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Thread: A7s!

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    Re: A7s!

    There's a combined screwdriver and hacksaw?
    I'll pay ANYTHING!
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    Re: A7s!

    It appears as of 4pm U.K. time, wex U.K. is no longer offering to pre-order the A7s. Very curious.

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    Re: A7s!

    This iso video test is absolutely insane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgbUgNiHfXM

    I have no doubt that it will be even better when it comes to dealing with RAW stills, but still if it's as expensive as previously advertised I'm out.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    It appears as of 4pm U.K. time, wex U.K. is no longer offering to pre-order the A7s. Very curious.
    Most likely the wrong price or Sony made them pull it.
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    This iso video test is absolutely insane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgbUgNiHfXM

    I have no doubt that it will be even better when it comes to dealing with RAW stills, but still if it's as expensive as previously advertised I'm out.
    Saw it and bottom line how could you not want it. LOL
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    Re: A7s!

    Oh my god ... WHO needs such a HORRIBLE video ... same with 204.800 and 102.400
    Perhaps people waiting for 10.485.760 ISO ...


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    Re: A7s!

    If it is a choice between darkness and getting a shot, I'll take the shot. Given that people will willingly watch crap quality on youtube, for certain applications that shot is acceptable, and likely could not be gotten with another camera.
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    Re: A7s!

    Agree and shooting by fire pit type lighting would be rare for me. I will take the shot always.

    Im only looking for 2 stops in my life, after that pull out lights. LOL
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    Re: A7s!

    BTW when is the expected release for this.
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    Re: A7s!

    I suspect summer. The "fire pit" shot is often what I'm shooting (dark clubs, sometimes with hot spots on stage that blow out most any camera). So while I loved the 36mp resolution, 12mp and iso gazillion really is a better fit for my needs.

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    Re: A7s!

    The video is totally amazing when you think about it (ISO 409,600???? Crikey!!!!) but to the typical YouTube viewer the video looks like a slightly grainy (but not too bad) fire on a beach at dusk.

    Without some sort of visual cue (like a crescent moon, someone reading a newspaper by penlight or bats gathering for a singalong) there's no way anyone has any idea (let alone appreciate) of what has been achieved.

    What an amazing camera for no-light buffs. (Or making night time videos of people in the buff!)
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by hot View Post
    Oh my god ... WHO needs such a HORRIBLE video ... same with 204.800 and 102.400
    Perhaps people waiting for 10.485.760 ISO ...

    For most, the point is not shooting 400K ISO video, but clean 51,200 is interesting and no other camera offers that, particularly not at this size.
    We don't get wiser as we get older. It's a myth.
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    Re: A7s!

    Why do the highlights (i.e., the campfire) not blow out completely as the ISO is increased? The dynamic range in the scene has to be huge.
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    Re: A7s!

    I don't wish to take pictures or video in total darkness and have it look like day time, they should look dark if it IS dark, but as long as the sensor can see in darkness it can continue to autofocus correctly and that's why that video is revealing!

    EDIT: further thoughts... what if on top of the regular enlarged view as focus aid, you can also increase exposures to help manual focus in the dark?
    Last edited by Hosermage; 11th April 2014 at 11:50.
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For most, the point is not shooting 400K ISO video, but clean 51,200 is interesting and no other camera offers that, particularly not at this size.
    Exactly my point. I shot a wedding with the A7 and when people hit the dance floor there was VERY VERY little light. There was a lot of iso 6200 shots that were just not acceptable. Sure, I don't need iso 400k, but if I had perfectly clean iso 12800 it would have been awesome. I cannot begin to imagine what I would have done with usable iso 51200.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Exactly my point. I shot a wedding with the A7 and when people hit the dance floor there was VERY VERY little light. There was a lot of iso 6200 shots that were just not acceptable. Sure, I don't need iso 400k, but if I had perfectly clean iso 12800 it would have been awesome. I cannot begin to imagine what I would have done with usable iso 51200.
    I'll believe it when I see it. By that, I mean see it in a real life situation, not some controlled environment. My guess right now is that a perfectly clean ISO 12,800 is a pipe dream but I would LOVE to be wrong.

    Through out the development of digital, the quest for high ISO capture has been the Holy Grail, and while it has advanced, in every case the compromises in color, tonal separation, DR, (and in some cases the structure of the noise), has been nothing short of disappointing despite claims to the contrary. Okay for arty stuff where there is a suspension of disbelief, but not acceptable in far too many other situations.

    I remain skeptical, but open to being wrong and being willing to celebrate that wrongness publicly when proven so

    - Marc
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    Re: A7s!

    > compromises in color, tonal separation, DR, (and in some cases the structure of the noise), has been nothing short of disappointing despite claims to the contrary.

    The technical term is probably: Parlour tricks.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'll believe it when I see it. By that, I mean see it in a real life situation, not some controlled environment. My guess right now is that a perfectly clean ISO 12,800 is a pipe dream but I would LOVE to be wrong.

    Through out the development of digital, the quest for high ISO capture has been the Holy Grail, and while it has advanced, in every case the compromises in color, tonal separation, DR, (and in some cases the structure of the noise), has been nothing short of disappointing despite claims to the contrary. Okay for arty stuff where there is a suspension of disbelief, but not acceptable in far too many other situations.

    I remain skeptical, but open to being wrong and being willing to celebrate that wrongness publicly when proven so

    - Marc
    Marc, believe it. Clean 12,800 is a done deal with the "S". Clean 25,600 is also likely in reach with the final firmware. You won't believe how clean it is until you try it for yourself. This camera shoots in light I can't even see in!

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    Re: A7s!

    Marc, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of high ISO performance vs. some of the characterizations I read elsewhere.There is a difference between usable vs. acceptable which of course greatly depends on intended use of the files.

    It's interesting to note, that the often lambasted Nikon Df actually is very competitive when compared to the A7s, aside from not having video. It's high ISO performance is near the top of the class with exceptionally good color and DR and very competant AF/ tracking systems.

    Yes different tools but where the Df ' s lowly 16mp was often criticized, the A7s' s 12 mp resolution is now widely accepted. This last point I do find a bit perplexing.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Marc, believe it. Clean 12,800 is a done deal with the "S". Clean 25,600 is also likely in reach with the final firmware. You won't believe how clean it is until you try it for yourself. This camera shoots in light I can't even see in!


    I'm going into this with

    12 meg doesn't bother me if that kind of clean ISO is possible. I've had plenty of cameras that were 10 to 16 meg that worked just fine for a good deal of images. The A7R can do the rest.

    - marc

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post


    I'm going into this with

    12 meg doesn't bother me if that kind of clean ISO is possible. I've had plenty of cameras that were 10 to 16 meg that worked just fine for a good deal of images. The A7R can do the rest.

    - marc
    Now your thinking just like me. It's exactly perfect for a lot of work.
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Marc, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of high ISO performance vs. some of the characterizations I read elsewhere.There is a difference between usable vs. acceptable which of course greatly depends on intended use of the files.

    It's interesting to note, that the often lambasted Nikon Df actually is very competitive when compared to the A7s, aside from not having video. It's high ISO performance is near the top of the class with exceptionally good color and DR and very competant AF/ tracking systems.

    Yes different tools but where the Df ' s lowly 16mp was often criticized, the A7s' s 12 mp resolution is now widely accepted. This last point I do find a bit perplexing.

    Dave (D&A)
    No vertical grip kept me far away from it otherwise great cam. Little pricey though
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Now your thinking just like me. It's exactly perfect for a lot of work.
    Lol. Although I know little about practicing law, imagine if we were in a court of law and a prosecutor decided to challenge you (under oath of course) your statement above that "for a lot of work ,12 mp is exactly perfect". He might dredge up your recent comment on a previous thread regarding your choice of the 36 mp A7r over the 24 mp A7 of saying "Go big or go home"....LOL. I can hear him saying "Ok Mr. Mancuso, please tell the court, which way is it...go home with less than 36 mp or is 12 mp perfect for a lot of work?" LOL!

    Of course you know I'm just pulling your leg Guy (probably because I don't want to be kicked . )

    As for your thoughts about a grip for the Df, I too thought the same thing but with a particular aftermarket 1/2 case for that camera that extends the existing grip where ones fingers rest and also allows access to battery and card without its removal, only lack of a vertical shutter button remains desirable at times.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 13th April 2014 at 07:06.

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    Re: A7s!

    Actually Dave your right I did say that for sure but I was more referring to just one body but two bodies this is a nice combo. For PR stuff 12 is enough in a lot of cases but I still need and want a 36 or better. Heck I'm itching for more . Lol

    But this A7s will solve a big issue and I do not like noise at all. So if I can get ISO 3200 clean for stills than it really gives me the 2 stops of speed or aperture that I could use. The A7 is too much like the A7r in noise dept. So having the A7s and A7r I would be lacking very little and I still have my eye on maybe a 36 Slt body if one came around. One reason I bought most of my glass in A mounts 4 of them. 14,35,85 and 135 are all A mounts. Just in case I make a swing than I'm covered on both mounts.
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    Re: A7s!

    While great noise performance at higher ISOs brought by fat pixels is first thing that grabs people's attention I am much more interested what benefit, if any, I would get from files at base ISO. If I could dream give me 16-bit depth lossless RAW with great dynamic range, tonality ...

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually Dave your right I did say that for sure but I was more referring to just one body but two bodies this is a nice combo. For PR stuff 12 is enough in a lot of cases but I still need and want a 36 or better. Heck I'm itching for more . Lol

    But this A7s will solve a big issue and I do not like noise at all. So if I can get ISO 3200 clean for stills than it really gives me the 2 stops of speed or aperture that I could use. The A7 is too much like the A7r in noise dept. So having the A7s and A7r I would be lacking very little and I still have my eye on maybe a 36 Slt body if one came around. One reason I bought most of my glass in A mounts 4 of them. 14,35,85 and 135 are all A mounts. Just in case I make a swing than I'm covered on both mounts.
    Yes with two bodies, your strategy makes perfect sense. Like yourself, I too have an aversion to noise in higher ISO files, which I often have little choice but to use. Cleaning up even moderate amounts of noise in hundreds of files from a single shoot, isn't my cup of tea.

    I think of noise like cauliflower, I have don't like dealing with either. LOL!

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 13th April 2014 at 15:20.
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    While great noise performance at higher ISOs brought by fat pixels is first thing that grabs people's attention I am much more interested what benefit, if any, I would get from files at base ISO. If I could dream give me 16-bit depth lossless RAW with great dynamic range, tonality ...
    I have a shooting aquantance who feels the same way. He loves to use the best high ISO performing fat pixels cameras and exclusively use them for low light tripod supported shots solely at base ISO.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Marc, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of high ISO performance vs. some of the characterizations I read elsewhere.There is a difference between usable vs. acceptable which of course greatly depends on intended use of the files.

    It's interesting to note, that the often lambasted Nikon Df actually is very competitive when compared to the A7s, aside from not having video. It's high ISO performance is near the top of the class with exceptionally good color and DR and very competant AF/ tracking systems.

    Yes different tools but where the Df ' s lowly 16mp was often criticized, the A7s' s 12 mp resolution is now widely accepted. This last point I do find a bit perplexing.

    Dave (D&A)
    Perplexion cured. The Df is a still camera, and in this day and age, 12mp is a tough sell - it isn't really doing anything that a previous camera couldn't do well (other than all the manual controls). The A7s does stills and video, both at ridiculously high iso. Hence the acceptance.

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    Re: A7s!

    The DF was and is really intended as a throw back to yesteryear of a film camera. Nice market segment and a lot of folks would like that feel of it. Issue is technology wise no real advantage over current models in other brands including there own. Price does hurt it if you ask me. For 2700 dollars there are a lot of very competent cameras is 24 and higher MPX with more functionality. But having said all that people will buy it for what it is and it does give you that nostalgia feel. I get that and its great for those after such things. I actually might of stayed in Nikon if it had a vertical grip as i was happy with the D800e pretty much except for live view stuff but my next choice for the PR cam was like the D7000 which did not excite me at all. The DF could have been it but with no vertical grip it left me out.

    At least for me this is how I felt. YMMV
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post


    I'm going into this with

    12 meg doesn't bother me if that kind of clean ISO is possible. I've had plenty of cameras that were 10 to 16 meg that worked just fine for a good deal of images. The A7R can do the rest.

    - marc
    Wish I could post them Marc, but the body I shot was definitely using prototype firmware, (Version 0.01 no less!) so is not fair and would likely get me tossed from the next press event if posted, so your just going to have to wait for the "official" release to see the actual images. Suffice it to say -get your order in - you will be impressed. I certainly was, and I am a hard guy to impress.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I have a shooting aquantance who feels the same way. He loves to use the best high ISO performing fat pixels cameras and exclusively use them for low light tripod supported shots solely at base ISO.
    and logic behind this is (those cameras are either Nikon 12-16mp sensors or something like Canon 1Dx) what exactly ? do they perfrom better than D800* downscaled to their 12-16-18mp @ base ISO ? you can neither saturate the whole sensor there more than you can D800* nor beat D800* in readout noise... so what's the point ? @ base ISO D800* beats or matches those cameras (when you scale the image to their mp) in SNR (above deep shadows performance) and annihilates them in DR (deep shadows performance)... now if you go to high gains they can outdo Sony Semi, but at base ISO
    A7RII + FE55/1.8

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I am much more interested what benefit, if any, I would get from files at base ISO.
    Not much, because the sensor size is the same and no new tech was announced to reduce the readout noise noticeably... unless you want to pixel peep the lonely sensel... specifically when Sony Imaging is known to get less numbers (DR wise) from Sony Semi sensors vs what others can do (compare D610 vs A7 for example)... so don't really dream about more than 0.5 stops (when you scale A7r or A7 down to 12mp of A7s) gain for the wholse sensor (vs Sony models, less vs Nikon cameras) and if that camera is more optimized (vs A7r, A7) for highspeed readout for video than stills performance will be compromised...
    A7RII + FE55/1.8

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    Re: A7s!

    @ Marc:

    I agree with your points re. high ISO completely (and your point about 12Mp being enough for a lot of work). My question relates to nostatic's requirement (and many others like him, including me) of the need to shoot in dim environments that also have very bright spots that one wants to see into in the same frame. One of the aspects of shooting neg. film is its shoulder and toe (or was it knee?) capacity (highlights that have details and shadows that have details), even though the ASA was relatively low.

    And shooting video outside, when there's way too much light, or more precisely, when the difference between open sunlight and shadow is so great that you can only expose for one or the other. I suspect that the A7s will perform very well in these situations. The OM5 I am using as one of my bodies has that flakey highlight and shadow adjustment screen; I want an intelligent application of that which analyses the scene, and uses that huge DR to allow you to 'pull' a "zone of acceptable exposure" through an image (like a slice of in focus). Having details at both ends of the range would allow incredible video. I know that all can be down in Raw, but as these devices get smarter, not too big an ask, you'd think.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    and logic behind this is (those cameras are either Nikon 12-16mp sensors or something like Canon 1Dx) what exactly ? do they perfrom better than D800* downscaled to their 12-16-18mp @ base ISO ? you can neither saturate the whole sensor there more than you can D800* nor beat D800* in readout noise... so what's the point ? @ base ISO D800* beats or matches those cameras (when you scale the image to their mp) in SNR (above deep shadows performance) and annihilates them in DR (deep shadows performance)... now if you go to high gains they can outdo Sony Semi, but at base ISO
    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    Not much, because the sensor size is the same and no new tech was announced to reduce the readout noise noticeably... unless you want to pixel peep the lonely sensel... specifically when Sony Imaging is known to get less numbers (DR wise) from Sony Semi sensors vs what others can do (compare D610 vs A7 for example)... so don't really dream about more than 0.5 stops (when you scale A7r or A7 down to 12mp of A7s) gain for the wholse sensor (vs Sony models, less vs Nikon cameras) and if that camera is more optimized (vs A7r, A7) for highspeed readout for video than stills performance will be compromised...
    I heard those arguments before and according to them picture taken with gazzilion pixels sensor will, when downscaled to one pixel, have infinite dynamic range, infinite tonality, etc, and will be always much better than picture taken with sensor of same size that has one pixel.

    However, I am not a practicing sensor physicist, nor I play one on the 'net, I am just a guy that is trying to use some common sense, and my gut feeling is nagging me that something doesn't sound right with that picture. So I will not be wasting my time getting entangled in wannabe academic discussions, instead I will wait for A7S, put it side by side with my A7R and see will those fat pixels deliver to me what I am speculating they might or not. If they do great, if they don't it will still be worth my effort.

  36. #186
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    Re: A7s!

    Did anyone see these non scientific high iso tests?

    Sony A7s ISO Comparison

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Did anyone see these non scientific high iso tests?

    Sony A7s ISO Comparison
    Rafael:
    Yes I saw that the other day. Nice to see the range of ISO. Only wish the raw files existed. The high noise reduction makes it difficult to evaluate how useful the middle (12,800 to 51,200) ISO levels will be. Suffice it to say that at least 2 (and maybe more) stops of usable ISO will exist over the already very good capability of the A7R. I only need really clean ISO 6,400 (would love really clean 12,800) so this camera is very exciting to me (as long as the autofocus can actually take advantage of 6,400 and above). But as a long time Sony follower I think it's several months after general availability by the public before we can say with assurance whether this camera is "the one" Sony camera for indoor shooting.

    Regards,
    John

  38. #188
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    Re: A7s!

    Sony is certainly converting a lot of photographers. Many switched from MFD to the Nikon D800/e, and now many are switching from the D800/e to the Sony A7/r/s. This is one of the few companies that are stepping up with innovative products at reasonable price points. With the A7s pixel pitch being somewhere around 8.4, this should result in very clean ISO up to 12,800 and most likely good for fast sports - fat pixels rule for soaking up color! the Sony "S" also shoots up to 200fps, albeit, lower resolution, but 200fps!

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I heard those arguments before and according to them picture taken with gazzilion pixels sensor will, when downscaled to one pixel, have infinite dynamic range, infinite tonality, etc, and will be always much better than picture taken with sensor of same size that has one pixel.

    However, I am not a practicing sensor physicist, nor I play one on the 'net, I am just a guy that is trying to use some common sense, and my gut feeling is nagging me that something doesn't sound right with that picture. So I will not be wasting my time getting entangled in wannabe academic discussions, instead I will wait for A7S, put it side by side with my A7R and see will those fat pixels deliver to me what I am speculating they might or not. If they do great, if they don't it will still be worth my effort.
    To see this visually, here is a High ISO comparison I did between the 16MP Nikon Df and 36MP Nikon D800; the A7s will likely perform similarly to the Df and the A7r has the same sensor as the D800.

    Df vs D800 vs 6D High ISO and DR

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I heard those arguments before and according to them picture taken with gazzilion pixels sensor will, when downscaled to one pixel, have infinite dynamic range, infinite tonality, etc, and will be always much better than picture taken with sensor of same size that has one pixel.
    no such arguments were made... we are not talking about 1 sensel per sensor or "gazzilion pixels" per sensor... we are talking just about 12mp vs 24mp or 12mp vs 36mp... what does your "common sense" (quoted intentionally, because it is not) says about performance of D4/D4s/Df/1Dx vs D800*/D600/D610 ? do you see some magical unexplained increase in performance when 36/24mp are downscaled to 16/18mp of those ? indeed there are benefits that Nikon or Canon architecture vs Sony architecture achieve @ high gains (but not at base ISO where the friend of the poster for unknown reasons try to use those cameras) - but A7s has a Sony sensor and most probably same Sony tech (multiple ADCs on die)... so to expect any drastic changes is not a common sense at all for still shots.




    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    my gut feeling is nagging me that something doesn't sound right with that picture.
    what does your gut say about the shape of Earth ? do you feel that it is a geoid ?
    A7RII + FE55/1.8

  41. #191
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A7s!

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    To see this visually, here is a High ISO comparison I did between the 16MP Nikon Df and 36MP Nikon D800; the A7s will likely perform similarly to the Df and the A7r has the same sensor as the D800.

    Df vs D800 vs 6D High ISO and DR
    Thank you, but it is not high ISO that I am interested in.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    no such arguments were made... we are not talking about 1 sensel per sensor or "gazzilion pixels" per sensor... we are talking just about 12mp vs 24mp or 12mp vs 36mp...
    I see you didn't recognize common sense I am was referring to. Let me help you by making it simpler: Logic that says "36MP downsized to 12 MP will result in better picture (better dynamic range etc)" can be extended to "1 gazzilion megapixels downsized to 12 MP will be even better". Then that logic can be further extended to "1 gazzilion megapixels downsized to 8, 4, 2, 1, 0.5 MP will keep getting even better and better until DR etc becomes infinite when downsized to just one pixel". And we know infinite DR etc is impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    what does your gut say about the shape of Earth ? do you feel that it is a geoid ?
    My gut feeling doesn't have to tell me anything about shape of Earth. But your post is telling me two things: 1. Poster might come over to GetDPI from DPR, but will not necessarily leave DPR part of them at the door. 2. DPR village is missing you.

  44. #194
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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I see you didn't recognize common sense I am was referring to. Let me help you ...
    ...
    that logic can be further extended to "1 gazzilion megapixels downsized to 8, 4, 2, 1, 0.5 MP will keep getting even better and better until DR etc becomes infinite when downsized to just one pixel". And we know infinite DR etc is impossible.
    Preferring that we don't over-help each other, let me just toss out a couple of snippets from forums-chatter elsewhere (FM) related to this point, and suggest that there need to be pixels sufficient to present the image hoped to be cleaned of image-detractors such as noise.

    In the case at hand, one can ask how Guy et al. have found such downsizing --if tried?-- to improve (print?) IQ, which improvement could be compared to the hoped-for ability of the A7s & D4s & DF.

    One of the most important aspects of a high-res camera (I know, I nag about this...) is that you can downsample the images. A downsampled image will --if it is done right-- contain loads and loads more of actual real reality-based detail in the image file.
    I've shown the difference between a D3x downsampled => 12MP file and a D700 native 12MP file many times. When you see them side by side the D700 at it's native resolution looks like something that's been up-sampled in comparison. It makes you wonder about the "12MP" label we put on the image, since it doesn't even closely resemble an image with all 12MPs filled with real resolution detail.

    [ Another poster adds ]
    I'd always known my 5Dc to be far superior to my 1Ds3 at ISO 1600 till I downrezzed to match resolution when suddenly not only was the noise better but, even at the same pixel count, so was the detail.
    At least it's nice to see the mpix lust now going in both directions --from the typical (recently alleged by Kirk Tuck no longer right (!)) "more = better", to now "fewer = really nice"!
    .:. Anything but what we have, eh?


    -drofnad

  45. #195
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    Re: A7s!

    Hey folks lets leave the personal insults at the door or I will sweep you off the mat. This is not DPR. My hard arch moment here is I do not like any insults directed at anyone its not the GetDPI way. Capice
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  46. #196
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    Re: A7s!

    To the question at hand Phase One on there IQ backs has a technology called pixel binning. In essence it takes a 60 mpx back and knocks it down to 15mpx through a process to get higher ISO images at 15 mpx. I had one and ISO 1600 was very clean when shot in this mode compared to the full 60mpx which was about the same as ISO 400. This is a technology that is different than simply downsizing say from 36mpx to 12 or 24 although that effect works its a different technology. I don't know enough technically to speak on this subject but yea you can downsize to get better looking files . Problem here is you bringing your file size down which in turn also brings your print sizing down as well. Its a trade off no doubt but here with this Sony sensor its a little different because we are not talking about the same sensor as lets say knocking down the A7r to 12 mpx. The new S sensor has big photo sites that absorb light which in turn can give you higher ISO. Maybe someone can explain this process better than me but my educated guess is the S sensor outside of video should produce a higher ISO value compared to the 36mpx sensor. Which BTW at 1600 is good but not awesome. Cams like the DF, D4 with the lower mpx sensors work in the same way. My guess would be this S sensor should perform similar or better to those Nikons. Now until we get it in our hands we don't know how it will compare to them but even if we get a D4 higher ISO values in our Sonys than we just got a bonus on it. I personally would be happy with the D4 higher ISO values which I think are very clean at least 3200. Ill take that in a heartbeat.

    But if you can pull Doug from the MF section he can explain Pixel Binning far better than my comments that are used on the Phase backs its pretty interesting technology they are using
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by drofnad View Post
    Preferring that we don't over-help each other, let me just toss out a couple of snippets from forums-chatter elsewhere (FM) related to this point, and suggest that there need to be pixels sufficient to present the image hoped to be cleaned of image-detractors such as noise.

    In the case at hand, one can ask how Guy et al. have found such downsizing --if tried?-- to improve (print?) IQ, which improvement could be compared to the hoped-for ability of the A7s & D4s & DF.



    At least it's nice to see the mpix lust now going in both directions --from the typical (recently alleged by Kirk Tuck no longer right (!)) "more = better", to now "fewer = really nice"!
    .:. Anything but what we have, eh?


    -drofnad
    I agree that downsizing will help with detail but detail is not the only thing in overall image perception I am interested in. And I too am very much interested how all of that will carry over into prints. I don't feel loads of technical analysis will give me as clear of a picture (pun intended) as will quick side-by-side look done to my personal taste. So A7S here I come once it is out (as long as price is within reason).

    And yes, anything but what we have, it's afterall common thread of many-a-forum

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    Re: A7s!

    i can't wait for this to come out. I think the at ISO 100k the files would be actually usable in black & white..... I miss the 10k ISO on the monochrom so much after I sold the camera, almost bought it back. then the A7s was announced. I'm glad I waited

  49. #199
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    Re: A7s!

    End of day no matter where you sit with your style of photography or whatever creative endeavor you take on as a shooter this is something all of us will watch closely. I know as many here as still shooters don't care too much about video or vis versa this has a certain charm to it that maybe just a great tool to have at our disposal. I think the very cool part about this announcement and the new Pentax 645 is some real ground breaking advancements. Buy it or not either one we have to give both companies our respect for taking some risks and as a industry that seems to be sliding this is good news. I'm certainly embracing all of it and some great discussions to come on these products and some fun tools to explore.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A7s!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    End of day no matter where you sit with your style of photography or whatever creative endeavor you take on as a shooter this is something all of us will watch closely. I know as many here as still shooters don't care too much about video or vis versa this has a certain charm to it that maybe just a great tool to have at our disposal. I think the very cool part about this announcement and the new Pentax 645 is some real ground breaking advancements. Buy it or not either one we have to give both companies our respect for taking some risks and as a industry that seems to be sliding this is good news. I'm certainly embracing all of it and some great discussions to come on these products and some fun tools to explore.
    Exactly! Advancements benefit us all in the long run even if something is not of interest to particular individual at particular time. That is universally applicable.

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