stand. I used both the 135 Elmar (on its own plate) and 90 'cron with camera AS mount. Briefly, both lenses look pretty good. Some blurring at 1/60. If I had a mirror to lock up I would. However, no gross movement leading to multiple exposures.

First set of pics, lens scale: Now on Gitzo 5 series/cube, with the 90 'cron at f3.5. Second image is 0.5 sec, third is at 1/60th. Again, some blur but not a killer. About the same as the Foba.

Second set of images, books. Still on Gitzo but at 3.5m. Second image at 0.5 sec. Last at 1/60. Same general observations.

Whew, I think I've had about enough of this. So, where are we at the end of it all? Looks like tripod mounting (still like my kittypod) will require great care. Hypothesis - the more massive the better. This is not something that normally goes with a such a small camera. However, if that small camera has a shutter that could double as a guillotine, maybe.

What I suspect now is that the light and very rigid Novoflex tripod (solid steel legs and head) resonated with the shutter. That may be a danger for any light and rigid mounting system. If you are using 3 series Gitzo, for example, and you get the gross movement that I found with the record shots, you may need to increase the mass, extend or retract the legs, and/or put the tripod on a softer surface. Anything to alter the resonance.

This is all a royal pain, but doable. Guidance for my own tripod use:

- Carry 5 kg of tripod and head to tame 1 kg of camera and lens Aargh. Maybe not.
- Use shutter speeds at least 1/fl, preferably faster. Should do this anyway.
- Use shutter speeds slower than 0.5 sec.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Peter, As I suspect (looking at the books) that you and I have similar backgrounds (albeit very different areas), let me suggest one thing to you, leave the science and enjoy photography. These two things are very different. It took me a while to realize this but it is better late than never!
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
My god..... a series 5 Gitzo and the shutter vibration is still there:shocked:. I'm staying with my recommendations in my previous post which allows me to use a series 1 Gitzo with my favorite Acra head. There will be a fix down the line either with some firmware or new body.

Victor
 

Shac

Active member
I was always under the impression (from various "web gurus") that putting a light camera on a light tripod was not the way to go but YMMV
 

Ron Pfister

Member
I've finally had time to test one of the lenses I was curious about:

Lens: Leica APO-Elmarit-R 1:2.8/180 with tripod collar STA-1
Aperture: f/4.0
Adapter: modified Voigtländer F Adapter (baffle removed, shimmed)
Shutter triggering method: 10s self-timer
Tripod: RRS TVC-33
Tripod head: Arca d4
Target: self-made, consisting of line grids (0.5 x 40mm lines) at varying orientations
Object distance: approx. 3.5m
Procedure: exposures from 1/800s to 1.6s at 1/3EV intervals

Results: pretty much terrible, but I suspected this going in (the combination of Arca d4 and Leica STA-1 is far from rock solid, in my experience with the D800E). The only usable exposures were 1/800s, 1/640s and 1/160s, and none of them were perfectly still. The rest showed varying degrees of blur. Below 50% crops of the 1/160s and 1/60s test images.

Looking at the different grids across all test images, the orientation of the vibration is not always the same, but the bottom left grid seems to generally fare pretty well (although the 1/60s sample below does not bear this out). I'll test this lens again when I get my variable ND filter, comparing against the D800. I want to be able to shoot all tests at ISO100 to avoid bias due to differing noise levels affecting sharpness.



 

GrahamB

New member
Michael Reichmann's comment regarding a7r "shutter vibration". (Sony A7r Report)

"I suppose that my response to this is simply..."So what else is new?"

All camera are subject to mirror shock (assuming they have a mirror), shutter shock, and release shock. Tripods that resonate, ball heads that are not toght enough, mounting plates with slop, etc. We've been living with and debating the issues for decades.

The A7r has shutter shock at some shutter speeds with some lenses in some situations. This can be said for virtually every camera ever made.

Ever shooting with a long lens on a Mamiya 645? Ever shoot with ANY lens on a Pentax 67. These are simply things we learn to live with and accomodate.

To read that people are considering not getting an A7r because of shutter shock just blows my mind.

In my annoyance at this new form of pixel peeping all I can say is..."On your way to getting a life, try and also get out and do some photography. Stop worrying about minutia". Cheech.

Michael"

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Graham
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Michael Reichmann's comment regarding a7r "shutter vibration". (Sony A7r Report)

"I suppose that my response to this is simply..."So what else is new?"

All camera are subject to mirror shock (assuming they have a mirror), shutter shock, and release shock. Tripods that resonate, ball heads that are not toght enough, mounting plates with slop, etc. We've been living with and debating the issues for decades.

The A7r has shutter shock at some shutter speeds with some lenses in some situations. This can be said for virtually every camera ever made.

Ever shooting with a long lens on a Mamiya 645? Ever shoot with ANY lens on a Pentax 67. These are simply things we learn to live with and accomodate.

To read that people are considering not getting an A7r because of shutter shock just blows my mind.

In my annoyance at this new form of pixel peeping all I can say is..."On your way to getting a life, try and also get out and do some photography. Stop worrying about minutia". Cheech.

Michael"

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Graham

I find that very sensible! Kudos to MR! :thumbs:
 

Ron Pfister

Member
I would hold against that that testing your gear first so you know what works and what doesn't is certainly worth while and serves to prevent disappointment (and perhaps wasted money/loss of income) when in the field.

I would like to add that inferring what might be the right approach for you from other people's test results is fraught with peril, because each component of the support setup as well as the technique used have a major influence on the outcome. Everyone interested in this matter should do their own testing, and I think this is a good place to share results. Those who are not can simply ignore this subject.

Finally, I'd like to add my subjective impression that the A7R's shutter vibration at certain shutter speeds may very well have similar consequences as the mirror shock of some DSLRs (!). I'm planning to do a test to see if this is really the case.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guess I just don't get quoted anymore. Lol

My response

Well its not uncommon to see vibration errors with Focal plane shutters. I read the reviews and this really is a fairly common issue. Case in point, I did this test with a Phase One DF body and a Phase One 150 D and Phase One 300mm 4.5. Obviously locked down like a elephant sitting on it and mirror up and 3 second delays with several subjects and the bottom line anything faster than 1/30 or slower than than 1/8 is not any visible vibration issues but at 1/20 and 1/15th being the worst it is clear as day there is a double image vibration issue. I have yet to do this test on a Nikon and not knowing the root cause of it but I do have a good guess as there is either a FP lag in the timing or some type of bounce in the shutter but it is there for sure and anyone trying this will most likely see it as well. I posted this test awhile back on GetDPI but heck if I can find it now. Personally I think its a common issue with focal plane shutters. I also agree there is a ton of whining on it and thats fine but Im also surprised that some folks don't know of this issue to start with and FP shutters.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Michael Reichmann's comment regarding a7r "shutter vibration".

"I suppose that my response to this is simply..."So what else is new?"
I think my answer to that would be "mirrorless cameras with quiet shutters" - which is something the A7r could have been. I was hoping to get over the mirror slap and clattering shutter effects of dSLR cameras (let alone MF)

Let's face it - when you press the shutter on the A7r you can feel it - there is an obvious vibration. This is not true of lots of other modern cameras.

I'm not saying that the shutter vibration on the A7r is a show stopper (I simply don't know).

What I'm saying is that there is a continuum here from something like the Ricoh GR upwards , and if we are having to compare the A7r with MF with very large shutters to find something equivalent, then this really isn't an optimum situation.

I agree with Ron that it's important to understand your gear and be aware of it's limitations - but sometimes the limitations seem to me to make it not worth the candle. . . . . . and if you need to carry a 3kg tripod to make up for the fact that your 450 gm camera has a shutter that shakes it . . . . .
 

cunim

Well-known member
Guess I just don't get quoted anymore. Lol

My response

Well its not uncommon to see vibration errors with Focal plane shutters. I read the reviews and this really is a fairly common issue. Case in point, I did this test with a Phase One DF body and a Phase One 150 D and Phase One 300mm 4.5. Obviously locked down like a elephant sitting on it and mirror up and 3 second delays with several subjects and the bottom line anything faster than 1/30 or slower than than 1/8 is not any visible vibration issues but at 1/20 and 1/15th being the worst it is clear as day there is a double image vibration issue. I have yet to do this test on a Nikon and not knowing the root cause of it but I do have a good guess as there is either a FP lag in the timing or some type of bounce in the shutter but it is there for sure and anyone trying this will most likely see it as well. I posted this test awhile back on GetDPI but heck if I can find it now. Personally I think its a common issue with focal plane shutters. I also agree there is a ton of whining on it and thats fine but Im also surprised that some folks don't know of this issue to start with and FP shutters.
Ya know, Guy, it seems that most people agree with the "just go out and take pictures" philosophy that Michael espouses. Not all. In my view, the major problem with photography is that everyone just goes out and takes pictures. Never mind. I do find that if I replace Michael's word "Cheech" with the phrase "By crackey", it gets the flavor of his comment across better.

Thanks to Michael and to you for pointing out that vibration is a major issue with most focal plane shutters. Those of us spoiled by tech cameras need to keep that in mind. Clearly, however, very few reviewers or early adopters were aware that the A7r exhibits shutter vibration at so many settings, and that it is so very sensitive to mounting variables. In a camera with 36MP and no mirror lockup, fp shutter vibration becomes less of a characteristic and more of a design flaw.

Sony knew about this issue and released the camera assuming it would not reduce their market by much. They seem to have been right. Now Sony knows that some of us care. Might help them set priorities for the next iteration.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I don't disagree and it seems the main reason many are going for the Sony are to bolt other lenses on it with that alone as a additional factor your also adding adapters to the mix which creates a double mount. Too me that adds double trouble. Like the Phase its good to test these issues out and keep the results in your head when in the field to try and avoid certain shutter speeds. It's why I did the test in the first place was to know where the weak points are. Now will some of this issue go away when using Sony FE lenses by themselves. Its a test that needs to be done when they come out. I won't argue the design flaw either as I believe your correct in that comment. I have been watching this cam and have yet to pull the trigger on it as I have been reading things about it. Now do I think we are obsessing over it than yes I think to some degree we are. But that's also part of being a pixel peeper too. Bottom line for me is be aware of it and note your test results and if its not working than get rid of it or as always find the work arounds. One other note and my advice here is stay away from the cheap adapters as well. Since your dealing with a double mount setup you want the strongest adapter you can buy. Does not guarantee you won't get this issue popping up but it will lesson the issue at hand. Outside the FP issue itself now you have to be extra careful with these adapters. Might be worth noting as we read reports from folks which adapters are causing the least amount of issues. Also I do agree given Sony has Mirrorless why the choice of shutters and why its so loud, loud also means vibration too.
One other note we need to be aware you are beta testers on a new system, we all been down this path with Leica and others and it's not a fun deal. My middle name is Guinea pig and it sure ain't fun sometimes. My observation is if you want to use Leica glass it seems to me the R glass is the easier path. With one lens out for Sony its a extremely poor release plan. Does Leica S come to mind. I'm reviewing it again next month but now its a system that has a ton more going for it. Hopefully Sony will get there and maybe the second version of this will be some lessons learned as well. I'm not going to say just go shoot the damn thing and forget about it, what I am saying is learn the workarounds first. I'm totally behind the folks that are testing and reporting the results, more data the better. But I should add some of this is common with FP shutters so we need to take account for that as well.BTW having the biggest tripod on the planet really does not help either its there in the first place anyway. It certainly helps identify it easier.
 
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