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a7/A7r and the twilight of camera systems?

mdg137

Member
So, I was thinking this morning-- and just posted Dpr

In the film days, we would buy into a system, based on both camera bodies and lenses. You had to weigh the ergonomics, features, and production cycle (sometimes 8 years) of the body AND the lens lineup-- which lenses fit your style best. (assuming we are ignoring factors like flash capability).
This could mean rangefinder, SLR, or even medium format versions of both.

Then, with the advent of DSLRs and the tremendous acceleration of camera body production cycles/obsolescence, the lens system became the prime consideration-- the technological leapfrogging of sensor and body combinations, and rapid depreciation of camera body value made the lenses the most stable, logical prime factor in choosing a system (leaving niche products out of the equation).

Im wondering now, with mirrorless leaving infancy and heading into childhood, and especially with full frame mirrorless, if we arent entering into a totally new age of equipment. Unless you have a very specific need, like high speed AF/FPS, there is no longer to choose a system at all.

I have the A7r, and have been using:

Canon EF lenses with full functionality
Olympus OM lenses
Leica and Voigtlander M mount lenses
Sony E mount lenses
Canon RF lenses
Canon FD lenses
Nikkor AiS lenses

Essentially, the A7/A7r (or any mirrorless full frame with EVF) allows one to cherry pick lenses from across almost every system, and I assume in the future, mate those lenses to any body that will accept the correct adapter. (with of course some limitations).

Granted, not EVERY lens functions to its full potential, but it seems as if there is suddenly a vast array of possibilities that were not there-- and freedom from systems.

Thoughts?
 

Michiel Schierbeek

Well-known member
First FF model but for the rest people have been using old lenses on mirrorless cameras since the G1 and even before on Canon and olympus dslr's.

This thing has been going on for a while.
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Another view: in two years or so, I expect FF sensors to be in the 60MP range. Many legacy lenses will simply not be up to the task, and newly-designed lenses will be needed. At that point, using a system's native lenses will become much more attractive (assuming they are as good as or betters than the FE primes appear to be).
 

mdg137

Member
First FF model but for the rest people have been using old lenses on mirrorless cameras since the G1 and even before on Canon and olympus dslr's.

This thing has been going on for a while.
Agreed, but I think "full frame" has kicked the door completely open. Prior to this, I always had a full frame system and used mirrorless as a secondary-- I still havent sold my DSLR, and in fact have a slush fund stashed for the mythical canon high MP model...

But I had never considered moving entirely to mirrorless until now.
 

Michiel Schierbeek

Well-known member
Yes a lot of people are making the switch now, but not Rock Kenwell.
His flimsy test between the A7, Canon 5DIII and Leica M is strangly:

The Sony is a toy from one of the world's leaders in video and audio gear. It's fun to put different lenses on it, but it can't compete with real cameras from Nikon and Canon.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Granted, not EVERY lens functions to its full potential, but it seems as if there is suddenly a vast array of possibilities that were not there-- and freedom from systems.

Thoughts?
Actually they do and much better on the A7R (with the exception of Leica M, of course that has become boutique ware and is now in a class of its own).

However, the Sony stuff is hardly a system. For most of the new (Sony) users, it is a transitory curiosity. It makes a lot of news because it is a disruptive entry.

If it is sustainable or not depends on whether Sony come up with useful accessories and support or not.

They have WiFi and NFC in the A7/7R but have no wireless flash possibilities, for example. This, to me, is a clear indication of Sony's priorities.

Rock Kenwell speaks the truth in his own twisted way. Starts a page with "make a donation". Gotta love this guy! Cunning stunt! :p
 

mjm6

Member
Yes a lot of people are making the switch now, but not Rock Kenwell.
His flimsy test between the A7, Canon 5DIII and Leica M is strangly:

The Sony is a toy from one of the world's leaders in video and audio gear. It's fun to put different lenses on it, but it can't compete with real cameras from Nikon and Canon.
Well, at least he didn't include Leica in the category of 'Real' cameras! Hahaha....

Remarkably, they guy must make enough from his site to continue carrying the standard. What an oaf.

If he'd used the same lens on the a7r as the Canon, I suspect he'd see a drastically different result. As it is, he did so many things wrong that it's hard to even begin.

But as we all know, even bad publicity is good publicity.


---Michael
 

jonoslack

Active member
If it is sustainable or not depends on whether Sony come up with useful accessories and support or not.p
I think the problem with Sony is that, despite fantastic innovation and new cameras they don't understand about continuity. Apparently NEX is dead :eek:, A mount looks really unlikely to carry on for long. Whilst Canikon refuse to change Sony just can't stop!
 

bcm

Member
Yes a lot of people are making the switch now, but not Rock Kenwell.
His flimsy test between the A7, Canon 5DIII and Leica M is strangly:

The Sony is a toy from one of the world's leaders in video and audio gear. It's fun to put different lenses on it, but it can't compete with real cameras from Nikon and Canon.
It was a very silly test. He tested a 5d with a native, a M240 with a native and then the a7 with a non-native when a 55mm native is available. Bizarre.
 

GrahamB

New member
I think the problem with Sony is that, despite fantastic innovation and new cameras they don't understand about continuity. Apparently NEX is dead :eek:, A mount looks really unlikely to carry on for long. Whilst Canikon refuse to change Sony just can't stop!
All assumptions directly contradicted by Sony.

NEX the name is dead, but E mount aps-c cameras replacements are soon to be introduced. Alpha mount is due for new models early 2014.

Here's a recent interview with Sony's camera chief. Google Translate

Graham
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think the problem with Sony is that, despite fantastic innovation and new cameras they don't understand about continuity. Apparently NEX is dead :eek:, A mount looks really unlikely to carry on for long. Whilst Canikon refuse to change Sony just can't stop!
Yes, they just launched a new Zeiss 50/1.4 with SSW AF for the soon to be dead A system ... :rolleyes:

The continuity has been fine ... A900/850, roll-out of A mount lenses, A99, spanning about 4 or 5 years, and now even the A7/A7R takes the A mounts.

The successor to the A99 is most likely going to sport the new sensor tech. Strongly rumored as a 54 meg with a whole new way of exposing each pixel.

My A99 isn't going anywhere because it has in-body stabilization and dual card slots, both of which are essential to many wedding and event shooters.

I seriously doubt IBS will be in any A7 successor ... otherwise why would they be introducing stabilized FE lenses?

I do think their next DSLR will be smaller than the A99.

- Marc
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Funny, the granddaddies of cameras, view cameras, you would buy a lens from any manufacturer and simply mount it in a lens board. The more things change...
 

jonoslack

Active member
Yes, they just launched a new Zeiss 50/1.4 with SSW AF for the soon to be dead A system ... :rolleyes:

The continuity has been fine ... A900/850, roll-out of A mount lenses, A99, spanning about 4 or 5 years, and now even the A7/A7R takes the A mounts.

The successor to the A99 is most likely going to sport the new sensor tech. Strongly rumored as a 54 meg with a whole new way of exposing each pixel.
Graham, Marc
I hope you're right, but E mount lens roll out has been pretty slow and patchy,one or two lovely lenses, but lots of Ho-hum lenses. Maybe that's going to change-for me the 24-70 FE zoom is going to decide me, and if you're right Marc with respect to the A99 replacement then that's great.

Maybe it's me that's inconsistent. My A900 was an all time favorite and I also loved the A77. I was lured away by some excellent Zuiko lenses.

Anyway, there is nothing I'd like better than seeing them succeed with this. It still doesn't help my 7/7r decision!
 

mjm6

Member
The successor to the A99 is most likely going to sport the new sensor tech. Strongly rumored as a 54 meg with a whole new way of exposing each pixel.


- Marc
Marc, I thought I read that it will be a 36MP camera, sometime this next year... I think the 54MP will be in 2015-6, so probably won't show up in the next pro camera.

This one says 24 and 36 MP sensors for cameras in 2014 and 2015.
(SR5) Sony sensor revolution: First “non-Bayer” sensors coming in 2015. | sonyalpharumors

Regardless, it appears Sony has no intention of getting rid of the A line of cameras, but I expect that the mirrorless cameras are going to take over the market, and DSLR sales are going to continue to erode. Too many people happily shooting with cell phones for it to not be on a downward slide.


---Michael
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Yes a lot of people are making the switch now, but not Rock Kenwell.
His flimsy test between the A7, Canon 5DIII and Leica M is strangly:

The Sony is a toy from one of the world's leaders in video and audio gear. It's fun to put different lenses on it, but it can't compete with real cameras from Nikon and Canon.
He grows when you quote him.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Graham, Marc
I hope you're right, but E mount lens roll out has been pretty slow and patchy,one or two lovely lenses, but lots of Ho-hum lenses. Maybe that's going to change-for me the 24-70 FE zoom is going to decide me, and if you're right Marc with respect to the A99 replacement then that's great.

Maybe it's me that's inconsistent. My A900 was an all time favorite and I also loved the A77. I was lured away by some excellent Zuiko lenses.

Anyway, there is nothing I'd like better than seeing them succeed with this. It still doesn't help my 7/7r decision!
Well, you said it in another conversation we had Jono ... for someone like me with a slew of A mount lenses the decision is easier ... and that is the continuity aspect I am alluding to.

The A900 is a favorite with me also, and still is ... I have no idea why, but this camera is more akin to that camera than the A99 when it comes to color response ... except it provides really high ISO abilities missing in the A900. Maybe the new processor and how they tuned it in the A7/A7Rs?

You shoot a LOT more color M stuff than I do, so the M240 makes more sense than it did for me ... my Mono dominates any rangefinder work I do so a decent little body to do a few color travel shots or occasional portrait with M lenses is all I really need.

I'm a bit more patient regarding native FE lenses (like I was with the S2, where lack of lenses was a major criticism, but look at them now!).

The 55/1.8 sounds decent enough ... but I agree, how the stabilized 24-70/4 performs optically, and how good the AF is, will be a big determiner on adding native FE lenses. A stabilized 24-70 would be a welcome addition for wedding and event shooting as well as general travel and walk-abouts. The f/4 max aperture is less of a concern with this camera than an OVF camera because the EVF provides good subject viewing even in really low light ... and f/4 is okay because the A7R high ISO performance is so good. How close the minimum focusing distance is will be of interest (so you can get nice OOF areas @ 70mm when desired).

I think if this camera garners good sales, Zeiss will follow up on their planned roll out of dedicated FE lenses ... sooner than later. I'm fairly sure they are privy to Sony's product development plan regarding future FE mount Alpha cameras ... which, if the past has been any indication, will come tumbling out of Sony's Cornucopia at a mind numbing rate ... I mean, come on, how many iterations of APSC Alphas and NEXs can fit on the head of a pin :ROTFL:

A happy holiday season to you and your family Jono!

- Marc
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, I thought I read that it will be a 36MP camera, sometime this next year... I think the 54MP will be in 2015-6, so probably won't show up in the next pro camera.

This one says 24 and 36 MP sensors for cameras in 2014 and 2015.
(SR5) Sony sensor revolution: First “non-Bayer” sensors coming in 2015. | sonyalpharumors

Regardless, it appears Sony has no intention of getting rid of the A line of cameras, but I expect that the mirrorless cameras are going to take over the market, and DSLR sales are going to continue to erode. Too many people happily shooting with cell phones for it to not be on a downward slide.


---Michael
Yeah Michael, I think you are right. If the new big meg non-Bayer sensor sees the light of day in 2014 ... it may be in a Hasselblad camera. That is the strong rumor from decent sources on the Hasselblad rumor sites. That would help amortize the R&D costs, and reduce the cost to manufacture that is rumored to be too high right now for inclusion in an Alpha A mount camera.

I'm putting away my shekels in anticipation of the next Alpha flagship: 36 meg, next gen BOINZ processor; high ISO; better EVF; keep the dual card slots; even better IBIS-II (if they do not include IBIS, I will not buy the camera); KEEP that wonderful articulated LCD (love that you can turn it facing inward to protect the surface), bit smaller than the A99, (but not too small please).

The question I have is ... will they continue with the translucent mirror or go mirror-less? I hope they keep it because the A7R is faster AF with the LAEA4 Translucent Mirror adapter than without it. AF speed HAS to be stellar in any flagship FF Alpha. That, or some new tech for AF that trumps the current dual AF SLT system in the A99 (2 Phase contrast sensors, including one above the mirror, and one at focal plane).

What would be really cool is if in the spirit of mutual cooperation Hasselblad let Sony incorporate True Focus Absolute Position Lock in an Alpha flagship camera ... OMG!... I'd be on that like a beggar on a dollar. It is the best off-center composition AF solution I have ever used from anyone, ever!

Sony, who would have thunk it? The future ain't what it used to be ...

Back to their old theme line:

SONY, The One And Only!

:D

- Marc
 

mjm6

Member
Back to their old theme line:

SONY, The One And Only!

:D

- Marc
Well, I never would have thought that in the past, but look at where we are today...

The a900 made me take notice (and sell all of my Canon gear after 25+ years as a mostly happy Canon person). This camera is the obvious partner to the a900 for me, and it sounds like there are a lot of people considering switching camps with it's introduction.


---Michael
 
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