A7r Crop Mode Vs A6000

[Guy Mancuso]

I shot these identical. So here is the process the A7r shot with the ZA 24mm F2 lens at F8 BUT IN CROP MODE. Than switched bodies with the A6000 shot it identical. Now i processed them both exactly the same in ACR since thats all I can use with the A6000. I gave them both equal shadow recovery and highlights. Im processing for the best image but I did everything the same. Now I figured out the dang sharpening in this program. I also found the secret don't use detail over 10 or either files gets bad artifacts. So sharpening at 100 radius at .7 detail at 10 and clarity at 8. Now they look nice and sharp but IMHO its a perfect combination of drawing the most out of the file without going overboard which a lot of people do. Maybe not so much here but i do see a lot of over sharpened images on the web, people get crazy. I want to get just above slightly soft but with detail. Im a little anal on sharpening and never take it too far. Anyway if you look at both these files I can't tell the dang difference. Now obviously I am in crop mode and would not normally do that with a A7r but what I was after is how good is this A6000 and no crop mode with 24mpx which for me is a big interest since I am trying to get longer on some lenses.

Anyway too long a paragraph there sorry . But I shot a bunch of these and Im pretty dang impressed with the A6000. BTW I did test my 24mm F2 since I just bought it used and its a good copy in my mind at 5.6 the corners look very good at F2.8 the center is a razor and stopping down anymore does nothing more. Boarders look very good at 5.6 as well and I am not going to bore you with showing all that in images just trust me the ZA 24mm can produce at F8 no one would every complain about the corners even to the picky pixel peeper that I am it would make stunning images. It may even be slightly better than my Zeiss 25mm F2. Ill take that anyday of the week

Okay to the two images . If you can guess them apart immediately than good on you. Its tough

 

[Guy Mancuso]

To me this makes the A6000 a extremely good backup to the power of the A7r. Its also a great travel cam and even on a Pro level for me i can use it on gigs. For 650 dollars I am extremely impressed by that alone.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay this time no adjustments to exposure , shadows or highlights or WB just the same sharpening method as above.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Wow not even a guess. Geez come on funsters

 

[adakshi]

Wow not even a guess. Geez come on funsters

1st one is A7r in both sets.

 

[Professional]

Ok, why do you want them to be different? And how much difference you want to see doing this test? even if that A6000 is way better than A7R in crop mode i will not buy it, i am waiting to get A77-II, that will be my main purchase over A6000, and as i say always, i am not rich enough to buy many cameras to test even some are cheap, i can buy A6000 because it is cheap but i will not use it over A7r and sooner or later i will buy A77 version 2, then i will never find someone to buy A6000 locally.

Sometimes i come here and most what i see is more tests and tests and tests, it became like members care about technical things more than the photos themselves, i want to see more beautiful stunning fantastic photos, but most of what i see is comparisons and tests shots.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Wow Tareg sorry to bother you with the comparison but let me be very clear as a working Pro. I need to know EXACTLY what to expect from anything I put in my hands. I will have all three bodies the A7r, A77II and the A6000 as they all serve a very different need but I also no matter what want a matched set of files as I can mix and match cameras with my files looking very similar given to the same job and client. This is far more important than you might think. If I deliver 600 images to a client I certainly don't want 200 of them looking radically different from the rest. That's a failure.

Now this was not meant to make a choice of buying one over the other, what ever gave you that idea in the first place. I want to add the A6000 to my workflow but I need to see how it compares to the A7r and I clearly said right out of the gate, I would not be shooting the A7r in crop mode anyway. But to test the A6000 I want to know how close it can get to the A7r if its ****, it will never make it in my bag. It's that simple, nothing goes in my bag unproven and more important untested. You don't like tests than turn the dial, it's that simple . But this is valuable information to a lot of people.

Now you want to see more artistic shots than the fun threads are good for that. But let me be even more clearer I don't need to sit here post images to prove how good I am. I'm a damn good photographer I already know that and get paid dearly for it. I need to prove nothing or show nothing. I'm here because I want to give back my 40 years of experience, you don't want to learn from me fine , turn the dial but I have taught many photographers here how to be better and they appreciate the tests that folks do and take the time without pay to actually do these and post these.

Sound snotty well your damn right. I do this for me but share with the community and frankly maybe I will never do it again either. Many people contribute here to share with others.

Now what did this test tell me. Btw the 1st in each series is the A6000. But I can tell immediately which I will need to correct for in post is the A6000 has about -8 points of desaturation and is slightly cooler in temp. To me that's important to know other than that it's very close in file and I can add this into my system without worry. Need to remember as a working Pro failure is not a option or I don't feed my family. It can't get anymore basic than that.

 

[Professional]

^^^ Ok, now it is very clear and understandable, i met one pro and he was saying the same, care about his gear and deliver the high quality and get paid, so i am sorry if my post was so harsh and offensive, i didn't know that you are pro and get paid for testing your gear, and sure if you are getting paid then i will do the same and buy more gear to have the best knowledge about what i have or need to do my work.

Well, maybe i am little annoying in my post, but really i didn't see much of that high quality artistic works from those pro including you, either you don't show your top best or maybe my standard about the quality is different here, but at least if someone is pro and have the great gear and high photography skill then i should see that in his works, but anyway, as you said, if i see it didn't show here then i just turn the dial.

I like to have an idea about technical things but it is too much here and it is going under many many pages, i spend maybe whole day just to read one page, so many times i am thinking why they wasting time in pages posting about technical details more than they are out shooting, but now just knowing you do this professionally and to help others looking for it i will not comment again, i apologize and i hope you don't mind i stay here reading and posting when i can regardless of that i am not a high technical gear person.

 

[ken_vs_ryu]

I see the menu board on the B shot of the 2nd set better than shot A.

 

[Georg Baumann]

Okay to the two images . If you can guess them apart immediately than good on you. Its tough

Looking at shadows, my guess would have been
1. A6000
2. A7R

which appears to be true, because when I answered, the file names could be seen. LOL

Thanks for doing that Guy, for the money the A6000 goes, this seems to be a very very good camera in deed!

 

[Tim]

Is the A6000 also lacking an AA filter of any strength?

I'll go..
1. A7r
2. A6000
my reasons are I see a tad more detail in the carpark in the first set and a bit more in the hill top left of the second set. I kinda reminds me of A7r
While there isn't much in it I prefer the look of #1 slightly. I hope my guess was wrong.

I think this is a fun thread.
The A6000 has probably been overlooked a lot due to the A7 range.

 

[ferrellmc]

Great comparison Guy. I honestly can't say which image is which, but I can say the A6000 is very impressive.

I think what astonishes me is the dynamic range these sensors have. Blue skies are very vibrant and shadow detail is very discernible - and it's a "cave effect" (looking into a dark area).

I've found with these two cameras at low ISO it is hard to see a difference. However, at high ISO you'll see higher quality from the A7R.

In this little test, I did a comparison of the A6000 and the A7R with high ISO, 100% crops. Just scroll down to the indoor shots ISO 16000 and ISO8000. Sony A6000 » Before The Coffee

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Looking at shadows, my guess would have been
1. A6000
2. A7R

which appears to be true, because when I answered, the file names could be seen. LOL

Thanks for doing that Guy, for the money the A6000 goes, this seems to be a very very good camera in deed!

Hey that's cheating. LOL but your correct the A6000 is the first image in both series.

The first series I did adjust shadows, highlights. So it's more equal between them

The second series I did not make those same adjustments. My take away the A7r handles the highlights a little better which seems to be more DR. That makes sense since it's coming from a full frame sensors. The A7r has more color saturation as well, again its a DR and pixel density advantage. Also seems a touch warmer in color temp as well.

All stuff that can be adjusted. My surprise here is just how close the A6000 is which very good indeed and the A77II should look the same since from what I understand its using the A6000 sensor. Now I did not test for noise here but sharpness wise it's very good, so no loss using the same lens on either if your shooting the A7r in crop mode which I have shot the A7 in crop mode to get more reach. That gets solved now with the APS sensor in both the A6000 and A77II.

What does impress me here is the APS sensor does perform better than expected. That's a good thing as this little cam can serve as a great backup, a second shooting cam in the field shooting two bodies. Plus as a single travel cam it can hold its own.

Love these options of use for it. So if you want to get really small than the A6000 outweighs its price tag IMHO.

I have some more samples I can post later

 

[Guy Mancuso]

^^^ Ok, now it is very clear and understandable, i met one pro and he was saying the same, care about his gear and deliver the high quality and get paid, so i am sorry if my post was so harsh and offensive, i didn't know that you are pro and get paid for testing your gear, and sure if you are getting paid then i will do the same and buy more gear to have the best knowledge about what i have or need to do my work.

Well, maybe i am little annoying in my post, but really i didn't see much of that high quality artistic works from those pro including you, either you don't show your top best or maybe my standard about the quality is different here, but at least if someone is pro and have the great gear and high photography skill then i should see that in his works, but anyway, as you said, if i see it didn't show here then i just turn the dial.

I like to have an idea about technical things but it is too much here and it is going under many many pages, i spend maybe whole day just to read one page, so many times i am thinking why they wasting time in pages posting about technical details more than they are out shooting, but now just knowing you do this professionally and to help others looking for it i will not comment again, i apologize and i hope you don't mind i stay here reading and posting when i can regardless of that i am not a high technical gear person.

You misunderstood . I do not get paid to test my gear. Its a prerequisite for me to test everything before I go on a real job and shoot for clients. I'm only posting tests for others to benefit from that what I have learned.

What I learned from this is to make some adjustments in the A6000 to match a little better to my main workhorse the A7r

Anytime there is a new piece of gear that hits the market many folks will test there gear to see what they are getting that's very normal in all forums.

Now posting real work than most Pros do not post client images on forums. I do very rarely for several reasons which I don't want to get to far off topic. But many of my clients work in corporate industries that are defense contractors, aerospace builders and stuff like that which cause liability issues for photographers plus people shots without releases and things of this nature. Usually there websites are good sources of what a photographers work looks like as those images are usually safe to post or released to use for promoting themselves only. I have such clients where I can't post what I shoot on a public forum. When I teach workshops those images of landscape work I can post as they are my personal work. Client work simply causes a liability issue in too many cases and most avoid it all together. I know I do

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Great comparison Guy. I honestly can't say which image is which, but I can say the A6000 is very impressive.

I think what astonishes me is the dynamic range these sensors have. Blue skies are very vibrant and shadow detail is very discernible - and it's a "cave effect" (looking into a dark area).

I've found with these two cameras at low ISO it is hard to see a difference. However, at high ISO you'll see higher quality from the A7R.

In this little test, I did a comparison of the A6000 and the A7R with high ISO, 100% crops. Just scroll down to the indoor shots ISO 16000 and ISO8000. Sony A6000 » Before The Coffee

Totally agree in a noise test with higher ISO the full frames will win out and I also agree with you on just how close they are. Sure some adjustments are needed but this maybe the best I have seen a APS sensor do in this type of comparison . I find that encouraging

 

[mjr]

Guy

A question, just because I have no idea of the answer, if you are using the A7r in crop mode, aren't you forcing it to be basically an aps sized sensor? In which case, why would there be a difference between a crop A7r and the A6000, you've effectively made them the same? Wouldn't the test be better to upres the A6000 file to match the A7r? That way you'd see what the differences are when wanting to match files, basically as you're not using the A7r in crop mode. I'm guessing the advantage of the A6000 is the af speed or reliability otherwise there's no point having it, just use the A7r in crop mode. Matching the A6000 file to a reduced A7r file just doesn't seem to make much sense to me, especially if you aren't planning on using the A7r in crop mode.

It's quite possible that I just don't get it!

Mat

 

[Professional]

Guy

A question, just because I have no idea of the answer, if you are using the A7r in crop mode, aren't you forcing it to be basically an aps sized sensor? In which case, why would there be a difference between a crop A7r and the A6000, you've effectively made them the same? Wouldn't the test be better to upres the A6000 file to match the A7r? That way you'd see what the differences are when wanting to match files, basically as you're not using the A7r in crop mode. I'm guessing the advantage of the A6000 is the af speed or reliability otherwise there's no point having it, just use the A7r in crop mode. Matching the A6000 file to a reduced A7r file just doesn't seem to make much sense to me, especially if you aren't planning on using the A7r in crop mode.

It's quite possible that I just don't get it!

Mat

That was my main point when i asked why he wanted both to be same or how much difference he would see, why i buy A6000 if the crop mode from A7r is almost same or identical or maybe better than A6000 shot itself.

In fact, the only thing i care about A6000 over A7r is more fps and maybe faster AF, so that i am waiting A77II, i was hoping if Guy did shoot with A7r at full frame mode and then crop the shot to be equivalent to A6000 24mp resolution and then see the result, he can use different lenses to make it more sense, for example using 100mm on A6000 and 150mm on A7r if that A6000 is about 1.5x crop factor, then crop that A7r shot to nearly equivalent A6000 FOV and then compare without considering the DR.

Anyway, sure this test could be useful for those who can't afford A7r, or for those who want a camera backup to their A7 or A7r, i want to see the result from A7 full frame to A6000 shot as long both are 24mp.

 

[philip_pj]

Once good post work is done, especially if it includes heavy cropping and recovery at both ends, most cues are gone and in a small jpeg it's anyone's guess.

And you are using the same sweet spot of the lens in both files. So: same lens 'crop area', but only 16Mp for the cropped a7r file against 24mp for the a6000. The a7r is a far superior camera but not when you reduce its file size so drastically. I thought it did well here.

The a6000 is very good indeed - about halfway between the a7r and the a77 (with SLT).

There are as many sharpening formulas out there as there are photographers ;-) They all think they do it the right way! FWIW, Adobe's starting point is a very safe 25/1.0/25/0, because 90% of all photos are of people - very few people limit detail to that low a figure of 10. Guy, you are only really doing the large edges. The landscape guys go crazy with ultra high Detail and Radius of 0.5 for greenery and distant objects but use quite a lot of masking for skies etc. It maybe works best to balance Amount and Detail against each other with an Alt key check of smooth areas, then add masking. Most start Amount at 40-60 and work from there - it's also very content dependent, and your preferences, and output needs.

FWIW, the technical info behind 'Detail' is that low Detail is USM but protected against halos; and high Detail is Deconvolution.

Finally, a lot is happening that we don't know about. Jeff Schewe of Adobe had this to say recently:

"Although the answer is indeed yes, these are default capture sharpening settings, it's actually a bit more complicated...

ACR/LR does do a level of normalized default sharpening and color noise reduction but these are not hard specific numbers, they are normalized for the camera and ISO settings...the engineers try to arrive at a useful starting point but that starting point will vary by camera model and sensor. By default there is no luminance noise reduction–even though a small amount of luminance noise reduction should prolly be applied."

Sony's sensors are getting better in leaps and bounds, and it's good Adobe leave that very nice lum noise alone! I only knock out a little, say 10 between ISO 400-1600, and 30-40 at ISO 6400. Thanks for posting.

 

[mjr]

Ok, it actually makes even less sense to me now, the A7r in crop mode is a 1.5 crop at 15mp and the A6000 is 1.5 crop at 24mp, the A6000 should be doing better in this case, as philip points out above, the A7r is actually doing well in this test.

I'm not sure what the point is.

Mat

 

[ken_vs_ryu]

An a7 and a nex body is the perfect travel one two punch.