comparing the A7 to the M9 ...

[Godfrey]

Okay, I did a little experiment this morning. I carried both the M9 and the A7 along with just the M-Rokkor 40mm f/2 lens. To further constrain the results, I set the lens to about f/4.7 and the ISO on both cameras to 320.

In use, there are some situations where the A7 is much easier to focus and other situations where the M9 is much easier to focus. But by and large most situations prove equally easy to focus with either, and there are workarounds in technique that you can use to get around when either are more difficult to focus. The end result is that you can focus either camera with acceptable accuracy with a little practice and understanding.

In all cases, it's much easier to see the framing accurately with the Sony. You always see precisely what the lens sees. The Leica allows you to see a bit around the outside of the actual frame by varying amounts depending upon the particular focal length, the distance you're focusing at, and your eyesight (because of how you see through the viewfinder). As a consequence, with the Leica I normally want to shoot a little "loose" to be sure I've got everything I want in the photo. This is the same if I were comparing an SLR and a RF camera of any type.

The Leica M9 is a bit bulkier, a bit heavier than the Sony. The differences are not enormous. Likewise, the ergonomics of the two cameras differ a lot, but which fits your hands and use better is a matter of personal opinion. As is the ability to make settings with the camera not to your eye ... they both do, but how you do it and how you see what you're doing is different, and which you like more will also differ.

The Sony A7 (and particularly the A7r) gets a bad rap for shutter noise. Well, the sound of the shutters is quite different:

M9:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/M9.mp3

A7 with EFCS enabled (the normal mode):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/A7-ECFS.mp3

A7 with only mechanical (same as A7r):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/A7-mechanical.mp3

The recordings were made at about 7 inches from the cameras, above and to the right of them. The M9's softer sound is followed by the longer, slow shutter recock. The A7 EFCS mode is sharp but quick, the A7 mechanical mode is clattery. None of them is particularly quiet, really, and from 8 feet way in an open field you'd hardly notice any of them. For a quiet concert hall ... Give me a quiet leaf shutter camera, please.

In the end, the question becomes "Which camera makes a better photo?" I've seen that some people think the M9 creates a sharper photo ... which seems kind of odd since the A7 has more pixel resolution. If you're using the same lens on either, and the lens is a good match to either sensor, the 30% more pixel resolution should count for more than the difference that the A7's light AA filter can reduce resolution by (the A7r's lack of AA filter and double the M9 resolution should account for even more than that), and perceptual sharpness is after that more of an image processing/local contrast issue.

So here's the challenge: Look at these ten photo pairs and tell me for each one of them which is the M9 and which is the A7 exposure.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-01.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-02.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-03.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-04.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-05.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-06.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-07.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-08.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-09.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25268645/A7-M9-side_by_side/side_by_side-10.jpg

(I've got the legend here, but I'll let you do guess first.

As to what I like using ... Well, I like using them both. But I think I like using the A7 more: I was always most comfortable using SLRs because I could see the framing more clearly and see with my eye what was or wasn't in focus by judging its sharpness.

 

[OlderThenDirt]

The M9 has a more pleasing sound to me.
As far as the photo test images go, if one has to look (strain) that hard to tell the difference then it probably doesn't matter. Either will make great images if the part behind the camera is seeing well.
Then there is how one likes each camera and the way he/she likes the feel and the method of operation.
Nice test and post.
Thanks,
Robert

 

[Godfrey]

The M9 has a more pleasing sound to me.
As far as the photo test images go, if one has to look (strain) that hard to tell the difference then it probably doesn't matter. Either will make great images if the part behind the camera is seeing well.
Then there is how one likes each camera and the way he/she likes the feel and the method of operation.
Nice test and post.

Thanks! I agree with you, although I'm a bit more ambivalent on the sound issue. The M9 shutter cocking often sounds like it's straining to me, where the A7 doesn't.

Fun stuff. I just decided that I needed to carry them both side by side before I make a decision about whether to keep or sell the M9. I know now that despite how much I like the M9, the A7 will get the majority of my use as I prefer its viewfinder.

G

 

[Thomas Fallon]

In most of the pairs, the top image seems superior to me. Image 8 is the best example of that. I hope you are going to tell me that the top images are the camera I own. Otherwise, I will be saying the two famous words: "Oh, ****."

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

i prefer the Sony A7, but the CCD vs CMOS rendition are probably very personal and subjective. I have owned both and love the A7 shutter sound. It's very solid and satisfying compared to the M9.

 

[JohnW]

I'll guess that the top image in all samples is from the M9.

I shoot BW almost exclusively, so I'm not good at judging from color examples. But the M9's CCD and lack of AA give the best BW output of any digital camera I've owned. The GR shares those two features and is in the same class. Particularly telling is their handling of upper gray zones. I just got an A7 and am hoping it will get close to the standard set by those two cameras.

I also like the A7 shutter very much: not particularly quiet, but smooth and certain.

John

 

[Godfrey]

Anyone else care to offer an opinion on the photos? I'll post a key later today.

Thanks!

Godfrey

 

[iiiNelson]

Anyone else care to offer an opinion on the photos? I'll post a key later today.

Thanks!

Godfrey

I would take a stab except I tested how both the A7 and A7r did with my M mount collection. All of the lenses I own work decent enough with the A7 except the 35 Cron ASPH (sadly) and most work well enough with the A7r (except the aforementioned and the 24 Elmar very sadly.) Some I prefer on the A7 and A7r to the M9/M9P (ZM50/2, 35/1.2 Nokton II, and 90 Summicron Pre-AA.)

That's a 100% subjective decision as to whether SOME M mount lenses work better on the Sony camera but in any case I bought a set of Contax Zeiss Primes for consistent look with the other Zeiss lenses. All of the purchases were on the longer end though (85, 100, 135, 180.) Oh and as for which is better... I love both but it's hard for me to justify keeping the M9 outside the fact I love rangefinders too. That being said if in fact Sony does announce the rumored MF EVIL camera well the M9 and most of the M lenses are gone.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Still a rumor but looks like a big boy RX coming to town

Sony Compact Medium Format Camera Coming « NEW CAMERA

 

[iiiNelson]

Still a rumor but looks like a big boy RX coming to town

Sony Compact Medium Format Camera Coming « NEW CAMERA

God I hope that's not true or that they will at least release and interchangeable lens version later.

 

[Godfrey]

A bit of topic drift I see ...

If Sony comes out with something like the Hasselblad SWC, that is, a fixed-lens, niche camera that is extraordinary and compelling on some front that I find motivating, I'll be interested. If they just come out with another "Texas Leica" analogue (that is, like a big version of an RX1 with a relatively normal lens), well, there are limits to how much better than what I have already I need/want, and at what price.

In 2002, I traded off my entire Leica M kit to buy a Hasselblad 903SWC. For several months, I used it as my only camera. It was such a memorable experience that even after I sold it to expand my kit in other directions, I missed it a lot, to the point of buying another one last year. Like the Leica M Monochrom, it's the singular, specialist nature of such a camera that attracts me. The constraints of using it provoke me to explore seeing in different ways.

At the moment, I live in a surfeit of equipment choices. There are times when I find that expansion of choice a significant burden and wish for a simpler kit again. There are other times I celebrate it, find it compelling. Right now it's compelling, which is why the SWC has been sitting idle for a while and there are three lenses and the A7 on my desk all the time.

I'll keep watching from the sidelines as this latest Sony creation comes to be. There's a nice thread about it chugging along already.

Now, back to the A7 vs M9 comparison, please?

thx
G

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Here

Sony Compact Medium Format Camera Coming « NEW CAMERA

 

[retow]

The top pictures have to be from the Sony as the higher resolving power of the 24MP sensor shows in comparison 9 with the airplane, which can`t be seen in the shot taken with the Leica.:ROTFL:

More seriously:
Very very difficult but I believe the top shots are from the Leica because of the way the greens are rendered and because they seem to show slightly less DR.

 

[Steve P.]

I'll play.
Images 1-3, Leica A, Sony B.
Image 4, Sony A, Leica B.
Images 5-7, Leica A, Sony B.
Image 8, Sony A, Leica B.
Images 9&10, Leica A, Sony B.
Please bear in mind I've never shot with either camera and that my opinion, therefore, may very well be as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
Fun though.

 

[Godfrey]

I love your discriminator, retow. ;-)

I've got the Elmarit-R 135mm on the A7 at present. I think I'll go for a walk now ...

G

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Have not looked yet but the clue would be the DR is less on the M9, no question about it and with that colors would be more saturated. That's the nature of a CCD. Don't let that sway a decision though as the saturation on a CMOS in post can be easily had.

 

[jlm]

after using the Sony focus mag and full frame field of view, my favorite features, (and what functionality that brings...24mm TS, for example) , the M pales in comparison from that point of view.

 

[fotografz]

I didn't try to second guess which brand was used … just picked the image I preferred over the other …

1a, 2a&b-equally disliked, 3b, 4a, 5b, 6a, 7a, 8a, 9b, 10b

No shots of humans makes it harder to evaluate for a big percentage of what I shoot.

I sold my M9 in anticipation of the M240 … which I then rejected (so far) because I do not like the image characteristic from the CMOS sensor. Working with a A7R now, but still can't reproduce the look and feel of the M9s I used for years … even using M lenses. I'm working on it.

- Marc

 

[Godfrey]

Ok, I guess that's enough fun ..

The comparison photos line up like this:

The raw files coming out of the two cameras are very different processed to Lightroom's defaults, both in white balance (AWB) and overall contrast, as you can (hopefully) see from the unprocessed raw files in these pair strips:

Top row is Leica M9, bottom is Sony A7, in both sets of five frames.​

That would have made it too easy to guess which camera made which image for anyone who was familiar with processing raw files from either. So I took a few minutes time to adjust the white balance, contrast, and exposure so that they had a similar feel.

What I didn't do was any changes to lens characteristics, other than turning on LaCA removal for all exposures from both cameras. The thing to look for (as one person commented) was that the M-Rokkor 40 at f/4.7 on the A7 would produce slightly darkened corners compared to the M9 at the same lens opening. The other indicator (which several people commented on) was that the M9 produces very vivid greens which are difficult to match with the standard camera calibration profiles provided by Lightroom for the two cameras.

Note:
If I create a custom camera profile for both with Xrite Passport software and a color checker, the resulting colors are virtually indistinguishable.. This is why I've always maintained that using the colors produced by the CCD sensor in the Leica as a proof of its so-called superiority is hogwash. The color spec is far more influenced by calibration and image processing than by the technology of the sensor. ​

Sharpness was not a good discriminator. Even if you had the full resolution images to work with, all of these photos were made hand-held. It would be impossible to say with any credibility that one camera out-performed the other based upon resolution potential given the same lens and this test.

So which camera wins for me?

Well, it's a mixed bag. Neither camera is perfect, each has advantages and disadvantages. And I like shooting with both of them. I can afford to keep both if I want to. But I know that I'll get more use out of the Sony due to its viewfinder, greater sensitivity, and lens versatility. And I know that I will likely not be able to afford buying comparable quality lenses for the M9 across the board like I have for the A7. I feel the overall imaging performance is close enough to a wash that that's not a consideration.

A fun comparison.

Godfrey

 

[fotografz]

Well, at least I am consistent with my opinion since I selected the M9 eight out of ten times … and changed #1 at the last minute by second guessing myself and the IQ … (I marked #2 a draw because it had little content to evaluate) … so I really got eight out of nine in favor of the M9.

While I like the A7R and the versatility it provides, I prefer shooting with a rangefinder over most anything else because of the elimination of distractions in favor of content. What makes the Sony fun, is the opposite of that … it's all about the camera and all that it can do.

They both have their place.

- Marc