You have been around GetDPI long enough to know that tashley is not a troll.
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DXO D810
- Thread starter tashley
- Start date
How in the heck did you come up with that, by which figment of vivid imagination?
Landscapelover
Senior Subscriber Member
Tim,
Is the 810 good enough to upgrade the 800E? I've still found the D800E is more than enough to make good pictures.
The A7R has their own advantages and the little improvement of the 810 should not be enough reason to sell it. Am I right?
Certainly, this topic is not a troll and I've found it's very interesting especially coming from Tim.
Pramote
Is the 810 good enough to upgrade the 800E? I've still found the D800E is more than enough to make good pictures.
The A7R has their own advantages and the little improvement of the 810 should not be enough reason to sell it. Am I right?
Certainly, this topic is not a troll and I've found it's very interesting especially coming from Tim.
Pramote
tashley
Subscriber Member
Thanks for the 'he isn't trolling' comments people. Clearly I'm not - and I have no 'status' here other than as a long term participant. I'm not a moderator, which is why I invited anyone who is to remove this if they saw fit.
Moving on. Pramote, honestly, there are few real reasons to move to a D810. Focus is better, in both accuracy, no 'left side' problem and the addition of the Group mode, which I have yet to try but people do say it is great. Shutter is a lot nicer and there is less of a shutter shock problem, plus the EFC mode in LV totally gets rid of the issue. People also commonly report no need for AFFT, which is my experience also but I don't have many AF lenses... The camera overall feels nicer.. And the ISO 64 files are even cleaner though there may be a slight penalty at higher ISO; I haven't done a side by side because I have no D800 now. The new LV is really really good and makes a big difference.
Overall it's likely to be a usability trade, not an IQ one, but those ISO 64 files sure are clean and the low ISO DR seems hard to exceed.. my best indication is that now, if I am close to home or in the studio I use the D810 rather than the A7r, especially with longer lenses and if I have a lens that fits the Nikon which is at least as good as that I would use on the Sony, but for anything under 70mm and assuming the light is reasonably good, I will use the Sony if I am straying further from base because it is still a nicer package to carry and the differences are for many use cases not relevant.
I never loved my D800e. I said so many times. It was objectively a very very fine camera but I never loved it. This one somehow feels different and I am really enjoying it. Hard to pin down why, but others have said the same... however, when Sony responds with an AXX variant that has a better shutter and better tracking focus I will probably finally consolidate in that system for good. Those are the last pieces missing from the Sony lineup that matter to me and I prefer the breadth of lens options in Sony.
ps Pramote - for sure the D800 is generally more than enough to make good pictures, especially in the hands of someone such as yourself, but the D810 broadens the 'shooting envelope' in all but stupidly high ISO situations and will therefor mean, everything being equal, more opportunities for good pictures in the hands of an experienced user.
Moving on. Pramote, honestly, there are few real reasons to move to a D810. Focus is better, in both accuracy, no 'left side' problem and the addition of the Group mode, which I have yet to try but people do say it is great. Shutter is a lot nicer and there is less of a shutter shock problem, plus the EFC mode in LV totally gets rid of the issue. People also commonly report no need for AFFT, which is my experience also but I don't have many AF lenses... The camera overall feels nicer.. And the ISO 64 files are even cleaner though there may be a slight penalty at higher ISO; I haven't done a side by side because I have no D800 now. The new LV is really really good and makes a big difference.
Overall it's likely to be a usability trade, not an IQ one, but those ISO 64 files sure are clean and the low ISO DR seems hard to exceed.. my best indication is that now, if I am close to home or in the studio I use the D810 rather than the A7r, especially with longer lenses and if I have a lens that fits the Nikon which is at least as good as that I would use on the Sony, but for anything under 70mm and assuming the light is reasonably good, I will use the Sony if I am straying further from base because it is still a nicer package to carry and the differences are for many use cases not relevant.
I never loved my D800e. I said so many times. It was objectively a very very fine camera but I never loved it. This one somehow feels different and I am really enjoying it. Hard to pin down why, but others have said the same... however, when Sony responds with an AXX variant that has a better shutter and better tracking focus I will probably finally consolidate in that system for good. Those are the last pieces missing from the Sony lineup that matter to me and I prefer the breadth of lens options in Sony.
ps Pramote - for sure the D800 is generally more than enough to make good pictures, especially in the hands of someone such as yourself, but the D810 broadens the 'shooting envelope' in all but stupidly high ISO situations and will therefor mean, everything being equal, more opportunities for good pictures in the hands of an experienced user.
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From what I am reading, it sounds like Nikon has sorted out some of the 'utility' issues with the D800, and I wonder if Canon show a reverse with the 5d IV: the utility of the 5D III is already fabulous, only now they could do with a better sensor with more DR. Perhaps both manufacturers will end up in about the same place, after all this!
As for another half stop of DR with the D810, all that mean in real world is half a stop more push in the shadows, if required. I think we are very much in the realm of vastly diminishing returns here, especially when one considers what one cannot shoot perfectly well with the 14+ stops of the D800 and A7R. It has to be a scene that exceeds the DR of the sensor AND cannot be shot with multiple exposures. It has to be a tiny fraction of scenes.
To me, the new D810 looks like a D800 with the niggles ironed out, so that a person can enjoy a more seamless shooting experience and bond better with the tool, rather than fight the thing. The value of the experience needs no technical validation, although the small improvements are surely welcome.
As for another half stop of DR with the D810, all that mean in real world is half a stop more push in the shadows, if required. I think we are very much in the realm of vastly diminishing returns here, especially when one considers what one cannot shoot perfectly well with the 14+ stops of the D800 and A7R. It has to be a scene that exceeds the DR of the sensor AND cannot be shot with multiple exposures. It has to be a tiny fraction of scenes.
To me, the new D810 looks like a D800 with the niggles ironed out, so that a person can enjoy a more seamless shooting experience and bond better with the tool, rather than fight the thing. The value of the experience needs no technical validation, although the small improvements are surely welcome.
I don't think the last couples of answers do cover all the D810 uses.
Such high level sensor needs the best body and lenses to express its potential.
Use a D800E & a D810 on tripod with MLU, Live View and a very best manual focus lens and the d810 will cumulate its new benefits: better focus thanks to better live view, less vibrations thanks to better shutter, better color depth , DR and less noise thanks to better sensor and iso 64.
Quite sure that, let's say on 10 high res. landscape pictures taken with both systems, the D810 will show its clear advantage.
Of course with less perfect lenses or shooting conditions, differences could be reduced to usability improvements only.
Such high level sensor needs the best body and lenses to express its potential.
Use a D800E & a D810 on tripod with MLU, Live View and a very best manual focus lens and the d810 will cumulate its new benefits: better focus thanks to better live view, less vibrations thanks to better shutter, better color depth , DR and less noise thanks to better sensor and iso 64.
Quite sure that, let's say on 10 high res. landscape pictures taken with both systems, the D810 will show its clear advantage.
Of course with less perfect lenses or shooting conditions, differences could be reduced to usability improvements only.
With the absolute best lenses, best technique, perfect conversion and processing on the same image taken under identical conditions, you *might* be able to detect some slight advantages to the D810 sensor at 100% or 200% pixel view on a calibrated imaging monitor over the A7r or D800E. But I'd be *really* (really, really) surprised if anybody could see any difference in the best 24in x 36in (58cm x 88cm) prints from each.
Really
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
This is splitting hairs like the 610 which was to fix the D600 issues. Im afraid the D810 is essentially the same concept. I'm not buying this as a new thing but a tweaked one. Which does add to its value but I would be hard pressed to say its any better IQ wise than its sibling. More likelihood a nice marketing plan.
jonoslack
Active member
Hmmm, Jack, Guy, I'm sure you're right that the IQ differences will be hard to establish, but these usability issues sound very worthwhile.
Ironically, I was teetering on the brink of a D800e, now they can be had so much cheaper, but this makes me hesitate. I'm afraid I may be doomed to 24mp for ever
Jono,
I have zero doubt that usability has been improved, and that is a good enough reason to purchase one if you want those features.
My point is we're at such a high level of performance already, any IQ "improvements" are now pretty tiny and as such, of questionable real value. Getting OT but it is my belief: When the 50+MP DSLR finally gets introduced, my guess is there will be maybe one or two lenses currently available that can outresolve that sensor, so what is really gained from it? We now have nearly 14-stops of DR -- more will be useful in a very tiny percentage of situations that I can think of. As an example, how many of us are already adding black and white to make our images look right in print or onscreen?
I guess I'm just tired of the MP race wars and pixel peeping extraordinaire -- my desire is to create art and share it through my images. On that vein, I'm still making some really nice images with my iPhone 4. Are technically perfect? Heck no! But are they visually pleasing? Yepindeed, at least to me
I have zero doubt that usability has been improved, and that is a good enough reason to purchase one if you want those features.
My point is we're at such a high level of performance already, any IQ "improvements" are now pretty tiny and as such, of questionable real value. Getting OT but it is my belief: When the 50+MP DSLR finally gets introduced, my guess is there will be maybe one or two lenses currently available that can outresolve that sensor, so what is really gained from it? We now have nearly 14-stops of DR -- more will be useful in a very tiny percentage of situations that I can think of. As an example, how many of us are already adding black and white to make our images look right in print or onscreen?
I guess I'm just tired of the MP race wars and pixel peeping extraordinaire -- my desire is to create art and share it through my images. On that vein, I'm still making some really nice images with my iPhone 4. Are technically perfect? Heck no! But are they visually pleasing? Yepindeed, at least to me
tashley
Subscriber Member
I agree Jack: it's the lenses. Honestly, now I have the D810 I am struggling to get glass that is both good and (to me) useful. For 70-200 zoom use it's the best game in town but in the past week I've tested the Sigma Art 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 and they are both useful on centre but not capable of edges and corners that remotely satisfy - unlike the Sony Zeiss 34-70 F4, which beats them both comfortably and also IMHO beats the Nikon 24-70 F2.8 overall because of its reasonable performance at 24mm (where the Nikkor is weak) and stellar performance at 50mm, with no focal length at which it is a dud.
So though I intended to use the D810 mainly for serious work with primes, I am stuck with the fact that short of the Otus, the FE55 is the best 50-ish prime on these sensors - and even if it does get slightly edged by the Sigma ART, I already have the 55. Then I have the FE 35, which is not stellar but is very good, and I can't face going through another several Sigma ART 35s to get a good one. So the D810 is staying, for longer lens use and with my Zeiss 21 and Samyang 14 and beloved 50 Cron, but otherwise, for the lenses I would want to use, the shortlist is depressingly.... short!
So though I intended to use the D810 mainly for serious work with primes, I am stuck with the fact that short of the Otus, the FE55 is the best 50-ish prime on these sensors - and even if it does get slightly edged by the Sigma ART, I already have the 55. Then I have the FE 35, which is not stellar but is very good, and I can't face going through another several Sigma ART 35s to get a good one. So the D810 is staying, for longer lens use and with my Zeiss 21 and Samyang 14 and beloved 50 Cron, but otherwise, for the lenses I would want to use, the shortlist is depressingly.... short!
Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
Yes, Tim, the list is short - which is why I'm not giving up on MFDB despite weight, expense and lack of features we take for granted with DSLRs and mirrorless cameras.
Not to say I don't love the a7r/FE 55 combo!
Bill
My point is that there is both usability and quality upgrades with the D810 apparently.With the absolute best lenses, best technique, perfect conversion and processing on the same image taken under identical conditions, you *might* be able to detect some slight advantages to the D810 sensor at 100% or 200% pixel view on a calibrated imaging monitor over the A7r or D800E. But I'd be *really* (really, really) surprised if anybody could see any difference in the best 24in x 36in (58cm x 88cm) prints from each.
Really
The best manual lenses are surely needed for the quality improvements to show up and this will be supported by a better technical usability (live view, shutter).
All together there is good chances the D810 pictures will be more technically optimal: depth of field perfectly placed thanks to better LV, less vibration and iso 64 for a touch of extra IQ.
jonoslack
Active member
Ah, you're preaching to the (long since) converted, although using an iPhone 4 as an alternative to the D810 seems a little 'alternative'!Jono,
I have zero doubt that usability has been improved, and that is a good enough reason to purchase one if you want those features.
My point is we're at such a high level of performance already, any IQ "improvements" are now pretty tiny and as such, of questionable real value. Getting OT but it is my belief: When the 50+MP DSLR finally gets introduced, my guess is there will be maybe one or two lenses currently available that can outresolve that sensor, so what is really gained from it? We now have nearly 14-stops of DR -- more will be useful in a very tiny percentage of situations that I can think of. As an example, how many of us are already adding black and white to make our images look right in print or onscreen?
I guess I'm just tired of the MP race wars and pixel peeping extraordinaire -- my desire is to create art and share it through my images. On that vein, I'm still making some really nice images with my iPhone 4. Are technically perfect? Heck no! But are they visually pleasing? Yepindeed, at least to me
In the final analysis it's why I never did jump for MF, and why I never got a D800 and didn't keep the A7r: because they all had disadvantages which more than outweighed their advantages (whether weight or shutter slap or lens choice to take advantage or whatever). I still like the M because it doesn't get in my way and there are a number of small and excellent lenses. It's not perfect, but it's a set of compromises which suits me.
I'm a gear whore like the best of us, but I prefer taking pictures to testing lenses
I also very much agree with you about DR, 14 stops is great, but I almost always want both black and white in my images!
Roll on the Sony A9 I say, with 36mp and a silent shutter. THEN my snoozin' FE lenses will be hoicked out of the cupboard!
You answered your own question -- get the Art 50 and no reason not to keep your FE55 too! This way, you can have the killer 50 with you when you're out with your D810 and not wanting to schlep an entire extra system. (PS: You can afford it! :ROTFL
Useful is another interesting topic for me. 6 years ago, useful to me meant perfect sharpness from corner to corner at f5.6 or 8, very little vignetting falloff and flat field performance. Now I realize I've very seldom made an outstanding image where the extreme corners mattered in the final image at all; and then some vignetting and even curvature of field can add an interesting dynamic. So now in glass I go for look, period. And yes, this includes what I call creamy bokeh which I know more than a few of you detest the discussions of! Anyway, my stable of lenses has morphed over the last few years due to this realization, and I am now at a point where I can do pretty much everything I want to do with my existing and much smaller kit. Bodies are about usability, but also look. And yes, total resolution. But not so much emphasis on pixel level performance, total DR (current cams all have enough) or even high ISO performance -- HERESY ALERT! -- I actually LIKE a little noise in an image sometimes :wtf:
tashley
Subscriber Member
Heretic! Burn him! :ROTFL:
Seriously, I totally agree about corners and even about field curvature but unless I make a specific creative choice to the contrary, I detest soft edges and I particularly detest lenses that focus closer on one side than on the other. Just returned by second mid range zoom in two days for that reason...
Seriously, I totally agree about corners and even about field curvature but unless I make a specific creative choice to the contrary, I detest soft edges and I particularly detest lenses that focus closer on one side than on the other. Just returned by second mid range zoom in two days for that reason...
ThomasZ
Member
Not long ago I was pixel-obsessed like the most of us. Until I had a real eye-opener: I was on vacation with the family and I did not took one of my two 36mp monsters with me, instead I grabbed the Fuji XE-2 with the kit lens and the 10-24, a really amazing small package. I did not really expect to have some great photographic opportunities, but the opposite was the case and I had to use what I had with me. Best of all is the tripod story. I left my mighty Gitzo Carbon tripod with the Arca Swiss head at home because I did not had enough luggage space (I have a wife with a lot of shoes!). When I realized that I may need one, I jumped into the only spanish photo shop and bought a rattly no-name tripod for 59€. Worked flawless. And guess what - I brought great results home, for example this one: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/589618-post3589.html
I printed it at 60x90cm and it looked great.
But of course I will buy the next high-end A7 camera at the day it comes out. GAS is simply incurable
I printed it at 60x90cm and it looked great.
But of course I will buy the next high-end A7 camera at the day it comes out. GAS is simply incurable
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
I have to say I'm loving the look of my older lenses towards this goal, the A7r with choice legacy lenses costing peanuts is a great way to kick back, relax and think about the result not the way you got there. Been redoing my website, lot of images I'm really happy with. 8 years of work. I wonder if anyone could tell which lens or camera or indeed how many megapixels. Heck half the time I don't remember myself. I used whatever lens I had kicking around from my wedding photography business at the time or could borrow from a friend.