The most amazing thing happened today...

[jonoslack]

Jono thats my worry as well with a shrinking market going faster and faster at the diminishing returns waiting it out on Nikons/Canon bench could prove to be fatal as the user base keeps moving over to Sony not many would jump back. I maybe the exception here but I am a rare bird and my decisions are based on being a Pro which even that market is shrinking terribly. Point is no one will be left to jump on for Nikon/canon if they wait too long. Frankly the thing is NONE of us want to see anyone going into the dumpster. Thats bad for user base.

Quite agree - and let's face it, there is a huge base of pro sport and wedding snappers who are a conservative bunch . . . and Canon and Nikon are obviously relying on that conservative bunch to keep them in business until it's clear which way they should go. . . . . but as you say, once that lot have jumped ship they aren't going to jump back again quickly.

 

[biglouis]

Really go pick up a A77II. I can't smell, taste or see the difference in the slightest between a OVF and a EVF.

Glad to hear someone with Guy's authority state this. Since I owned a GH-2, several years back now, I've been saying we will look back on OVFs in 5-10 years time and think of them as quaint, in the way we think of film cameras now. OVFs and mirror boxes are a hang over from film and really have no purpose compared to modern EVFs and mirrorless cameras. Just my two pennoth.

LouisB

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

fotografz- "My other major irritation with them is how allergic they are to an intelligently organized and elegant interface. It's as if simplicity was against their religion. I cannot recall more confusion and discussions on how to do some basic operations, than with recent Sony cameras."

I couldn't disagree more. Having shot with just about everything including MFD, the Sony A7, imo is one of the more intuitive interfaces. Just press the Fn button and it's all there. Quick, easy.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Best feature on the A7 series is the Fn button. Worst feature where to format card and worse can't put it in the Fn section. Lol

 

[Lonnie Utah]

I couldn't disagree more. Having shot with just about everything including MFD, the Sony A7, imo is one of the more intuitive interfaces. Just press the Fn button and it's all there. Quick, easy.

I agree. My first time shooting the A7r, withing 5 mins, I felt completely "at home" on the camera. I was hunting for nothing, and changing shooting styles and modes at will.

Very intuitive.

 

[fotografz]

Best feature on the A7 series is the Fn button. Worst feature where to format card and worse can't put it in the Fn section. Lol

My point exactly. I had a friend call me and ask where the hell the format was. I had to go get the camera and scroll through to find it again … LOL!

FN button is pretty good except … press button, scroll through the tiny icons, press button, select the setting, press button.

The thing is bristling with little buttons.

A900: press one button, scroll to setting, shoot. A900: shoot, image is instantly on the LCD. With the A99, A7/A7R you have to … press yet another button.

A900, A99, A7/A7R … all different interfaces.

I guess we all have different definitions of "simple".

- Marc

 

[ptomsu]

Really go pick up a A77II. I can't smell, taste or see the difference in the slightest between a OVF and a EVF. The live view is just so much better as well and the AF on the A77II NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING can match. I just shot 15 thousand images with it and NO Nikon can touch it or Canon for that matter on AF lock and follow focus. Im not freaking kidding here, I could be half dead shooting the thing and it would still track and nail everything in sight. Remember its 1200 dollars not 6k too.

Guy,

I will have finally to check the A77II - I always compare to "previous" generation Fuji XT1 or Olympus EM1, which for sure do not reach the Nikon/Canon AF speed and accuracy.

Will try one of the next days.

Please understand that I really would love to see a mirror less (EVF) camera equaling or topping good OVF.

 

[Paul_Kerfoot]

My point exactly. I had a friend call me and ask where the hell the format was. I had to go get the camera and scroll through to find it again … LOL!

FN button is pretty good except … press button, scroll through the tiny icons, press button, select the setting, press button.

The thing is bristling with little buttons.

A900: press one button, scroll to setting, shoot. A900: shoot, image is instantly on the LCD. With the A99, A7/A7R you have to … press yet another button.

A900, A99, A7/A7R … all different interfaces.

I guess we all have different definitions of "simple".

- Marc

Exactly. If auto manufacturers designed their electronic user interfaces with the same indifference as camera manufacturers, (every car different from every other car) it wouldn't be safe to drive to the store for an ice cream run.

Paul

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

About viewfinders:
I have to agree with Guy. I've been using EVF's since the GH1, and although I hated it to start with, I don't even think about it anymore, even though the GH3 I'm using at the moment has been surpassed by several cameras. The advantages are simply too many to count.

But... when I lift a camera with an OVF to my eye, it does have something that is lacking from the EVF, and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Tech is tech and glass is glass. Unfortunately, modern DSLR cameras can't compete with the best viewfinders of film SLR bodies. I own a Contax RX. Unfortunately, it's dead, won't power on, but still I enjoy peering through that bright, panoramic window. I cannot point out what it is, but it does bring me closer to the subject than any other camera that I own. I suspect that is has something to do with the electronic overlays of modern OVF's, but then, I'm not an engineer. Maybe it's only nostalgia from my side, and most modern viewfinders are indeed very useable, but it is kind of a paradox if all the electronics of modern cameras takes away some of the photo experience.

If the traditional DSLR is going to survive, manufacturers may have to take a look in the back mirror sometimes and check what made the best cameras of yesteryear so great. I would love to see something like a Nikon Df II that pushed all the right buttons (or an A900 II for that matter, but that seems to be rather unrealistic, doesn't it?).

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Guy,

I will have finally to check the A77II - I always compare to "previous" generation Fuji XT1 or Olympus EM1, which for sure do not reach the Nikon/Canon AF speed and accuracy.

Will try one of the next days.

Please understand that I really would love to see a mirror less (EVF) camera equaling or topping good OVF.

I think its worth a look at not to buy but see what a updated FF A99II with a 36mpx would be like.

 

[fotografz]

Good post Jorgen. Very difficult to express the difference between a great OVF and the best of today's EVF, but you did somewhat do it. Excellent point regarding the difference between SLR and DSLR OVFs.

I think it has to do with expectations and experiences being set by decades of using OVFs. I forced myself to get an A99 at a time when I had two perfectly serviceable A900s (neither of which I still own). Despite off-putting experiences with a NEX-5, I figured I had better get with the program, or I would have to swap DSLR systems again. However, IF Sony had issued a A900 replacement with a OVF, that is what I'd be shooting right now. I know I'm not alone in that distinction.

Unlike Guy, I do still see a gap between EVFs and OVFs, but assume that will diminish in short order as (1) I become more assimilated with one and forget the other over time, and (2) the EVFs improve in areas where they still lag OVF.

The ability to see what you will get with EVF is a profound difference. As game changing as the instant LCD feedback of DSLRs was IMO. Unfortunately, it comes with baggage attached that is off-putting to many people because it introduces more camera oriented experiences between the photographer and the act of connecting with the subject matter.

The discretionary (look or don't look) "instant" LCD feedback of DSLRs has changed. Sony EVFs now requires us to either set the camera so the "still image" feedback is in the finder and on the LCD (in the VF being extremely disorienting in faster paced shooting situations) … or set it to maintain constant live view in the VF, and we have to push a button to get the not so instant feedback on the LCD. Personally, that was a major interruption to the rhythm of shooting for me, and still is. I do not know if that can change. I hope so.

The gain and smearing of EVF in low light is also in dire need of improvement IMHO.

The other thing I hate is having to go into a menu to turn setting effects off, or turn it back on when shifting from ambient shooting to strobe use with a radio transmitter, which I do a lot at weddings and events. (I know I can short cut this operation, but it is still a separate act that has to be done). This is a MAJOR irritation compared to an OVF system. More complexity when I should just be shooting.

We'll see where it all goes.

- Marc

 

[ptomsu]

I think its worth a look at not to buy but see what a updated FF A99II with a 36mpx would be like.

I tried it today.

I must admit the A77II seems indeed to have a really better and faster EVF than any other EVF I have seen so far. I could not test fast moving subjects, but overall I think the A77II is pointing the right direction where EVFs should be. At least for slow moving subjects I did not feel disconnected.

Will be interesting to see where the A99II is going. Rumors say it would have a 4MP EVF - not sure if this is technically feasible already.

 

[jlm]

as far as OVF, i can still remember the fascination of focusing in the gg with my first mf camera the Yashicamat 6 x6. absolutely addictive, and a completely different experience from peeping through that little hole in the OM-1 or Nikkormat. would go so far as to say it changed my entire outlook on photography.

today's generation is trying to use the LCD the same way you would use a viewfinder. if i were designing a camera with EVF, i'd fashion it like the waist-level gg of the 6x6, complete with flip down magnifier, give it an aperture ring and focus ring on the lens and a shutter dial

 

[ptomsu]

as far as OVF, i can still remember the fascination of focusing in the gg with my first mf camera the Yashicamat 6 x6. absolutely addictive, and a completely different experience from peeping through that little hole in the OM-1 or Nikkormat. would go so far as to say it changed my entire outlook on photography.

today's generation is trying to use the LCD the same way you would use a viewfinder. if i were designing a camera with EVF, i'd fashion it like the waist-level gg of the 6x6, complete with flip down magnifier, give it an aperture ring and focus ring on the lens and a shutter dial

I must say I am with you! Fuji kind of tries this concept (at least in parts) and this is what attracts many including me. But EVF wise, while one of the best on the market, it is still lacking behind OVF and as I could verify today meanwhile also the A77II.

I would not wonder if Sony and/or Fuji will become the new kids in town in the mirror less arena, even finally taking over the lead in the high end / pro camera segment in the next years. It needs nothing more than a fast EVF with automatic brightness adjustment like EM1, magnification like XT1 or A77II and all that combined with 4MP resolution. And yes of course a decent quiet shutter, preferably with electronic first curtain and up to 1/8000 speed. Pretty sure when this happens we will be there. Maybe the A99II will be already this beast?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I tend to think the A99ii with a 36mpx may just be the one. Will see what is announced but if they use all that's good in there lineup with a few extra tech advances than we maybe just come a little closer to the holy grail. But we need canon 17tse,24tselenses to go with it also. There are some great A mount lenses but more are needed but even so Sigma Art series helps a great deal.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

The other thing I hate is having to go into a menu to turn setting effects off, or turn it back on when shifting from ambient shooting to strobe use with a radio transmitter, which I do a lot at weddings and events. (I know I can short cut this operation, but it is still a separate act that has to be done). This is a MAJOR irritation compared to an OVF system. More complexity when I should just be shooting.

We'll see where it all goes.

- Marc

How do you shortcut it Marc? Even with it off, shooting in a normally lit room at f5.6 or 8 is a real pain, there is so much noise, colour noise, in the viewfinder that it's a real problem to find accurate manual focus. If I needed a studio camera for use with manual lenses I really could not recommend these cameras, focusing stopped down past f4 or so, IMO, is really difficult unless there is a LOT of light.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

if i were designing a camera with EVF, i'd fashion it like the waist-level gg of the 6x6, complete with flip down magnifier, give it an aperture ring and focus ring on the lens and a shutter dial

A Hy6 style camera with a very high resolution LCD/EVF... that would be something, wouldn't it...

 

[pikme]

iPhone has been the death of traditional type cameras. It's really that simple. Mostly all imaging is being done for web, social media type work. I have two kids right in the middle of that demographic a 24 and 17 year old. The phone is there lifeblood as is everyone in those age brackets. My daughter is having a baby in October and not even looking for a camera in the traditional way. Her iPhone will take 99 percent of her kids images. 5 years ago they would be asking me to get them a camera. Not in today's world.

That's just one example of a market that went iPhone as our generation went out and bought new cameras when we had had our kids. That seems to be no longer the case.

I think the iPhone has created another shift, along side the death of traditional cameras, and that is the shift from photo to video. My kids and their friends (late 20s, early 30s) are all getting married, buying houses, having babies, traveling, etc. The iPhone allows them to take short video clips (that are easily good enough and complete with sound) of the new baby's first steps or walking through the new house or city center at the exotic location. And these videos can now be emailed, messaged or shared via photo streams as easily as a click on the phone. Photos are stale to these young folks compared to videos. And no one cares a whit about technical issues. It is much more about the immediacy of the sharing.

 

[jlm]

not only that, but the plethora of easy imaging, texting and communicating has lowered the standard. couple that with the constant usage and new social acceptance of so-called multi-tasking and you get texting while driving, an obsession with immediate response and contact, conversations while texting and browsing and all of it done with partial concentration. half or more of the people in a restaurant now have their cell phones lit and texting while they eat and presumably talk to each other. strikes me as incredibly rude and out of touch with the moment

i recently imposed a cell phone ban on my personal dinner guests. put a bowl at the door like they did for guns in Dodge city. you'd be surprised at the resistance, and i'm talking about 50+ year olds

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Off topic but you guys hit the nail squarely on the head. I'm actually sickened by the use of these iPhones. My wife used to talk to me when I drive the car. Now she barely lifts her head up. Frankly this will create a lot of very screwed up people that do NOT know how to act when someone looks directly in there eyes and asks a important question. I'm going into being a chiropractor since that's where the money's at fixing necks from looking down all the time. I love This technology but in the end I'm afraid socially it's going to **** a lot of people up.