Shutter Vibration

[vjbelle]

After reading the latest blog and tests by Lloyd Chambers for the A7r I decided to check out for myself just how much vibration occurs with my camera. My test lens is a very sharp Leica 90 Apo f2 Summicron-M. This lens is capable of very sharp images - a real joy to use. Tripod is Gitzo 3 series with Arca Z1 head - sturdy stuff. Target f/stop was 1/50, 1/60, 1/250. Images shot both vertically and horizontally. I used a RRS small plate on the bottom of the camera since there really isn't a dedicated L-plate yet. I shot tree trunks at 50 feet, indoor images at 30 feet and 20 feet and still am amazed at the results. At 1/250 images remain sharp - really sharp! At 1/60 or 1/50 the images show movement and, to me, are unusable. There was also a difference between portrait and landscape with portrait being even more blurred. This is an incredible disappointment for me and makes the camera truly handicapped. There are many times when I would be using 1/50 - 1/80 shutter speeds. Common shutter speeds for me since I shoot at lower iso's. I compared this to the same images shot with my 800e with a Nikon 85mm 1.8. Same shutter speeds except that with the Nikon there is no visible image degradation. Of course mirror lock up was used and 2 second delay but that's it. I also used a 2 second delay with the A7r but with very different results. I could post images but what is the sense? You really have to experience this for yourself if you are at all concerned. As far as I am concerned the camera is completely crippled with longer lenses...... more than likely going back. A true shame.....

To add insult to injury I shot the same images with my Alpa/IQ180 and 150mm Digitar on my trusty Gitzo series 1 traveler tripod with Acra head. Light stuff that is nowhere near as sturdy as the Gitzo 3 and Arca Swiss. These images are crystal clear - tac sharp. I'm just really bummed out with this revelation. I really wanted all of this to work out. Again...... a true shame.

Victor

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Drop your Phase DF into the 1/20 zone with a long lens and I guarantee you will see vibration. Get to 1/8th or 1/30 and its fine. Don't quote me but I believe its the focal plane shutters just have a lag in the travel time.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

He meant the Sony. He just posted the start of the thread in the wrong forum. I just moved it to the correct one

 

[fotografz]

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49550-a7-a7r-too-light-post554425.html

- Marc

I have even sharper stuff from a M75/2AA.

 

[Vivek]

After reading the latest blog and tests by Lloyd Chambers I decided to check out for myself just how much vibration occurs with my camera. My test lens is a very sharp Leica 90 Apo f2 Summicron-M. This lens is capable of very sharp images - a real joy to use. Tripod is Gitzo 3 series with Arca Z1 head - sturdy stuff. Target f/stop was 1/50, 1/60, 1/250. Images shot both vertically and horizontally. I used a RRS small plate on the bottom of the camera since there really isn't a dedicated L-plate yet. I shot tree trunks at 50 feet, indoor images at 30 feet and 20 feet and still am amazed at the results. At 1/250 images remain sharp - really sharp! At 1/60 or 1/50 the images show movement and, to me, are unusable. There was also a difference between portrait and landscape with portrait being even more blurred. This is an incredible disappointment for me and makes the camera truly handicapped. There are many times when I would be using 1/50 - 1/80 shutter speeds. Common shutter speeds for me since I shoot at lower iso's. I compared this to the same images shot with my 800e with a Nikon 85mm 1.8. Same shutter speeds except that with the Nikon there is no visible image degradation. Of course mirror lock up was used and 2 second delay but that's it. I also used a 2 second delay with the A7r but with very different results. I could post images but what is the sense? You really have to experience this for yourself if you are at all concerned. As far as I am concerned the camera is completely crippled with longer lenses...... more than likely going back. A true shame.....

To add insult to injury I shot the same images with my Alpa/IQ180 and 150mm Digitar on my trusty Gitzo series 1 traveler tripod with Acra head. Light stuff that is nowhere near as sturdy as the Gitzo 3 and Arca Swiss. These images are crystal clear - tac sharp. I'm just really bummed out with this revelation. I really wanted all of this to work out. Again...... a true shame.

Victor

Could you explain your post and what you were trying to do? I got lost when I got to "Target f/stop was 1/50, 1/60, 1/250."

Also, why are the images "really" sharp at 1/250s when the files are presumably compressed lossy files?

 

[vjbelle]

Sorry if my post seems confusing. I am mearly pointing out that the shutter for the A7r vibrates a lot and manifests itself mostly around 1/50 or 1/60 shutter speeds. It is gone by around 1/250 and at speeds 1/5 or longer. This is using a 90mm lens. Shorter lenses mitigate the shutter shake - longer lenses show it more. The A7r is very crippled because of this. My 800e does not have these issues. All of this is documented at great length at Diglloyd - paid for subscription.

Victor

 

[vjbelle]

Drop your Phase DF into the 1/20 zone with a long lens and I guarantee you will see vibration. Get to 1/8th or 1/30 and its fine. Don't quote me but I believe its the focal plane shutters just have a lag in the travel time.

Yes...... I found out about the shutter shake with the DF very quickly. Couldn't use my 150 lens at all in the danger shutter speed zones and sent it back to Dave at CI. I don't use the DF at all... it sits on a shelf. I can use my Alpa on a flimsy Gitzo Traveler tripod and get tac sharp images at any shutter speed and/or focal length. There is nothing like a leaf shutter.

Victor

 

[Slingers]

I would be interested to see your images from this test. Are they available somewhere?

 

[Vivek]

Sorry if my post seems confusing. I am mearly pointing out that the shutter for the A7r vibrates a lot and manifests itself mostly around 1/50 or 1/60 shutter speeds. It is gone by around 1/250 and at speeds 1/5 or longer. This is using a 90mm lens. Shorter lenses mitigate the shutter shake - longer lenses show it more. The A7r is very crippled because of this. My 800e does not have these issues. All of this is documented at great length at Diglloyd - paid for subscription.

Victor

Victor, If I pay subscription then I would read such a review before buying anything (that is the whole point of the subscription isn't it?). You can't blame Sony or the review, you have to blame yourself for not waiting and reading.

I am oblivious to the problem you cite and the review and in my hands, the A7R seems to work just fine, as I expect it to.

 

[vjbelle]

Victor, If I pay subscription then I would read such a review before buying anything (that is the whole point of the subscription isn't it?). You can't blame Sony or the review, you have to blame yourself for not waiting and reading.

I am oblivious to the problem you cite and the review and in my hands, the A7R seems to work just fine, as I expect it to.

Wrong...... I can blame Sony for putting such a crippled shutter in this camera and not in the A7. If it works for you good for you. We shoot very differently. Put your camera on a tripod with a long lens (90mm or above) and shoot between 1/50 and 1/100 and see for yourself. I shoot very little hand held. I wanted a small travel camera. Horses for courses!

Victor

 

[Georg Baumann]

Well this could be verified with the 70-400 from a tripod.

Anyone up for it?

I am also somehwat concerned about a possible shutter induced blur impact.

 

[Vivek]

Did it cost you anything in terms of money? Even here in the EU, these cams come with a 30 day no-questions-asked-return-for-full-refund privilege! :shocked:

Wrong...... I can blame Sony for putting such a crippled shutter in this camera and not in the A7. If it works for you good for you. We shoot very differently. Put your camera on a tripod with a long lens (90mm or above) and shoot between 1/50 and 1/100 and see for yourself. I shoot very little hand held. I wanted a small travel camera. Horses for courses!

Victor

 

[waardij]

This problem is not unique to Sony. in general an electronic first curtain is a blessing when working on a tripod. The d800 has a lot more mass to absorb shutter vibration, but I expect when used at say 1/30th in portrait orientation, there will some softness as well. in my experience, portrait mode is more sensitive for vibration, probably due to the shutter being at a 90 degree angle to the tripod.

 

[Vivek]

Well this could be verified with the 70-400 from a tripod.

Anyone up for it?

I am also somehwat concerned about a possible shutter induced blur impact.

Georg: Check this and how the problem got solved (for the OP, for some others, their bible and paid subscription is still the word).

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49569-shutter-shake-macro.html

 

[Georg Baumann]

Georg: Check this and how the problem got solved (for the OP, for some others, their bible and paid subscription is still the word).

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49569-shutter-shake-macro.html

Thanks for the link Vivek!

 

[vjbelle]

Did it cost you anything in terms of money? Even here in the EU, these cams come with a 30 day no-questions-asked-return-for-full-refund privilege! :shocked:

No..... of course not. I have 30 days to return the items for a complete no questions asked refund. That certainly is not the goal. This has nothing to do with money...... It has to do with design. I shoot to print. From start to finish on my 9900. I don't post much on the internet. Sony could have put the A7 shutter in this camera. That camera has an electronic first curtain which can result in a vibration free exposure. Don't ask me how it works.... That's what has been reported. Why Sony chose to include this clunky shutter is beyond me.... More than likely will be replaced in the next A7rxx version.

Victor

 

[vjbelle]

This problem is not unique to Sony. in general an electronic first curtain is a blessing when working on a tripod. The d800 has a lot more mass to absorb shutter vibration, but I expect when used at say 1/30th in portrait orientation, there will some softness as well. in my experience, portrait mode is more sensitive for vibration, probably due to the shutter being at a 90 degree angle to the tripod.

You are very, very right. Vertical orientation is the big offender. Completely absent when I shoot with my 800e under the same conditions. More than likely from the mass of the camera - as you state.

This may be mitigated with a dedicated Sony/Zeiss lens that could take advantage of the anti-shake camera feature - only available for the Sony lenses. That may be enough to ward off the shutter vibration - but the real fix is an electronic shutter.

Victor

 

[Ron Pfister]

...Sony could have put the A7 shutter in this camera. That camera has an electronic first curtain which can result in a vibration free exposure. Don't ask me how it works.... That's what has been reported. Why Sony chose to include this clunky shutter is beyond me.... More than likely will be replaced in the next A7rxx version.

I believe the shutter mechanism is the same in the A7 and A7R. The A7 can be configured not to use the electronic first curtain shutter, AFAIK. The reason why this feature is absent with the A7R is that the 36MP sensor apparently does not allow sufficiently fast or uniform re-setting. Instead, it is re-set behind the closed shutter curtain, and the two mechanical curtains determine the exposure entirely. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[cunim]

Victor, your observations lead me to try a Novoflex Basic Ball tabletop tripod with the same lens and Novoflex M adapter. I screwed this very solid little tripod directly into the bottom of the A7r and shot on a heavy desk. Pretty much the same result. Very noticeable motion blur at 1/30 and 1/20. Pretty much gone by 1/50 and 1/10.

I suppose I should get the Novoflex ASTAT, but if the vibration is internal to the camera it won't help. Any reports on the ASTAT?

 

[Ron Pfister]

I suppose I should get the Novoflex ASTAT, but if the vibration is internal to the camera it won't help. Any reports on the ASTAT?

Yes, see the aforementioned tests carried out by Lloyd Chambers. He used the ASTAT-NEX for two of his tests. Tripod collars are notorious for making vibration issues worse, due to the seesaw arrangement of camera and lens with the mass usually concentrated at either end.