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Shutter Vibration

V

Vivek

Guest
I will quote you! :)

Guy Mancuso said:
Guess I just don't get quoted anymore. Lol

My response

Well its not uncommon to see vibration errors with Focal plane shutters. I read the reviews and this really is a fairly common issue. Case in point, I did this test with a Phase One DF body and a Phase One 150 D and Phase One 300mm 4.5. Obviously locked down like a elephant sitting on it and mirror up and 3 second delays with several subjects and the bottom line anything faster than 1/30 or slower than than 1/8 is not any visible vibration issues but at 1/20 and 1/15th being the worst it is clear as day there is a double image vibration issue. I have yet to do this test on a Nikon and not knowing the root cause of it but I do have a good guess as there is either a FP lag in the timing or some type of bounce in the shutter but it is there for sure and anyone trying this will most likely see it as well. I posted this test awhile back on GetDPI but heck if I can find it now. Personally I think its a common issue with focal plane shutters. I also agree there is a ton of whining on it and thats fine but Im also surprised that some folks don't know of this issue to start with and FP shutters.
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V

Vivek

Guest
I know but your presence and participation is highly appreciated, Guy. :)
 
cunim

cunim

Well-known member
After all the kafuffle re vibration, I thought I would summarize my feelings. YMMV

The dual-exposure type of blurring is completely disabling. The good news is that it is avoidable. It results from resonance in very rigid and light mounting systems. For example, my Novoflex Basic Ball tabletop tripod is very subject to this type of problem. This beautifully made little item has solid steel legs. They ring when you tap them. The A7r taps them. In contrast my old and floppy Leica tabletop tripod (the kind with the legs that screw into each other) is non-resonant and actually works, kinda. Just don't touch it or even breathe on it. If your tripod vibrates with a sharp tap, the A7r is probably not a good tool.

The other shutter-induced blur is the usual kind (Gaussian blur), leading to an expanded COC as opposed to multiple images. The specific speeds that lead to vibration vary with mounting system. Do not expect to achieve 36MP resolution when this blur is present. For most types of shooting, this is not a major factor. When it matters, avoid shooting between 1/fl - 2/fl and about 0.5 sec. I suspect that the A7r has more metal in it than the A7 because Sony is trying to tame vibration.

Re tripods, I should correct my earlier statement "The more massive the better". In fact, I have not seen a great deal of difference between a lightweight Induro with a Markins ball head, a 5 series Gitzo with a Cube, and a Foba studio stand with a Sinar head. As long as you are not exciting resonances, the blur is about the same.
 
V

vjbelle

Well-known member
cunim said:
Re tripods, I should correct my earlier statement "The more massive the better". In fact, I have not seen a great deal of difference between a lightweight Induro with a Markins ball head, a 5 series Gitzo with a Cube, and a Foba studio stand with a Sinar head. As long as you are not exciting resonances, the blur is about the same.
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Agreed...... I notice no difference between my very light weight Gitzo Traveler and My Series 3 Gitzo and Z1 head. If the camera is in vertical position it is much worse but no matter both orientations are affected. I'm sure by now that Sony is aware of the chatter and hopefully they can come up with some kind of firmware fix.

Victor
 
V

vjbelle

Well-known member
Guy Mancuso said:
Guess I just don't get quoted anymore. Lol

My response

Personally I think its a common issue with focal plane shutters. I also agree there is a ton of whining on it and thats fine but Im also surprised that some folks don't know of this issue to start with and FP shutters.
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Well, Guy, its not common with the D800e. There are no visible manifestations that I can see at 100% pixels with longer lenses ( 85mm and up ) - None! I also don't consider the inability to use longer lenses at any shutter speed between 1s and 1/250 with the camera in a vertical position on a tripod whining..... I call it a design flaw..... and Sony should fix it!

Victor
 
V

vjbelle

Well-known member
Guy Mancuso said:
I just bought one so ill test it as well. I wonder if they can do this through a firmware fix.
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The more I think about this I just don't know how they can fix this shutter by firmware. Anyway..... you will see that this is not a little issue and since you use longer lenses this could be a big deal for you. With the camera in the vertical position on ANY tripod you will find that at 90mm and up that all shutter speeds between 1s and 1/250 are unusable with the biggest offenders between 1/20 to 1/160. To be really clean you must use 1s or longer or 1/250 or shorter. My workaround, for now, is a 6 stop ND and when I hit 1/60 at ISO 100 I can either go up to ISO 800 or put on the ND and drop down to 1s....... or just shoot longer lenses on my D800e.:D

The camera itself is very sexy and you will love many things about it - especially the focusing features. Good luck....;)

Victor
 
Ron Pfister

Ron Pfister

Member
I think there is at least potential for improvement by firmware changes. Since the A7R is a live view camera by design, and because it does not feature an electronic first curtain shutter, the shutter sequence is the following:

1.) the shutter closes
2.) the first shutter curtain exposes the sensor, beginning the exposure
3.) the second shutter curtain obscures the sensor, ending the exposure
4.) the shutter opens again to expose the sensor, allowing live view

4 is irrelevant to this discussion, since it happens after the exposure is complete. However, something *can* be done about 1, at least for tripod shooters:

I think this curtain should close immediately when pressing the shutter, even if you're using the self-timer. I'm quite sure that such a feature combined with a 10s self-timer setting would help things quite a bit. And while we're at it, Sony, please add 3,4 and 5 second self-timer settings. Thanks much! :)
 
S

Schmiddi

Member
Well, there is one thing that could be done by firmware: when using the 2s delay when pressing the shutter the shutter could close. Then wait 2 seconds, take picture. So something like mirror lockup in "good old time"...
Andreas

(Ron was faster with similar idea :) )
 
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Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Kind of what I was thinking. There has to be a way to solve this. Not to question anyone but is there something in the menu settings that folks are overlooking. I can't comment since I have not seen anything yet. I just played with a A7 in the store but was more looking at focus peaking and such. Okay that stuff is cool as heck. Loved it and a person that hated EVF stuff I walked away pretty impressed.
 
Ron Pfister

Ron Pfister

Member
No, Guy, unfortunately there isn't. The types of settings available in the menu system demonstrate that Sony wasn't quite thinking of the needs of users like us. But we have to tell them that we want their camera to succeed for the type of shooting we do. Please post all your niggles in the thread linked to below, and please also 'like' the ones posted that you agree with:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49575-a7-a7r-suggestions-improvements.html

Edit: perhaps the above thread should be sticky, so Sony can easily find it if they roam in this corner of the 'net...
 
Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I will do Ron and somehow we have to get the word to Sony. Hell this is a freaking computer and they should be able to put a damn delay in it or something that can solve this.
 
Ron Pfister

Ron Pfister

Member
The only thing that can truly solve it is an electronic first curtain, but this appears impossible due to characteristics inherent in the current Sony 36MP sensor design (reset too slow or something of that nature).
 
V

vjbelle

Well-known member
Well, I started a case with Sony and am supposed to hear from higher-ups within 24 hrs. I like the idea of the shutter closing when using 2/10 second delay. That would take one of the vibrations out of the equation and maybe it would be enough. Sony should be able to do this.

Victor
 
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