A-Pix technology, PDF here), which allows two levels of conversion gain, one optimized for low ISO and the other for High ISO, but even with this significant improvement the D4's low ISO DR performance is still 1EV below the A7r/D800.
That is with 12 MP technology that is 3-4 years older than sensor with more MP. Which makes me very curious what the results will look like with 12 MP technology that is newer than 36 MP one. Having A7S by the side of A7R will satisfy my curiosity. Now lets keep our fingers crossed that price is within reason.
Can anyone enlighten me/us, Q: is a 12Mpixel FF sensor likely to be harder to make and hence have lower yields than the A7/r?
Surely a lot of the development of the A7s is already done in the form of the A7/r ?
I am not arguing the point, rather trying to understand why it should cost more than the A7/r?
The A7s is a brand new sensor design. The one-time R&D costs (NRE) are significant but its volumes will likely be far less than the A7/A7r sensors, even if Sony decides to sell it to other camera makers. That cost needs to be recaptured.
From a value basis, the A7s is tailored toward high-end video production. The inclusion of S-Log2 is a good indicator of that. Such users would see more value in this product and are also less sensitive to price.
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In setting a price Sony find themselves dealing with crossover markets again - low Mp mainly stills shooters and the video people. What proportions are likely for these two groups? Will a 90% video user group be large enough sales wise?
The 36Mp sensor first saw light of day in Feb 2012 and the 24Mp sensor debuted in Nikon D600 guise in Sept 2012 and in Sony's a99 at around the same time. These were landmark sensors in all the good things - DR, recovery, colour - and are aging very gracefully.
The extra 2 stops of range at base was the key, but how much more would be really compelling as a trade-off for a return to 12Mp, for one camera users? If they ask three large it will have to be very special for stills photographers to get on board. I still expect a pleasant surprise price-wise, the body is tooled up already and the other a7 models are discounted.
Note too this new sensor is, as far as we know, a Sony-only release at this stage. Maybe that is a victory of the camera division over the sensor outfit, which needs little help right now.
It's a strange one, Annna, it might be very special. It's a good position for them to be in as many folks still really like that resolution level in their FF cameras, and it is no coincidence two of the most loved DSLRs are the classic 5D and the D700. We will soon see if Sony have anything up their sleeve besides their arm ;-)
For sure tastes vary widely, for example I feel an acute revulsion just picking up a DSLR now! For me they are already part of the richness of the past, but for others - just right.
''However much resolution you guys throw, we will catch'' - Garret Brown talks with Philip Bloom and Sony re what happens next with 4K, might be of interest in this thread:
Garrett Brown (inventor of Steadicam and Stanley Kubrick cameraman) is “excitied” about the Sony A7s! | sonyalpharumors
Garret wants cameras as small as possible too, and: "We have an endless hunger for resolution."
For example, there is no excuse for A7 series to offer only two image ratios while EM5, camera two years older than it and half it's price, offers four, especially whan it's a simple firmware matter. That is what causes revulsion in me when I pick up my A7R. It's great perfromance deserves a well throught out wrapper around it, not one that makes you feel it has been designed by pop designers just out of high school for Hello Kitty generation with attention deficit disorder, not by high level professionals for high level professionals / amateurs.
It makes me wonder what whole Sony chain of command was thinking when signing off on it, did they at all solicit and pay attention to opinion of people that used it long enough before doing so.
Looks like Sony will ask big for the a7s release date - a major retail chain in Aust is taking orders - $A3499 (=$US3250).
Sony A7s gets a pricing in Australia ($3499 AUSD). | sonyalpharumors
Yep, the feeling seems to be that street US prices will be much more reasonable. It would have to be the final solution for video for them to price it out of the reach of most interested would be buyers. Only one dealer too, and not a particularly good one.
Sony will be walking the fine line there. On one side it won't be mass demand item with matching volume price. On other side they will have to be careful not to price themselves out of the market, especially when one remembers what kind of fan base GH4, that will very likely be much cheaper, is having.
2700 seems like the right price point to me. Just a gut thing
Mirrorless rumours reports that A7s pricing will be announced on May 7th.
It is rumoured to be around $1800, according to them. Fingers ( and everything else!) crossed.
If that is the case IŽll get it FOR SURE!
IŽve filmed a wedding this weekend and I kept thinking how awesome it would have been ot have had the A7s with me in certain shots.
If that indeed does turn out to be the price, and if the reviews are good and I can live with the lack of phase detect autofocus, then I too would bite at that price. I'm hoping the lower res sensor will make the output from my old legacy lenses look better than a high res sensor.. the extra low light performance would be a bonus.
I might be switch gears on it and get the A77II. I'd sell my A7 keep the A7r. Trying to build 2 different camera sets with the same glass. I'm a little in the air on what move is next.
If $1800 is correct price my feeling is it will sell well.
here). For High ISO though the A7s has monster DR - it's 1.7 stops better than the current leader (Nikon Df) @ ISO 102,400.
Sony Alpha 7S sensor review: New low-light champ
A single A7s pixel will have a deeper well and thus can capture more light before it becomes saturated. But again we don't render individual pixels so the distinction is moot. And even though the A7s pixel will have more DR at the upper end (highlights due to more light captured), it will have less DR in the shadows due to the higher read noise associated with holding that extra light.
Last edited by horshack; 17th June 2014 at 19:55.
In looking at some recent cameras, the differences that seem to run counter to the more_pixels/area = higher_DR should be seen as evidence of some associated processing going on?
I.p., taking the 16mpx Pentax K5 II as a base, w/16mpx,
we can increase to 24 mpx per APS-C size with Sony A6000,
or retain the 16mpx and increase density/reduce size per ...
with the Olympus E-M5 (Sony sensor) or Panasonic GX7.
YET, K5-a6000-EM5-GX7 DxO DR values are, resp.: 14.1, 13.1, 12.3, 12.2.
Alongside the downsizing discussion, I am interested to see a range of images at lower ISO from the a7s - not much around at present - to get some appreciation of what MR was seeing in the files.
If the new sensor delivers more of something not quite tangible in data that is nevertheless apparent in images, it might point to whatever else Sony has been working on in this latest of its FF sensors. Particularly with the better lenses (MR used the FE55), it could make a very good adjunct to the high ISO / video strengths of the a7s.
Curious also to see whether the choice of 12Mp was one of efficiency - could the benefits find their way into the higher Mp sensors and densities favoured by Sony?
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The Camera Store posted their review of the camera:
Sony A7S Hands-On Field Test
Zoran, I am thinking you are a delightful cynic, lol.
Watching the Camera Store video, Chris seems pretty clearly to suggest video shooters are going to be much happier than still shooters, but he has a leaning towards video it appears. Not surprised he gets 'blurry shots' with the a7/a7r the way he manically waves the camera around like a prop - which I guess it is.
TBH, Sony's problem with the a7s for stills shooters is that the a7 and even more so the a7r (relative to res) are so competent already - in ALL light. He used a slow zoom, presumably FE 24-70, and took a lot of images *2-3 stops higher* EVs than I often do with the a7r:
I max out at 6400/f2/1/60s in general for highly acceptable but obviously compromised quality, well handled with RAW post work...but if we say you get say, 2 stops more EV for same quality..it's either more DOF or a more 'secure' s/speed.
Not much gets past those settings of mine, that is candle light or soft light shafts from far above skylights at best, and I seldom need longer FLs than 35-55mm which helps with h/holding. I always use wide-ish apertures in low light to take advantage of the preferred bokeh of my lenses (bought in part for just this characteristic) and to take out of play unwanted shadow details - I get images I prefer that way. Just thinking aloud here how I see it. At the moment anyway; all this stuff is a moveable feast, obviously.