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DXO D810

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
I've found that using the sensor to 'oversample' a lens does lead to wonderful tonality and transitions which again cannot be seen to the same extent on a smaller resolutioned sensor. As such perhaps we may not be able to see 56 megapixels of resolution but we may see more than 36, a given in the center of most good lenses, and the tonality, transitions, etc will only get better.

But I'm no scientist, just seeing what I've seen going from 12 to 22 to 36 megapixels with a specific lens.
 

Arne Hvaring

Well-known member
Scaling up to full frame the 24mpx sensor of NEX 7 or a6000 we get 56mpx. There are a number of lenses that out resolve the NEX sensor and they will of course out resolve the 56mpx full frame as well, at least in the central part of the image. Is this increase in resolution compared to a 36mpx sensor really worthless if it doesn´t extend to the very corners?
We already have lenses that will show very good corner performance, like your new 50mm Sigma, the Otus, Zeiss 135mm Apo, probably the 100mm Makro etc., and more are coming.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I just buy the best glass I can and get what I can squeeze out of it. The Sigma Art series are wonderful at it as is a lot of Zeiss designed glass. Right now I'm very happy with the lenses I have but it's always going to be a balance of IQ, size, weight and costs as well. This regardless of MPX. I like having a lot but I also love having the A6000 little cam. Damn thing is very impressive and if I need DOF its a nice choice regardless it being APS and 24 mpx.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I think it's interesting that many of us on this very thread have purchased 24MP cams for specific reasons AFTER already owning 36MP cams. I think we all agree that mp count is not the end all.

Ben, I agree that an excess of pixels adds to tonal smoothness in a final file, and I like that. But then so does a 1.6 pixel Gaussian blur added on a luminosity blend layer after the fact. Not saying the latter is better, just that it is available now...
 

Shashin

Well-known member
In terms of display image, a lens that renders a fine image on one camera will render an equally fine image on another higher-resolution one regardless if the 100% view looks "worse." You are simply getting higher frequency detail on the higher resolution camera, but the lens is not changing.

Judging an image solely at 100% has pit falls.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think it's interesting that many of us on this very thread have purchased 24MP cams for specific reasons AFTER already owning 36MP cams. I think we all agree that mp count is not the end all.

Ben, I agree that an excess of pixels adds to tonal smoothness in a final file, and I like that. But then so does a 1.6 pixel Gaussian blur added on a luminosity blend layer after the fact. Not saying the latter is better, just that it is available now...
I actually have 2 APS 24mpx that are my workhorses on certain gigs. For those type of gigs even 12mpx would be fine. It's not always about MPX but usability. My A77II high speed AF continuous focus is essential on some gigs that no 36mpx cam can match. Its WHY I have 3 cams, too me they are as disposable as cars. Use them and than sell them off
 

Arne Hvaring

Well-known member
I actually have 2 APS 24mpx that are my workhorses on certain gigs. For those type of gigs even 12mpx would be fine. It's not always about MPX but usability. My A77II high speed AF continuous focus is essential on some gigs that no 36mpx cam can match. Its WHY I have 3 cams, too me they are as disposable as cars. Use them and than sell them off
Exactly. Lately I have done a lot of my photography with m43. I could have used a 36mpx camera, but since I know 16mpx will be sufficient, the other usability advantages of the format are deciding.
This will of course not keep me from acquiring, a 56mpx camera once they are available, as I guess will be the case for many here.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I've found that using the sensor to 'oversample' a lens does lead to wonderful tonality and transitions which again cannot be seen to the same extent on a smaller resolutioned sensor. As such perhaps we may not be able to see 56 megapixels of resolution but we may see more than 36, a given in the center of most good lenses, and the tonality, transitions, etc will only get better.

But I'm no scientist, just seeing what I've seen going from 12 to 22 to 36 megapixels with a specific lens.
I absolutely agree and could not have put it better. Plus, if you're cropping to the sweet zone, you might get some of those extra pixels. My rule is always always capture as many pixels as I can as long as doing so doesn't compromise what I'm doing. I can pick and choose later.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful comment. It's very useful.
The ISO 64 is very attractive for landscape photography. Is it that good? Do you have files comparing between the ISO 64 and higher ISO? How is it compared to a file from medium-format digital (SLR not tech cam).
Me too! I've never liked the D800E. It looks like there are some good reasons to upgrade to the 810.

Pramote
Pramote, it's so hard to say because we all care about different aspects of the image. For me ISO 64 is not going to make any difference to anyone BUT me, if you see what I mean: getting the image is the key thing and the D800 does that extremely well already - the fact that there will be prints and crops and lighting situations where the extra quality is visible to me, will probably rarely matter to anyone else. But I do value it because I think the quality of 'lifted shadow' noise is less digital than on an A7R and less obvious. Whether this shows much in a print is arguable and in any event quite subtle.

I rarely use higher ISO and don't have a D800 to do comparisons with so this is all from memory or from comparisons with the A7R, but I have posted some ISO 64 NEF files for you here so you can play with the shadows and also so you can see the extremely smooth tonality. They are shot with the 24-70 Nikkor, which is pretty damn good for a zoom but has little poetry in its soul: the tonality benefits are more evident with more subtle lenses. Talking of lenses, as the rest of this thread has made clear, lenses are the real constraining factor in many situations these days...

That link will become active soon, when the files are uploaded - they are quite large and are taking some time!

The main benefits of the D810 over the 800/E are usability. It is, now, a loveable camera because it doesn't get in your way. It is quicker, quieter, more subtle and refined and doesn't piss you off with constant small niggles.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The better live view would have me traded up from the D800e when I had that system but instead I went Sony with better live view, focus peaking and such. So that was important to me. ISO 64 not sure it buys any IQ. 32 would have been better to slow the shutter down for creative stuff.
 

jfzander

New member
Right. And there will be a new A7 or A9 with better sensor, better compression, better live view, better AF, EFC etc. etc. and then things will look different again. Especially at a difference of .7 stops.

Cheers

Jan
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I think it is good info, regardless of the thread.

Two great things with the D810 is electronic first curtain (EFC) on shutter and the other the much improved live view.

Jim Kasson is checking out the D810 now, and he indicates that the EFC helps sharpness with longer lenses in the 1-1/125s range: EFCS results with Nikon 70-200 on the D810 | The Last Word

The gain in sharpness from the EFC at 1/64s on the 70-100/2.8 is like going from 21MP to 36MP. It may not be very visible, but it is there.

Best regards
Erik

Nikon D810 sensor review: New DxOMark leader - DxOMark

sorry for the cross post but if the mods think it irrelevant, please delete...
 

algrove

Well-known member
Hmmm, Jack, Guy, I'm sure you're right that the IQ differences will be hard to establish, but these usability issues sound very worthwhile.

Ironically, I was teetering on the brink of a D800e, now they can be had so much cheaper, but this makes me hesitate. I'm afraid I may be doomed to 24mp for ever :(
Yes, until a 48MP whatever suits your fancy.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Right. And there will be a new A7 or A9 with better sensor, better compression, better live view, better AF, EFC etc. etc. and then things will look different again. Especially at a difference of .7 stops.

Cheers

Jan
The A7r I want to upgrade IF IT HAS the EFC and better AF. That alone i would trade up for 36mpx is good but given I have 2 24mpx workhorses i would like a monster in one with a 50 Mpx sensor. So yes more MPX is valid for some of us but like my case i have the other 2 cams also and that makes it a better purchase for me. Bottom line the A7r just needs more speed in most areas. I would also like to see the compressing of raws eliminated. Im not here to save drive space. They just need to think more Pro level as these Sonys are steadily getting into our hands they just need to think photographer first, engineer second. Im not complaining though. Lets face it I just shot 15k images on a 1200 dollar body, if thats not in the Pro leagues I don't know what is and yet the A77II has it all down almost perfectly. Its very fast in every regard. The A series especially the A7r could take a lesson from it. What Nikon needs is the Df sensor in a rocket ship form for PR guys that does not cost 6k in a D4s
 

philip_pj

New member
Any 'good' lens = any lens with good performance across the frame - will do just fine with 36Mp sensors in full frame, and for example the FE55 shows virtually the same performance on the 54Mp equivalent NEX7 as it does on the a7r.

Sony Lens: Primes - Sony FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* SEL55F18Z (Tested) - SLRgear.com! (click blur charts to observe at f5.6-f8 where you can see the crop area in the a7r image = NEX7 chart)

The 'across-the-full frame' need is the reason (I believe) we are seeing at the same time - give or take a year - not one or two, but four fabulous 50-55mm lenses with cross-frame excellence, from Sigma, Sony, Zeiss and Leica. I talk too much about this stuff so will simply provide a few quotes:

DxO:

'Once the Nikon D800 was tested in the labs, it became clear that *with a whole range of lenses*, the Nikon D800 was out-performing every other camera tested..' (in pre a7r days anyway)

Zeiss - (and you can plug in 36Mp and other Mp counts and get the same trend - as it is optical science):

"We used the 12 MP camera with the Macro-Planar 2/100 ZF at aperture stops 8
versus 22, a combination which certainly yields optimal performance and on the
other hand a setting with diffraction-limited reduced resolution. These two cases will then be compared to the large apertures, the optimal aperture stop 8 and aperture stop 22 on the 85 lens on the 24MP camera.

This comparison turns out clearly in favor of the 24 MP camera with all aperture
stops...combining any optical performance with a camera with a higher resolution limit and a low-pass filter designed to match improves the transfer function.

It is particularly interesting to compare the two curves for aperture stop 22 where the optical resolution of both cameras is limited solely by diffraction and is approx. 75 lp/mm, i.e. clearly less than the resolution limit of the 24 MP sensor. *The difference in resolution between the cameras is maintained.*

1. Doubling the number of pixels improves the transfer function even if the sensor resolution is better than the resolution of the lens.
2. The curve for the poor lens on the 24 MP sensor is almost as good as the
curve of the good lens with the 12 MP sensor.

Thus concerns that today's good lenses may in general not be able to cope with a
24 MP sensor appear somewhat exaggerated. Of course the full potential of the huge data files can only be used with a very good lens. But we can expect some improvement of image quality not only for the optimal aperture stops but also outside
of the range of best performance..."

Concerning the differences between 12 and 24 MP you will have noticed that they are sometimes surprisingly small. But this is also a question of the motif, not all of them reveal the differences of the high spatial frequency transfer. But they exist: extremely fine line and dot patterns are the nightmare of all digital cameras."

How to read MTF curves? Part II, by H. H. Nasse.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I agree with your points, the Hubert Nasse article is worth reading.

I see another advantage with smaller pixels, artefacts are reduced. Below are two images shot with 150 mm lenses at fixed distance. First is Hasselblad P45+ with (39 MP) 150/4 Sonnar, second is Sony Alpha 77 (APS-C 24 MP) using a 70-400/4-5.6 zoom at 150 mm. Both uprezzed 200% for better viewing.



The P45+ back has 6.8 my pixels while the Alpha 77 has 3.9 my pixels. The Sony Alpha 77 image was much larger (similar lens and shooting distance), but have been downsized to match P45+.

A full frame sensor with 3.9 my pixel pitch would have 54MP.

The full article is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/i...g-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good

Best regards
Erik

Any 'good' lens = any lens with good performance across the frame - will do just fine with 36Mp sensors in full frame, and for example the FE55 shows virtually the same performance on the 54Mp equivalent NEX7 as it does on the a7r.

Sony Lens: Primes - Sony FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* SEL55F18Z (Tested) - SLRgear.com! (click blur charts to observe at f5.6-f8 where you can see the crop area in the a7r image = NEX7 chart)

The 'across-the-full frame' need is the reason (I believe) we are seeing at the same time - give or take a year - not one or two, but four fabulous 50-55mm lenses with cross-frame excellence, from Sigma, Sony, Zeiss and Leica. I talk too much about this stuff so will simply provide a few quotes:

DxO:

'Once the Nikon D800 was tested in the labs, it became clear that *with a whole range of lenses*, the Nikon D800 was out-performing every other camera tested..' (in pre a7r days anyway)

Zeiss - (and you can plug in 36Mp and other Mp counts and get the same trend - as it is optical science):

"We used the 12 MP camera with the Macro-Planar 2/100 ZF at aperture stops 8
versus 22, a combination which certainly yields optimal performance and on the
other hand a setting with diffraction-limited reduced resolution. These two cases will then be compared to the large apertures, the optimal aperture stop 8 and aperture stop 22 on the 85 lens on the 24MP camera.

This comparison turns out clearly in favor of the 24 MP camera with all aperture
stops...combining any optical performance with a camera with a higher resolution limit and a low-pass filter designed to match improves the transfer function.

It is particularly interesting to compare the two curves for aperture stop 22 where the optical resolution of both cameras is limited solely by diffraction and is approx. 75 lp/mm, i.e. clearly less than the resolution limit of the 24 MP sensor. *The difference in resolution between the cameras is maintained.*

1. Doubling the number of pixels improves the transfer function even if the sensor resolution is better than the resolution of the lens.
2. The curve for the poor lens on the 24 MP sensor is almost as good as the
curve of the good lens with the 12 MP sensor.

Thus concerns that today's good lenses may in general not be able to cope with a
24 MP sensor appear somewhat exaggerated. Of course the full potential of the huge data files can only be used with a very good lens. But we can expect some improvement of image quality not only for the optimal aperture stops but also outside
of the range of best performance..."

Concerning the differences between 12 and 24 MP you will have noticed that they are sometimes surprisingly small. But this is also a question of the motif, not all of them reveal the differences of the high spatial frequency transfer. But they exist: extremely fine line and dot patterns are the nightmare of all digital cameras."

How to read MTF curves? Part II, by H. H. Nasse.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I've found that using the sensor to 'oversample' a lens does lead to wonderful tonality and transitions which again cannot be seen to the same extent on a smaller resolutioned sensor. As such perhaps we may not be able to see 56 megapixels of resolution but we may see more than 36, a given in the center of most good lenses, and the tonality, transitions, etc will only get better.

But I'm no scientist, just seeing what I've seen going from 12 to 22 to 36 megapixels with a specific lens.
I quite agree with this. Rather like people who can't hear frequencies above a certain range . . . but who can always tell if those frequencies are removed from music.

As long as I've got the processing power to deal with it I'd rather go for more 'sampling' every time - I think that the question of whether the lens can resolve the detail or not is rather a red herring.

But I'm not willing to sacrifice too much usability for it.

all the best
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
Tim,

The link has not yet active. However, your words are good enough as this is only subjective. Only few people I trust. To me, Printing is an ultimatum. Like you, I've always used the lowest ISOs the sensors allow to maximize the print quality. JPEG doesn't make a judgement. That's why I love the quality of the Phase One IQ 180 although I've currently had the IQ260 which is a compromise for long exposure. High ISO is not my priority. Dust and dawn don't need high ISO and I'm not in hurry.

Again, thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

Your friend,

Pramote





Pramote, it's so hard to say because we all care about different aspects of the image. For me ISO 64 is not going to make any difference to anyone BUT me, if you see what I mean: getting the image is the key thing and the D800 does that extremely well already - the fact that there will be prints and crops and lighting situations where the extra quality is visible to me, will probably rarely matter to anyone else. But I do value it because I think the quality of 'lifted shadow' noise is less digital than on an A7R and less obvious. Whether this shows much in a print is arguable and in any event quite subtle.

I rarely use higher ISO and don't have a D800 to do comparisons with so this is all from memory or from comparisons with the A7R, but I have posted some ISO 64 NEF files for you here so you can play with the shadows and also so you can see the extremely smooth tonality. They are shot with the 24-70 Nikkor, which is pretty damn good for a zoom but has little poetry in its soul: the tonality benefits are more evident with more subtle lenses. Talking of lenses, as the rest of this thread has made clear, lenses are the real constraining factor in many situations these days...

That link will become active soon, when the files are uploaded - they are quite large and are taking some time!

The main benefits of the D810 over the 800/E are usability. It is, now, a loveable camera because it doesn't get in your way. It is quicker, quieter, more subtle and refined and doesn't piss you off with constant small niggles.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Tim,

The link has not yet active. However, your words are good enough as this is only subjective. Only few people I trust. To me, Printing is an ultimatum. Like you, I've always used the lowest ISOs the sensors allow to maximize the print quality. JPEG doesn't make a judgement. That's why I love the quality of the Phase One IQ 180 although I've currently had the IQ260 which is a compromise for long exposure. High ISO is not my priority. Dust and dawn don't need high ISO and I'm not in hurry.

Again, thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

Your friend,

Pramote
You make a very good point here on landscape shooting which makes me go off topic slightly. Owning the A7r with shooting landscape at dusk and dawn which every workshop I have taught I have yet to get into any danger zone with shutter shake ever. Almost every shot is slower than 1/30 of a second which has no effect whatsoever. So as some have made this a very big issue it's also a red herring as I only ran into it once with a 135mm lens at 1/100.

Point being here it's not a issue if your never in that zone. Having the EFC to me is really just a comfort feature as it eliminate thinking about it and more so coming up with a workaround for it. So yes nice to have the EFC but it's not the end of the world either. Just sayin I do ignore this issue as I just find ways around it.

Okay back on topic. I'm glad to see the 810 have it though as for the industry it helps create a better standard going forward.
 
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