The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Fun With Sony Cameras

Status
Not open for further replies.

Knorp

Well-known member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

It was the DxO graph Jørgen showed us in the Nikon forum (... the Fuji is still Queen :D), that rekindled my interest in low ISOs.
Last Sunday I shot everything at ISO 50.
And I think you're right: there is some real smoothness in the files particular in OOF and shadow parts.

Kind regards.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Here is what I'm seeing in this comparison....any ideas?? (For compulsive pixel peepers only :). ALL SETTINGS ON CAMERA AND IN C1 THE SAME EXCEPT FOR ISO.
Eleanor, Interesting post and even though I'm not a compulsive pixel peeper I see what you are seeing and saying. However if I understand all the technical talk about the "fake" iso's from Jim Kasson and others is what they are saying that the raw signal strength at iso 50 is nothing more then iso 100 with +1EV exposure compensation. Somehow raw converters are programmed to then automatically apply -1EV in the conversion "behind the scenes" so the scene looks the correct brightness. So it would be interesting to see that as a third test to shoot at iso 100 and + 1EV and then manually apply - 1EV in the raw converter.
In the example you posted you gave the iso 50 shot twice the amount of light vs. the iso 100 shot, so no surprise smoother gradations can be pulled from the shadows. This will work OK as long as you don't run out of highlight headroom.
 

dandrewk

New member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Grandson across the table from me at a burger joint. EXIF in border.


Joe
Great shot, as always, Joe. This is something you can show his fiancee (when the time comes), and he won't be embarrassed. :)

Is it just me, or does this shot SCREAM Zeiss?
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Eleanor, Interesting post and even though I'm not a compulsive pixel peeper I see what you are seeing and saying. However if I understand all the technical talk about the "fake" iso's from Jim Kasson and others is what they are saying that the raw signal strength at iso 50 is nothing more then iso 100 with +1EV exposure compensation. Somehow raw converters are programmed to then automatically apply -1EV in the conversion "behind the scenes" so the scene looks the correct brightness. So it would be interesting to see that as a third test to shoot at iso 100 and + 1EV and then manually apply - 1EV in the raw converter.
In the example you posted you gave the iso 50 shot twice the amount of light vs. the iso 100 shot, so no surprise smoother gradations can be pulled from the shadows. This will work OK as long as you don't run out of highlight headroom.
Yup, it's just a lesson in the math of ETTR. For the best explanation of this, see here...

https://luminous-landscape.com/expose-right/
 

Chris C

Member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Hi Chris...... difference between iso 50, 64, 80 and 100 on the A7RII is, for the most part, negligible............

iso 50 for instance will give me smoother areas in say a blue sky or in very deep shadows (on extremely close inspection....pixel peeping) than more closely resemble my Phase One files with the same megapixel count. But to repeat, the differences between iso 50 and 100 on the Sony are negligible. .....
Eleanor - My belated, but grateful thanks for your reply. I have now caught up with the thread so needed to rewrite this reply. Thank you, and others who have contributed to the low ISO discussion.

........... Chris
 

Barry Haines

Active member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

This has been a good conversation about the issues with iso 50 vs 100. Here is what I'm seeing in this comparison....any ideas?? (For compulsive pixel peepers only :). ALL SETTINGS ON CAMERA AND IN C1 THE SAME EXCEPT FOR ISO. (see lower left for details....ie: iso, Zeiss 35mm, f8, exposure, etc, etc). in Ci with same settings I took 2 files and in two images enlarged to 300 percent. One file at 100 percent. Then opened shadows wide open and tried to blow out highlights. I was interested in shadows really, say in cases where I want expand certain blackish shadows big time in certain images. What I'm seeing is superior micro contrast in the iso 50 file unless my vision is skewed!!. I often shoot the river by my house in early evening with long exposures and shadows in rocks are black. In these cases I want to have the ability to open these shadows to see at least some decent detail...thus one reason for iso 50. (I will say iso 50 in my A7R was much inferior to iso 100 in that camera but I'm not seeing this in my A7RII)..eleanor

Thanks Eleanor, I’m not really a pixel peeper and I’m only reporting what I have read elsewhere – Yes, I would agree with you that your iso50 300% image shows finer resolving detail in the mid-tones and also the shadows than your iso100 300% image but then that’s what I would have expected anyway from either the A7R or the A7RII, with the reduced noise from 1 stop lower iso....The problem as I see it lies still at what’s going on at the other end with blown highlights...If you are having to blow out the highlights deliberately in post processing in C1 (on the iso50 image) then it’s quite feasible that you probably could have exposed the highlights further still to the right at the taking stage on the cameras histogram and still got away with it....The only real way to test this as far as I can see is exactly as Jim Kasson explained here http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11622 or how DPReview did it under a controlled lighting set-up and with a Stouffer step wedge ( http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Sony-alpha-a7r/14 )...

Quote “Our Dynamic Range measurement system involves shooting a calibrated Stouffer Step Wedge (13 stops total range) which is backlit using a daylight balanced lamp (98 CRI). A single shot of this produces a gray scale wedge from the camera's clipped white point down to black (example below). Each step of the scale is equivalent to 1/3 EV (a third of a stop), we select one step as 'middle gray' (defined as 50% luminance) and measure outwards to define the dynamic range. Hence there are 'two sides' to our results, the amount of shadow range (below middle gray) and the amount of highlight range (above middle gray)”

The gentle curve of the shoulder shows subtle finer highlight detail being retained at iso100 whilst the iso50 comes to an abrupt halt and blows out 1 stop faster.
Please see bottom graph iso50/iso100 comparison http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Sony-alpha-a7r/14

According to DXOMARK...Both the A7R and A7RII cameras have fake iso’s below iso100
DXOMARK see A7R iso50 and iso100 sensitivity are both the same... http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Sony/A7R---Measurements#tabs-2
DXOMARK see A7RII iso50 and iso100 sensitivity are both the same... http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Sony/A7R-II---Measurements

As said earlier I’m only reporting and linking together what others have said before me...I still have a couple of Stouffer step wedges lying around somewhere from the good old film days :) I should really test this out for myself.

When I shot with my 35mm Film Leica M’s in the 80’s I was happy with Tri-X and then later with TMax3200 developed in a dilute high acutance developer to exaggerate the grain to it’s utmost point just before Mackie lines began to kick in but when I was shooting Large Format sheet film (14x11, 10x8 and 5x4) I did the very opposite, I tried everything possible to make that grain disappear...Pyrogallol and Pyrocatechol film staining developers contact printed on Silver Chloride (Kodak AZO paper from Michael A. Smith) developed in Amidol. Nowadays I don’t mind a little noise in my digital images as you may have already gathered ;)...Cheers Barry




 

eleanorbrown

New member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Not to get redundant here, but just something fun....not great images but just shows what the A7Rii can pick up resolution wise on closer inspection. Zeiss 100mm F2 Nikon mount with converter. Hand held, manual focus with EVF in windy drizzly weather and shooting quickly from nearly Mount Evans road pull off at about 14,000 feet. Lone climber at 100 percent (top image) on Colorado "fourteener" Mount Bierstadt summit. Gives a sense of scale. Actually climber is also visible on second image of the entire area. Eleanor

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]
 

f/otographer

New member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Hello all. Been a while since I posted here. I was busy with a lot of life things but still shooting, just not posting much to a lot of different forums. This forum however has such a good Sony presence I really don't know why I don't post here more often. Hopefully that will change.

I recently had a great opportunity fall into my lap. My nephew lives in China and runs an English language school over there. He organized a trip to America for some of his students and their families and many of them decided to come along. They came over in two groups, the first group going to San Fran for a week and then spending a few days in L.A before flying back to China. The second group then flew into L.A. and did the reverse of the trip, ending up in San Fran for a week before going home. My nephew Jake was with them for the entire trip and I was fortunate enough to live close to San Fran so I was able to spend some time with him on both legs of the trip when he was in the city by the bay.

I of course brought my camera and in a very informal way I documented the first group of families and had a lot of fun doing it. Jake was very interested in the images I was getting so when I had to go home from the first leg (to work, blah) I left my back-up camera, a NEX 7/Speedbooster/Yashica ML 50/1.9 combo, for him to use and play around with. Turns out he has a really good eye for photography and he captured some very artistic images.

We then discussed something more formal for the second group coming into San Fran. He had his marketing girl advertise with the families that for a fee they could hire me as a documentary photographer to follow them around for a day on their tour to capture some images from them. We set a max of 5 families so I wouldn't be too swamped and I was delighted that all 5 spots filled up.

I went back to San Fran the next week and had an absolute blast meeting and photographing the Chinese families. Each one consisted of a mother and daughter except for one daughter that was by herself. I shot them the evening I got there, all the next day, and then early on the next morning before going home. My trusty A7 had been giving me a few misfiring issues (hmmmm, not so trusty I guess) so I rented an a7 II to ensure nothing would go wonky with the shoot. I mounted up a Canon FDn 50/1.4 to the a7 II and would use this as my main lens for the day. My a7 would have a Yashica ML 35/2.8 mounted up for group or landscape shots. But in all honesty I ended up using the 50 for about 90% of the shots. That focal length is simply my favorite and it is what I am used to shooting anyway.

So without further ado here are some examples from the shoot. All of these photos are from the a7 II with FDn 50/1.4 and are a mixture of shots showing some kids, one of the moms and one of the teachers just going about the daily routines of the trip. Hope you enjoy.

















 
Last edited:

eleanorbrown

New member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Lots of good and very interesting information here Barry...many many thanks! I'm still learning with this new Sony so all views and information are welcome. I would never blow highlights on purpose or expose to blow out highlights as those can never be recovered. I think the lower iso's in the future will be on an image by image basis and will know more when I use the camera more! The test shots I posted I raised those shadows as much as C1 would allow to a ridiculous level just to see what was "in those shadows"....thus the reason for the test shots to look crazy overexposed. You brought back memories of my darkroom days too....While I love the digital world of photography I do miss the quiet and darkness in my darkroom!:)...thanks again, eleanor

Thanks Eleanor, I’m not really a pixel peeper and I’m only reporting what I have read elsewhere – Yes, I would agree with you that your iso50 300% image shows finer resolving detail in the mid-tones and also the shadows than your iso100 300% image but then that’s what I would have expected anyway from either the A7R or the A7RII, with the reduced noise from 1 stop lower iso....The problem as I see it lies still at what’s going on at the other end with blown highlights...If you are having to blow out the highlights deliberately in post processing in C1 (on the iso50 image) then it’s quite feasible that you probably could have exposed the highlights further still to the right at the taking stage on the cameras histogram and still got away with it....The only real way to test this as far as I can see is exactly as Jim Kasson explained here http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11622 or how DPReview did it under a controlled lighting set-up and with a Stouffer step wedge ( http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Sony-alpha-a7r/14 )...

Quote “Our Dynamic Range measurement system involves shooting a calibrated Stouffer Step Wedge (13 stops total range) which is backlit using a daylight balanced lamp (98 CRI). A single shot of this produces a gray scale wedge from the camera's clipped white point down to black (example below). Each step of the scale is equivalent to 1/3 EV (a third of a stop), we select one step as 'middle gray' (defined as 50% luminance) and measure outwards to define the dynamic range. Hence there are 'two sides' to our results, the amount of shadow range (below middle gray) and the amount of highlight range (above middle gray)”

The gentle curve of the shoulder shows subtle finer highlight detail being retained at iso100 whilst the iso50 comes to an abrupt halt and blows out 1 stop faster.
Please see bottom graph iso50/iso100 comparison http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Sony-alpha-a7r/14

According to DXOMARK...Both the A7R and A7RII cameras have fake iso’s below iso100
DXOMARK see A7R iso50 and iso100 sensitivity are both the same... http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Sony/A7R---Measurements#tabs-2
DXOMARK see A7RII iso50 and iso100 sensitivity are both the same... http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Sony/A7R-II---Measurements

As said earlier I’m only reporting and linking together what others have said before me...I still have a couple of Stouffer step wedges lying around somewhere from the good old film days :) I should really test this out for myself.

When I shot with my 35mm Film Leica M’s in the 80’s I was happy with Tri-X and then later with TMax3200 developed in a dilute high acutance developer to exaggerate the grain to it’s utmost point just before Mackie lines began to kick in but when I was shooting Large Format sheet film (14x11, 10x8 and 5x4) I did the very opposite, I tried everything possible to make that grain disappear...Pyrogallol and Pyrocatechol film staining developers contact printed on Silver Chloride (Kodak AZO paper from Michael A. Smith) developed in Amidol. Nowadays I don’t mind a little noise in my digital images as you may have already gathered ;)...Cheers Barry




 

Lucille

New member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Old Jailhouse in New Mexico.


Sony A7R MII, Zeiss 16-35mm@19mm f/4, ISO100, 1/5000sec.
 

Barry Haines

Active member
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

^^^Lovely to have you back here posting again David (f/otographer), with your own unique style of photography^^^

^^^Eleanor, yes, I realized you were just pulling the files about to demonstrate your point about the low noise shadow recovery :thumbup: It’s really quite amazing what can be achieved nowadays :)
Likewise I still miss making prints in the darkroom, I get zero gratification from pressing a few buttons on my Epson printer, although I must admit I was fed up to the back teeth with processing endless amounts of film :( ^^^

Taken this afternoon...This is Doyden Castle at Port Quin (Standard processing + BLENCOMO Pseudo IR variations)
A lovely little quirky rentable one bedroom Gothic folly perched high up on the cliffs looking out to sea




 
Re: Fun with the Sony A7 Series Cameras( all of them)

Really interesting images coming out of those Sony Cameras.

Port of Miami from South Pointe Park. A7R + 55mm Nikkor-S

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top