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Shutter Vibration

Viramati

Member
I have to say that this whole post has me somewhat confused. Surely if you used a SLR with any long lens without image stabilisation you would have to up your shutter speed because of 'mirror slap' and on better quality SLR you can lock up the mirror to mitigate the problem. So surely 'Mirror slap' would have the same effect as 'shutter slap'. So the problem as I see it is that on the A7r you have no mode that equates to 'mirror lock-up' but with the A7 you do as you can have the electronic first shutter.. I hardly feel this is a reason to slam the camera just use a higher shutter speed.
 

turtle

New member
After looking very carefully over my 50 ZM planar tests, my view is this (and I reserve the right to change it, if I get different results next time ;) I cannot see any change in resolution resulting from shutter vibration. I CAN see a change in centre resolution resulting from a change in aperture.

The shots at F8 and with shutter speeds in the danger zone from my 90mm tests (1/20-1/60th, roughly) are less sharp on centre than those shots at 1/320th... however, those shots were shot at a slightly higher ISO and wider aperture (about f5 I recall). it is very clear that the reduction in central resolution is a result of aperture changes and not vibration, because the peripheral sharpness is commensurately lower than the F8 shots (which had weaker centres).

If Chambers is having real issues with the 55 1.8 FE, I am wondering if this is due to the lens being longer, or something to do with his tripod rig vs mine?

Regarding his central premise that 'professionals need need cameras that have no quirks', I think this is both untrue and out of kilter with the reality of professional work. While I completely agree that this issue needs to be fixed and is a pain in the butt for some people, the real issue is 'cost benefit analysis' for everyone. No quirks is better, but its rare we get perfection. Everything is compromised somewhere.

The fact is that ALL pros go into EVERY shoot, with compromises and maybe some (or a number of) quirks. If they are any kind of a pro they know where the weaknesses (because they know their kit) are and work around them as best they can. If a pro decides a bit of kit is not working for them, then they move on (or don't buy it in the first place). We know our lenses and apertures, DOF and focal length (and differences between lenses of the same FL even on the same format).

We all make decisions based on what we need and are prepared to tolerate. The assertion that the A7R is unsuitable for professional use is total rubbish. I'd love to see him decide to tote his D800 and lenses up mountains instead of an A7R kit, for example. I'd personally put up with some vibration workarounds for sparing myself that particular misery, loss of fluids, larger pack catching the wind.... the list goes on.

Hopefully Sony will be able to improve it with firmware, but Chambers and his supported posts are the ones who do not understand the concept of personal choices. There seems to be an authoritarian streak in some of his proclamations. Disagree with him and 'you're not a real pro'....
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree that talk is a bunch of bullshit. I just dropped 7 k into this system and I'm a Pro. I do not like these people talking for me. I do my talking with getting the job done and done well. It's why I do NOT pay for reviews. They got to sell something, hype works.

Pisses me off, he is not a Pro with clients writing checks. There I said it. Same for a lot of these guys. I said that too. Flame suit on
 
V

Vivek

Guest
But, Guy, he is a professional tester! :D

Don't let the true believers burn you down! :) They do take some time off from shooting charts and bricks to browse the net! :ROTFL:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If your technique is good, vibration is subtle. We are looking for something that is like the difference between a grade A lens and a grade B lens. Both can take great pictures and without careful comparison most people would not notice (or care about) the difference. Shoot. Enjoy.

Some of us are just not tuned that way. Why bother to lock up the mirror on your pro camera? Why care about getting a 36MP sensor? In some applications and to some people it matters.

Under controlled conditions I can detect vibration with the 90 cron in blind testing at 100% confidence. I have not bothered to do controlled testing with the 50R cron or FE55. Informally, I do see shutter vibration with both lenses.

I do not expect the A7r to match the my tech cameras. However, it can make me happy when everything is working well. I use care to avoid vibration, and select lenses that do not smear. Worth it for the moment but I wish I didn't have to be so careful. Simple is good.

In a year or so we will see pundits referring to the A7r as "innovative but flawed" and will all be looking forward to the next new thing.
I think the same can be said about every camera system ever offered ... because none of them are perfect. As comedian Gilda Radner said when informed she had a terminal illness: "It's always something."

So we could just "freeze up" and never get anything to shoot with because maybe the next thing will be better :ROTFL:

I appreciate others posting that this or that lens/mounting system shows vibration ... luckily, I don't have a 90 cron or 50 cron and have no plans to get either. However, this forum is populated with a lot of landscape shooters ... where the rest of the world is shooting people and moments where content is ever changing and mutable in approach. Thus folks like Vivek can flood the "fun with" thread with successful examples from this camera using a mind boggling array of lenses.

Corner smear with some M lenses? Oh well, now you get to shell out $7,000 for a M240 to avoid that, but then deal with an "innovative but flawed" camera due to a thin IR filter and color performance requiring IR filters and special color profiles requiring a degree from MIT.

Why care about a 36 meg sensor? Well, it isn't just that it is 36 meg ... it is a better high ISO camera than anything else I have, or am likely to get in the near future. Higher shutter speeds are better than lower ones no matter what or how the camera is held or supported ... because shutter shock isn't the only thing that effects acuity ... unless you shoot test charts in an enclosed area with a solid floor on a locked down, sand bagged camera stand, and the subject is either dead or an inanimate object.

User shake, and subject movement isn't conducive to 1/30 or 1/50 or (depending on the lens) even 1/100 anyway. I've lost more images to those two than I'll ever attribute to shutter shock ... NOW I can finally use a higher shutter speed in lower light ... AND at 36 meg not have to enlarge that higher ISO image as much as with a 24 meg camera.

When I take this pup into the studio, flash duration determines acuity and shutter speed is meaningless. That is a huge world of application where this camera set to its lowest ISO will sing a song that may well and threaten many established systems.

Those two things alone make the price/performance ratio one of the best out there now ... and since NOW is when I am shooting I'll leave it to others to wait for the next "better" thing ... which I can guarantee will be flawed in some way or another.

- Marc
 

turtle

New member
That's it Marc. This camera is so damned sharp with good lenses that should were ISO 100 to give me a shutter speed of 1/20 with my 90mm, I'd have no hesitation either:

drop to ISO 50, if the range of the scene allowed me to give up DR and speed. 1/10th is v sharp. Or//


Increase to ISO 500 and shoot at 1/100th. Its still absurdly sharp and noise is all but irrelevant. The only time I would be upset is if I absolutely had to shoot at base ISO to get my full 14 stops of DR and its not a static subject that allows me to shoot a second exposure, but how likely is that?

I bet Sony will regard this camera as a real breakthrough and improve the issue with a firmware fix if this is indeed possible.

I'm so impressed with mine, that I am seriously tempted to add an A7 for the non tripod work... and when the A7R is on a tripod you have a bit of time to think through your plan for staying out the shutter speed danger zone when shooting with affected rigs.
 
Its long been my observation that there is little overlap in the skills needed in order to be prolific as:

a. a talented photographer
b. a professional photographer
c. a photographic gear tester

The skills as I seen them in order to be prolific in these each of these are for:

a. talent and the ability to preserver at the art and craft
b. ability to run a business and get clients to pay you for your product
c. ability to be rigorous, methodical and with an attention for the borderline irrelevant minutiae

Lloyd Chambers isn't possessed with great photographic talent (IMHO) and he doesn't earn a living from selling his photographs but he does have a penchant for being anal enough to find any flaw with a product no matter how small or large it may be.

Now one can look at this result, acknowledge that for the situations and subjects he found the issue with its there and then determine that it doesn't apply to their photography, either style or subject and move on (i.e. which is what I've done with a whole bunch of stuff Lloyd has said over the years). However, belittling him or what he does because what he does for a living "measure up" in your value system is ignorant at best and jerky at worst.

I say this with all due respect of course :)

I agree that talk is a bunch of bullshit. I just dropped 7 k into this system and I'm a Pro. I do not like these people talking for me. I do my talking with getting the job done and done well. It's why I do NOT pay for reviews. They got to sell something, hype works.

Pisses me off, he is not a Pro with clients writing checks. There I said it. Same for a lot of these guys. I said that too. Flame suit on
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Aravind, Nice prose. :)

Here is the problem. There is bunch of contributors here who share their independent experience that directly contradicts (to put it mildly) the so called findings.

Why not you and your chambership brethren acknowledge that instead of dismissing it summarily or ignoring it?

That is not courteous.
 

GrahamB

New member
However, belittling him or what he does because what he does for a living "measure up" in your value system is ignorant at best and jerky at worst.
I've performed tests with my a7r and lenses. Vibration problems with my 90/2.8 Tamron macro, and 70-200/2.8 G Sony were indiscernible.

Here's some full size strips, shot with my Sigma 400/5.6 APO telemacro and Sony LA-EA3 adapter, using the lens collar, mounted on a Gitzo 3 series tripod, with a RRS BH-55 head, triggered with the Sony wired remote. As many are aware who've use one, the Sigma is a consumer grade lens. The collar and foot are far from "pro grade".

Yes, the 1/80s and 1/100s images are a little softer than the 1/250s example. Would anyone notice without a direct comparison?

When one performs one's own tests, and the results differ so much from the reported results of Mr. Lloyd, I don't think it's unusual to question the competence or agenda of the person yelling "fire".

Graham

 

kuau

Workshop Member
My head is officially spinning now....
So I have an A7 coming from B&H with the FE 35mm and Voigtlander NEX to M adaptor.
I will also be using my Zeiss 50/2 ZM and 85/4 ZM. That's it 3 lens kit.
I guess my question is forgetting about this shutter vibration is an issue or is not an issue,
realistically don't you still need to shoot the A7R on a tripod to really benefit from 36mp?
I could never get tack sharp images with my D800/E hand holding it unless maybe 1/500 sec or above.

I am just trying to keep it real here. Of course I would love 36mp don't get me wrong. Yet I am trying to break away from always shooting on a tripod
 

GrahamB

New member
realistically don't you still need to shoot the A7R on a tripod to really benefit from 36mp?
I'm delighted with my images shooting the a7r handheld. Judging by their images, I think Vivek and other's who frequently post their images in the "fun with a7/a7r" would also answer affirmatively.

Ultimately, you're the only one who can answer your question. You might want to order an a7r to test along side the a7. Keep the model that best suits your needs.

Graham
 

fotografz

Well-known member
My head is officially spinning now....
So I have an A7 coming from B&H with the FE 35mm and Voigtlander NEX to M adaptor.
I will also be using my Zeiss 50/2 ZM and 85/4 ZM. That's it 3 lens kit.
I guess my question is forgetting about this shutter vibration is an issue or is not an issue,
realistically don't you still need to shoot the A7R on a tripod to really benefit from 36mp?
I could never get tack sharp images with my D800/E hand holding it unless maybe 1/500 sec or above.

I am just trying to keep it real here. Of course I would love 36mp don't get me wrong. Yet I am trying to break away from always shooting on a tripod
Who said every situation requires 36 meg of retina slicing acuity?

If one took a Canon 5DMKIII and shot it at ISO 6,400 to get a great "of the moment" shot ... would that be using the camera's sensor to its greatest ability? Of course not.

I've heard the same argument regarding use of MFD cameras ... didn't stop me from shooting ISO 800 or 1600 hand-held to get a shot ... but I still had the choice to bolt it down on a tripod and shoot native ISO 100 if I wanted. The concepts are not mutually exclusive.

IMO, that is "keeping it real."

- Marc
 
My head is officially spinning now....
realistically don't you still need to shoot the A7R on a tripod to really benefit from 36mp?
Might depend on your own hand stability and age. For me, no. I get very sharp, detailed images handheld with the 55 f/1.8 pretty reliably at 1/80s.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Its long been my observation that there is little overlap in the skills needed in order to be prolific as:

a. a talented photographer
b. a professional photographer
c. a photographic gear tester

The skills as I seen them in order to be prolific in these each of these are for:

a. talent and the ability to preserver at the art and craft
b. ability to run a business and get clients to pay you for your product
c. ability to be rigorous, methodical and with an attention for the borderline irrelevant minutiae

Lloyd Chambers isn't possessed with great photographic talent (IMHO) and he doesn't earn a living from selling his photographs but he does have a penchant for being anal enough to find any flaw with a product no matter how small or large it may be.

Now one can look at this result, acknowledge that for the situations and subjects he found the issue with its there and then determine that it doesn't apply to their photography, either style or subject and move on (i.e. which is what I've done with a whole bunch of stuff Lloyd has said over the years). However, belittling him or what he does because what he does for a living "measure up" in your value system is ignorant at best and jerky at worst.

I say this with all due respect of course :)
Meh, like it or not, use of the word MORON will be a lightening rod.

Trying to categorize photographers and their skills into nice little cubicles is an over-analizing trait best left to file clerks and bureaucrats.

I know people who are all three of your subdivisions, and some that would claim none.

Who's to say whom is a talented preserver of the art. You, and your value system?

Who's to say that a professional photographer isn't the above? History is peppered with them.

I know photographers who are rigorous and relentless in testing any gear they may depend on, finding the flaws no matter how big or minute, then get on with it keeping that in mind.

- Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Its long been my observation that there is little overlap in the skills needed in order to be prolific as:

a. a talented photographer
b. a professional photographer
c. a photographic gear tester

The skills as I seen them in order to be prolific in these each of these are for:

a. talent and the ability to preserver at the art and craft
b. ability to run a business and get clients to pay you for your product
c. ability to be rigorous, methodical and with an attention for the borderline irrelevant minutiae

Lloyd Chambers isn't possessed with great photographic talent (IMHO) and he doesn't earn a living from selling his photographs but he does have a penchant for being anal enough to find any flaw with a product no matter how small or large it may be.

Now one can look at this result, acknowledge that for the situations and subjects he found the issue with its there and then determine that it doesn't apply to their photography, either style or subject and move on (i.e. which is what I've done with a whole bunch of stuff Lloyd has said over the years). However, belittling him or what he does because what he does for a living "measure up" in your value system is ignorant at best and jerky at worst.

I say this with all due respect of course :)

That's sounds like a next neighbor. You need to understand commerce and what really that is all about. You have no idea what these forums and review sites are all about. I'll leave it at that. Give you one example drama causes participation. Maybe now you will understand it better.
 

alajuela

Active member
Tim,

Or better yet my Alpa with a 150mm lens on a Gitzo series 1 traveler and an Acra head.... geez that head/tripod setup weighs 3.1 lbs. and allows me to use any shutter speed I want with no vibration - ever.:D

Victor
Apologize for being off topic ...............

Hello Victor

Please breakdown your setup that weights in at 3.1 lbs, with head and tripod included.

My IQ280 and Cambo WRC 400 and HR 40 weigh in at 2.1 kg w/o tripod and head.

Thanks

Phil
 
I've performed tests with my a7r and lenses. Vibration problems with my 90/2.8 Tamron macro, and 70-200/2.8 G Sony were indiscernible.
Glad to hear it. I did some quick testing (I'm not much of a tester, don't have the patience for it) with the Canon 24-70 II, 35 FE, 55 FE and Leica '90 cron and saw no discernible issues with any of the lenses except the Leica 90, where there was noticeable degradation at 1/160s.

Yes, the 1/80s and 1/100s images are a little softer than the 1/250s example. Would anyone notice without a direct comparison?

When one performs one's own tests, and the results differ so much from the reported results of Mr. Lloyd, I don't think it's unusual to question the competence or agenda of the person yelling "fire".
As I said before, you can identify an issue and decide its a non-issue for you and carry on. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that a difference that is irrelevant to you is irrelevant to all (for the record, Lloyd's differences in sharpness on the 55 FE due to shutter vibration are irrelevant to me).

I guess I don't get why people are getting all worked up over the folks who are getting worked up over shutter vibration. You don't have an issue with it, be happy and move on right? After all if Sony does manage to get bitch slapped into putting in a better delayed release pattern (i.e. one that closes the shutter then waits then opens shutter) in a firmware update you don't have anything to lose right?
 

ZoranC

New member
Forgive me for being a bit slow, but what is Lloys C saying in his tweet? A7R buyers are morons, those who don't believe in shutter vibration are morons, or what?
Way I see it he is either:

1. Calling Ferrell McCollough a moron.
2. Calling all of us that feel "shuttergate" is not as huge of an issue _for us_ as some are trying to convince rest of the world it is.
3. Both of the above.

Regardless of which one it is I don't care, I am not a professional tester, I am in photography for the art part of it and I am happy with the results from my A7R. If I would get on Sony's case about anything it would be what seems to me as (in)accuracy of metering, not "shutter shock".

Now if you will excuse me, my A7R is waiting on me for what it has been actually made for: Some photography.
 
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hcubell

Well-known member
Meh, like it or not, use of the word MORON will be a lightening rod.


I know photographers who are rigorous and relentless in testing any gear they may depend on, finding the flaws no matter how big or minute, then get on with it keeping that in mind.

- Marc
That's all Lloyd chambers and joe Holmes have done. Identify flaws in the way the A7R performs that are relevant to Their needs and look for workarounds. Please. Does anyone think that joe Holmes' needs are the same as vivek's? I know Joe and the guy has much better things to do than waste his time in a polemic about the flaws of a new camera. I am sure his interest in the A7 R and its flaws is motivated by his desire to see if the camera can work for him because it has extraordinary potential. I think Lloyd chambers is similarly motivated. I have not once seen any comments from either one if them suggesting in any way that someone who buys an A7R is a moron, or that a "real" professional would never buy an A7R. However, in this day and age with the internet, there is a vocal group of camera owners who are messianic about heir choice of a f....ing camera to the point where anyone who raises issues about the performance of the camera system elicits the equivalent of tribal warfare. It's not enough for them to say respectfully, I understand your concerns and I see your test results , but you know what, those concerns are not a practical issue for me given my needs. Instead, they need to vilify the messenger, and question his motives. This does strike me as moronic.
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Who said every situation requires 36 meg of retina slicing acuity?

If one took a Canon 5DMKIII and shot it at ISO 6,400 to get a great "of the moment" shot ... would that be using the camera's sensor to its greatest ability? Of course not.

I've heard the same argument regarding use of MFD cameras ... didn't stop me from shooting ISO 800 or 1600 hand-held to get a shot ... but I still had the choice to bolt it down on a tripod and shoot native ISO 100 if I wanted. The concepts are not mutually exclusive.

IMO, that is "keeping it real."

- Marc
Marc,
Your point is well taken. I guess for me as others have suggested is shot both cameras hand held, same lens and see with my own eyes if I can see the difference.
I don't question others success they have had hand holding the A7R, yet would they have achieved similar results with the A7?

The A7R reminds of when Nikon came out with the D800 and they published a technical document describing specifically what lens worked, and stressed proper shooting technique, tripod, MLU, etc. This is what prompted me on my original comment. Why would this same advice not apply to the A7R?
 
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