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Sony A77II ordered

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'm on a roll here and let's talk about auto ISO . Frankly no one has this right yet from my experience. Every manufacture try's to protect you the shooter as in most cases it pushes the ISO higher to save you from low shutter speeds. It's why I never use it. In this case I have no doubts it would push me to ISO 3200. No doubt in my mind here. Now some cams you can control the limits of the high and low ISO but it will still no doubt about it push you to your limit in poorer light. Which many times is not what you want. Its a nice tool but again you need to know what it will do and I see complaints about this often. Even in good light it might push you to ISO 200 or above and your trying to shoot at 100. So care needs to be taken here. All OEMs are trying to protect you here as rule of thumb for them is not everybody is a expert shooter or should be.
 
M

mjr

Guest
Guy

Thanks for your thoughts, I understand that these sorts of shoots are bread and butter, it's about recording the event reliably and producing usable result for the client, whatever the lighting situation so understand why you went the way you did.

I'm less convinced by the af, I understand that depth of field at those distances makes the af lock on the chest less relevant, but at those distances I'd have just stopped down and got everything in focus and bumped ISO to compensate, if I was shooting wide open with a 200 f2 for example then I would think there would be a need for the focus to be on the face. Don't get me wrong, I think the ability to track is fantastic, I just don't see how the camera is ever going to know exactly what it is you are prioritising when there are lots of moving characters, it must surely be luck if it picks the thing you want to track. I also am not entirely convinced that the focal point for an image is ever really going to be at the extremes of the frame on purpose.

To be honest i'm a bit of a luddite anyway, I use single point if I'm using af and just lock and recompose, mostly though I'm using mf and find it easier to control, sports and fast moving stuff I have little experience with so it's good to hear the views of others to try and understand what it's all about.

I understand your auto ISO point, I like how you can set minimum shutter speed, maximum ISO and it will only increase ISO once you have met the minimum speed, works for me. On a monopod I can reliably get much lower speeds than the standard shutter speed/focal length calculation, I find that accurate for handheld but when it's on a monopod I can go a lot slower.

Anyway, it's all good, learning from the experiences of others is what life is about.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
This is all good stuff Guy.

I appreciate this sort of practical report verses some other more academic types because our paid shooting situations are very often quite similar: fast paced, moving from one lighting environment to another (often from poor to even poorer), static subjects that suddenly and unpredictably move, and copious amounts of images even if you carefully pick decisive moments, (a product of shooting 8 to 10 hours coverage with lots of different subjects).

While I am not in the market for the A77-II, I'm very interested in what it directionally means for future Sony SLTs ... namely any replacement for the FF A99 which is my current workhorse for PR, weddings, events and parties.

I've now determined that as long as I do this sort of work, I cannot exclusively rely on the A7 type camera and FE lens system ... a DSLR/SLT is a must ... in fact, other than available light stuff with a few A mount lenses, I see the A7 stuff as mere back-up to some sort of Sony SLT until the A99 replacement gets here and the A99 becomes the back-up to it ... and the A7R then goes into limbo or much reduced use.

I did a Bat Mitzvah a few weeks ago, and used the A99 and Sony 500 mirror which is AF (the ceremony was a football field away) ... and between the Monopod and IBIS you will not believe what shutter speeds I was able to use @ f/8 while staying ISO 1600. I was even amazed.

Keep the comments and pics coming Guy (good and bad) ... all enlightening stuff IMO.

- Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy

Thanks for your thoughts, I understand that these sorts of shoots are bread and butter, it's about recording the event reliably and producing usable result for the client, whatever the lighting situation so understand why you went the way you did.

I'm less convinced by the af, I understand that depth of field at those distances makes the af lock on the chest less relevant, but at those distances I'd have just stopped down and got everything in focus and bumped ISO to compensate, if I was shooting wide open with a 200 f2 for example then I would think there would be a need for the focus to be on the face. Don't get me wrong, I think the ability to track is fantastic, I just don't see how the camera is ever going to know exactly what it is you are prioritising when there are lots of moving characters, it must surely be luck if it picks the thing you want to track. I also am not entirely convinced that the focal point for an image is ever really going to be at the extremes of the frame on purpose.

To be honest i'm a bit of a luddite anyway, I use single point if I'm using af and just lock and recompose, mostly though I'm using mf and find it easier to control, sports and fast moving stuff I have little experience with so it's good to hear the views of others to try and understand what it's all about.

I understand your auto ISO point, I like how you can set minimum shutter speed, maximum ISO and it will only increase ISO once you have met the minimum speed, works for me. On a monopod I can reliably get much lower speeds than the standard shutter speed/focal length calculation, I find that accurate for handheld but when it's on a monopod I can go a lot slower.

Anyway, it's all good, learning from the experiences of others is what life is about.
Sure I agree outside in decent light you can drop your aperture down to 5.6 still have good shutter speed and not fight high ISO situations where noise is not a problem. Plus with a monopod it gives you a nice stable base to work from, most sports shooting falls mostly in that area. Now you have several AF options here with the A77Iii and I did not get into that very much as I believe you have about 4 options. Single point like any cam than there is expand single point which is nice for faces as it locks on with a single point than expands the area about 9 AF points so if your doing a portrait it will follow the eye if the subject is moving some, think model here. Than there is AF zone which takes about 9 points and you get a joystick in all these AF modes that moves your points very swiftly around the frame. Than of course you get options of single or continuous . The one we are talking about in the video is AF continuous tracking in the wide area setting. That one you hit your single AF point wherever you want and as the subject moves it uses about 9 points to track that single point you locked onto. This is the newest AF we seen and very promising. But once again AF is AF it's not predictable thinking as the human behind the camera knowing where the subject is going. So basically its dumb to that and it will not always nail it in every frame but you can still get a good hit rate and with high shutters good apertures and reasonable ISO speeds that hit rate will be better. Let's not also forget good light helps immensely the phase and contrast detection systems. So you get a lot of options with AF here and more than I hit on. Need to read the specs carefully to figure out all the options.

Like Marc said the A7 series lacks this AF ability so if you need this than for now the A77II is a great option. I have no doubts this AF stuff here will be in future Sony cams. No doubt it will make it into a A99 full frame as well. Like usually we are playing the waiting game for that but for now at this price point it's damn good. That's all we can ask for as they keep innovating and Sony looks determined to be the leader in innovating . Gotta love that as a end user
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Better example here and mostly what I shot all day people up in the front arms waving and any type of movement you can think of.

 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Lets talk about noise a little here and as you keep trying to knock it down tun it keeps losing detail. Now given the output one must decide where is the balance in the file to keep your detail and?or knock out some of the noise. Personally as i said this is a ISO 1600 camera but Im also pretty critical about the look of the file and noise content. i don't like noise simply put. But I could take this a little further and again when dealing with High ISO you hope that you don't have to get big with it.

this one is very minimal like the ones above.




Now this one I went a little more and sure the noise does decrease and maybe the break point but I am still losing detail. Which honestly drives me nuts. But again this is a comfort level as to what you like

 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Noise wise it looks better detail wise as you can see his sideburns and facial hair is losing detail. The question becomes what is acceptable and what is not. So for my sake I am branding this a ISO 1600 cam and in a emergency ISO 2500 as long as I don't need to get large with it.

I should point out again this is ISO 2500 shot at 1/160 at 2.2 and i used this image on purpose it eliminates anything I did and the subject in this case is still plus he has facial hair in which we can identify the detail well. Now some folks will think this is perfect and some will not. Its a matter of taste just like sharpness levels are.


Anyway i think dissecting these things are important as you learn when you go back out what to expect exactly when you come back in and start working your images you just know what works and what does not.

Now in this image as Mat pointed out I sure could have dropped the ISO which would drop the shutter speed and i still would have got a acceptable image. I agree but here is the problem your out shooting in rapid speed you just don't have that chance to be playing with menu items all day long. Here is where Auto ISO would be very useful if it worked properly or maybe better said to your liking and thinking but unfortunately as mentioned the OEMs play it safe and bump it up to the highest level to protect you. The issue is I don't need to protect myself. ROTFLMAO but they are not designing this stuff for experienced users in a large part but for more inexperienced folks that need more help. I totally get that and i also agree with there thinking but if we could control that better that would be helpful. Maybe one trick or workaround is to use your memory dials which the A77II has 3 memory slots and that would make those type of adjustments much quicker
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Guy I will say this level of noise doesn't bother me for web sizes and even in reasonably sized prints. I can say with certainty that Sony files sharpen up very well when it comes to printing - even when they appear to be a little noisy on screen. I've printed some out from a A77 (which I would say was a ISO 800-1250 for color or 1600-3200 for B&W camera at best spending on subject matter) out to 24x36 with no real issues from a natural viewing distance but I would say 16x24 is ideal for color prints and 18x27 for B&W. Regarding color for those who aren't use to Sony cameras - they generally aren't the high ISO machines the Nikon's are so if the cleanest high ISO is your #1 concern then go with a Nikon tuned Sony sensor.

Sony is more about realistic and sometimes even vibrant color reproduction. That's what they tune their sensors for in general. I've said it before but the A7 cameras are the closest CMOS sensor I've seen to a CCD like signature when it comes to color. I haven't prated any of my A7 or A7R images yet but I have no doubt that they will do just as well if not better than the A77 images I've printed.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree if i needed higher than ISO 1600 cam I would be looking at a D4 or similar or even the new A7s but more my intent on the A77II was something i don't get on the A7/A7r is the AF speed and tracking. This will do exactly what I need for PR work and more important and a big money income for me is the runway stuff that I do for my wife's company I need a 300mm effective and focus tracking to nail models going down the runway which typically is about ISO 1250 so investing in the 3rd body is a no brainer for me, As it does exactly what I need and the A6000 is a close second but no vertical grip makes it impossible to shoot 15 thousand images with my hand over the camera. I can't do that physically as my arthritis kicks in almost immediately and I can't move my hands. So i have to have a vertical grip on those gigs. Having the A glass makes this cam a bonus in my system. Is it perfect no its not but if you need AF on a cam this does have some real power to it.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Agreed. For all the gripes about Sony lenses be it A, E, or FE mount the good glass tends to be great. I owned the 70-200/2.8 G and the 16-50/2.8 in A-mount. Both were really good. The 16-50 had distortion on the wide end but the Lightroom profile cleaned it up well. I tried the Zeiss 85 and 135 and yes both are really good. I'm hoping the FE rumors of a 85/135 Zeiss are true and f/1.8 or f/2 would be fine by me as long as they perform as well as the 55FE.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I had the Sony brand one so I can't comment on Vello. I've had too much bad luck early on with non-OEM products so I always buy OEM products.
 

ecsh

New member
Same here, but the Sony grip for my A77 is great. No problems at all. I wonder if the A77 grip will fit the II version?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'll get a used one from Amazon for 179 dollars. I use them on the big shoots only anyway. Shooting normal types of jobs I do okay
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Guy have you tried out the Sigma Art 18-35/1.8 yet on the A77II? I don't know if you're a wide shooter but it seems pretty tempting for those with APS-C bodies.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No just saw that it was in stock too at B&H. I have the 16-50 2.8 but heck I would not mind having that Sigma instead. I could use it on the A6000 as well with the adapter. If I had a spare 800 I would just buy it now than sell the 16-50. I could use it in a couple weeks in NY doing the show.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I did order a sony vertical grip the other day. So I'm all set but would not mind switching the zooms out.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Syrah I was thinking of getting the A77II and that lens maybe for myself... I mean my girlfriend for her birthday. Well either that or the A6000.
 
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