a7/A7r and the twilight of camera systems?

[gurtch]

Sold all my Canon gear to jump to the highest MP camera at the time, the A900. I have a treasure trove of Zeiss and Minolta lenses. When the D800E came out, I bought into that system for the higher Mp count (I make big prints), but I still have my A900 and lenses. If Sony comes out with a high Mp A mount camera, I am on board. SonyAlpha Rumors says with confidence, that TWO A mount cameras will be announced after the new year! I have an A7R and LAEA4 adapter, and my A mount lenses are seeing the light of day again
Dave in NJ

 

[Annna T]

Another view: in two years or so, I expect FF sensors to be in the 60MP range. Many legacy lenses will simply not be up to the task, and newly-designed lenses will be needed. At that point, using a system's native lenses will become much more attractive (assuming they are as good as or betters than the FE primes appear to be).

MMmmm... I think that photographers needing 60MP are really a niche. That is way too much pixels save for a few pros and only a few pro will be concerned, most don't need so many pixels either. 60MP put a lot of strain on digital dark rooms while rarely needed. There is a limit to what is useful and sensor/camera manufacturers knows it too. So there should be a limit to the pixels race too.

Too many pixels will get in the way of other improvements like AF and fps performance, or global electronic shutter (getting rid of the mechanical shutter).

 

[Ron Pfister]

I agree with you all the way, Anna. I've decided for myself that 36MP on FF is just about the practical limit for my needs, technique and lenses. But I'm not convinced at all that camera manufacturers will see it that way. They need to keep selling cameras, after all, and I expect the MP race to continue for a while still (albeit at a slower pace).

 

[turtle]

I agree that 60MP is massive overkill for most people at the present time. As stated earlier, lenses will be the weak link, even if your computer can eat the files. Mind you, there will still be amateurs who will pay $5K for the lenses needed to tackle such sensors (just as there are buyers for the Leica 50 Summicron APO).

IMO the next evolution needs to be in affordable lenses that can tackle the sensors we already have. Forget 36MP, there are still a lot of Nikon and Canon pro lenses that struggle with 22-24MP at the apertures the lenses are marketed on. Any 60 MP DSLR will IMO be two lens generations ahead of what is well supported.

Everyone was hoping that Leica M lenses would perform flawlessly on the A7R, but this is not the case, not even close. Had it been, 36 MP would have look VERY different on the A7R than the D800E. Letting a Leica 24 3.8 Elmar loose at full potential would have made this abundantly clear, but it is hobbled in the corners. It still seems that Leica has the wide angle lenses, but not the platform. Others have the platform but not the lenses.

The FE lenses and A7R may end up 'great' when more lenses are rolled out, but something tells me its not quite going to give us a 36 MP 'Leica system' performance. But as the OP says, we have staggering flexibility.

All said, however, I do still think the A7/R is going to be a game changer with no small part being due to what the OP said. This is a camera that an entrenched user of another system can buy into (like me - EOS and Leica M). Maybe not perfectly, but well. It seems clear now that in order to get great results, many people will need to fill in some weak areas with native lenses (like the very wide lenses). This means, IMO, that Sony need to produce a couple of spectacular primes in the 16-28mm range. Forget speed, go for eye-watering performance right into the corners. My leica wides are not going to cut it. Its good that I bought in not based on amazing resolution (tho that is nice), but based on portability and dynamic range.

For those who are not obsessive about resolution being perfect everywhere (which should be most photographers, if they have any creative ability at all), the Alphas are a game changer. 50 ZM planar, 24 TS-E, 75 Summarit, 35 Sonnar FE... all in one bag.

 

[iiiNelson]

I agree that 60MP is massive overkill for most people at the present time. As stated earlier, lenses will be the weak link, even if your computer can eat the files. Mind you, there will still be amateurs who will pay $5K for the lenses needed to tackle such sensors (just as there are buyers for the Leica 50 Summicron APO).

IMO the next evolution needs to be in affordable lenses that can tackle the sensors we already have. Forget 36MP, there are still a lot of Nikon and Canon pro lenses that struggle with 22-24MP at the apertures the lenses are marketed on. Any 60 MP DSLR will IMO be two lens generations ahead of what is well supported.

Everyone was hoping that Leica M lenses would perform flawlessly on the A7R, but this is not the case, not even close. Had it been, 36 MP would have look VERY different on the A7R than the D800E. Letting a Leica 24 3.8 Elmar loose at full potential would have made this abundantly clear, but it is hobbled in the corners. It still seems that Leica has the wide angle lenses, but not the platform. Others have the platform but not the lenses.

The FE lenses and A7R may end up 'great' when more lenses are rolled out, but something tells me its not quite going to give us a 36 MP 'Leica system' performance. But as the OP says, we have staggering flexibility.

All said, however, I do still think the A7/R is going to be a game changer with no small part being due to what the OP said. This is a camera that an entrenched user of another system can buy into (like me - EOS and Leica M). Maybe not perfectly, but well. It seems clear now that in order to get great results, many people will need to fill in some weak areas with native lenses (like the very wide lenses). This means, IMO, that Sony need to produce a couple of spectacular primes in the 16-28mm range. Forget speed, go for eye-watering performance right into the corners. My leica wides are not going to cut it. Its good that I bought in not based on amazing resolution (tho that is nice), but based on portability and dynamic range.

For those who are not obsessive about resolution being perfect everywhere (which should be most photographers, if they have any creative ability at all), the Alphas are a game changer. 50 ZM planar, 24 TS-E, 75 Summarit, 35 Sonnar FE... all in one bag.

I agree and the native manual focus Zeiss lenses might just be those "eye watering" lenses as you put it.

As for the M-mount lenses I intended to use them as a stop gap and what I have tends to work well in actual pictures. Some PP is required for the wide angle stuff but it all seems to be fixable for the most part.

Interesting to me that you mentioned the obsessive nature in which people are judging the A7/r - I AGREE. I don't think that any other camera has been this heavily scrutinized in recent memories. It's been known that many wide angle M-mount lenses didn't play well with mirror less bodies from the Panasonic G1 days. I think PP software has gotten better today and allow many of them to be used with custom lens profiles but for the most part it's a stop gap solution until native lenses are released.

I have mixed feelings of people writing off the cameras completely for the fault of the seemingly "perfect" lenses that we now know weren't as perfect as we thought but rather had baked in software corrections. It remains that if you plan to adapt to test YOUR kit and not the solely the opinion of others. I have lenses that people find unacceptable that work fine for me but not for others.

 

[Ron Pfister]

…Everyone was hoping that Leica M lenses would perform flawlessly on the A7R, but this is not the case, not even close. Had it been, 36 MP would have look VERY different on the A7R than the D800E. Letting a Leica 24 3.8 Elmar loose at full potential would have made this abundantly clear, but it is hobbled in the corners. It still seems that Leica has the wide angle lenses, but not the platform. Others have the platform but not the lenses…

I think the problem with most M-mount lens designs is that they're simply not suited for the digital age, at least with current sensor technology. The hoops Leica had to jump through to make their M-lenses work well with their digital bodies are going a bit too far, IMO. They should have done the same thing with the M-line as they did with the R-line: kill it, and start fresh (S-line).

 

[fotografz]

Here's my take on this whole "Twilight" notion:

Canon and Nikon have been entrenched forever. MR echos those sentiments with his personal bias comments. The big two have a user base that was once pretty unshakable. However, like everything else these days, customer loyalty isn't what it used to be.

Camera sales have tanked in the face of new tech cell phones that most folks now use for everyday snaps. Hardest hit have been the smaller pocket type cameras, and even the mirror-less cams which showed disappointing sales, at least in the USA, which surprised camera marketers. DSLRs are not immune to the new age of image making either.

Entrenched and complacent things always produce game changing challenges. Canon and Nikon have a huge user base to appease, where ground up companies don't ... so are freer to innovate.

Witness Epson who ignored Leica's excuses regarding a digital M and produced the RD-1.

Witness Leica who had the guts to abandon the R system knowing full well they couldn't digitally compete with Canon/Nikon 35mm DSLR juggernaut despite the howls of protest from the R faithful ... instead, they changed the game with the S system ground-up-design dual shutter camera ... and optics that'll hold true through many years of sensor changes and meg increases.

Now there is this relentless innovation from Sony done at an oblique angle to those from Canon/Nikon (who are walking a tightrope between the past and the future) ... with many warning shots sent over the bow of Canon and Nikon in the past few years. They've abandoned OVF cameras and now are on the cusp of making more converts (when I hear Guy's reaction to the A7R's EVF, it signals that we are a generation or two away from putting OVF on the endangered species list). Luddites will howl, but it is inevitable.

Early adopters of new things are always impatient ... nothing is perfect right from the get-go ... the A7/A7R is seen as revolutionary but incomplete. Yet it signals a sunrise in image making that a company like Zeiss has to be celebrating. They WILL kick Leica's buttocks in the coming years because they are not bound by appeasing a Leica M user base ... they are free to apply their innovation to new tech and user demands. We'll get our native mount lenses in due time, just like the S system eventually did.

By then we'll be at 50+ meg A8/A8R and have the lenses that can deliver ... don't want or need 50 meg?... there will be the little brother for you ... like the A7 is now. Sony is smart that way. Bet the A7R will be the big seller for now, but the A7 will come on strong later as all us gear sluts get a second body ... and the general shooting population discovers this new camera ... which, mark my words, WILL be discounted by early to mid 2014.

- Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

And just to be very clear on Marcs comments I HATED I MEAN HATED the EVF's until this new AR7 and A7. I honestly in my head thinking Im looking through a OVF. It has not even registered i am not. Now thats damn good.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Bet the A7R will be the big seller for now, but the A7 will come on strong later as all us gear sluts get a second body ...

Caught red handed with my hands in the cookie jar. Decision over

 

[Paul_Kerfoot]

Yes a lot of people are making the switch now, but not Rock Kenwell.
His flimsy test between the A7, Canon 5DIII and Leica M is strangly:

The Sony is a toy from one of the world's leaders in video and audio gear. It's fun to put different lenses on it, but it can't compete with real cameras from Nikon and Canon.

Not really surprising, he was very dismissive of the Ricoh GR when he tested it. If the truth be known, Sony is causing the other camera manufacturers to loose a lot of sleep.

Paul

 

[jlm]

interesting...forever the mantra has been treasure and hoard your leica m lenses, not so much the cameras. major appeal of the A7/r is the ability to make use of those lenses on a better body than the M240. Zeiss has quite an opening here

 

[Ron Pfister]

…Zeiss has quite an opening here

Hmm - perhaps this opening was created intentionally? I wouldn't be surprised...

 

[sisoje]

If Sony is smart, they will learn from all the "Sony A7 fanboys" and get it even better with a8 or a9: fix the "wide angle M" issue, fix the noisy shutter and for heaven sake hire a proper camera designer. Cause this a7 is one ugly box...

 

[Ron Pfister]

If Sony is smart, they will learn from all the "Sony A7 fanboys" and get it even better with a8 or a9: fix the "wide angle M" issue...

I think they have no interest whatsoever in doing this (see my previous post). They are building a new system from the ground up, and it makes no sense at all for them to cater to 3rd party legacy glass...