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The Sony A7II

Paratom

Well-known member
We just compared the high ISO between the A7s and the Nikon D700 (you may be too young to remember it). identical shots etc. there was some dispute, but basically the A7s had 1 stop advantage over the d700 so perhaps it was choosing s 12 MP sensor which was Sony's brainwave here.
What I find interesting is that everybody wants high ISO but state how bad/old the 5dIII sensor is....forgetting the 5dIII sensor has better DR than many Nikons and Sony-sensor-based cameras as soon as you get higher ISO400. And the AF is hard to beat.
The D700 I also remember of an extremly reliable camera, good high ISO, accurate AF etc.
So still in my view the main "Innovation" of the A7 series is ist smaller bodies and lenses for People who can live with f4.0 zooms (I can) and EVF.
 
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Vivek

Guest
What I find interesting is that everybody wants high ISO but state how bad/old the 5dIII sensor is....forgetting the 5dIII sensor has better DR than many Nikons and Sony-sensor-based cameras as soon as you get higher ISO400. And the AF is hard to beat.
The D700 I also remember of an extremly reliable camera, good high ISO, accurate AF etc.
So still in my view the main "Innovation" of the A7 series is ist smaller bodies and lenses for People who can live with f4.0 zooms (I can) and EVF.
Do not forget: Way too many buttons unlike the D700 or the 5DIII. :p
 

Paratom

Well-known member
No, Jono, it isn't that ordinary as you make it out to be. You can not stick a tiny CV 12 or 15 on the D700 (you can try Cosina's F mount versions but it will surely damage the mirror when it comes down after a shot) and get decent images. There is no shutter noise. The package is tiny. You can get wonderful high ISO HD videos. With an additional recorder you can get 4K video. The list goes on and on. :)
Well, but then you can put a 70-200/2.8VRII zoom on the D700 and shoot sports, and you can even see the subject in the moment between the first and the second Image - in real time ;) You can even see your f-stop, exp-time and WB on the top-Display, without having to turn the camera and activate the back Display.
I dont see how one is better than the other - just different Systems for different Needs -IMO.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Do not forget: Way too many buttons unlike the D700 or the 5DIII. :p
You are right..but for some reason ist much easier for me to understand and use those more "tradional" user Interfaces. The Buttons seem in the right places, and also most of them are marked. But yes, I could live with less Buttons.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
News update we have movement now


Starting form today the worldwide first A7II are in Stock at Amazon Japan. As next US readers will get their cameras from December 9. European readers will get them from December 17 and Canadian readers from December 18. Full rpeorder list and shipment info below. P.S.: There is also a new real world sample gallery posted on Dpreview.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Honestly one of the very very few times i am actually excited to get a new camera. Now that spans about 40 years. LOL
 
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Vivek

Guest
You are right..but for some reason ist much easier for me to understand and use those more "tradional" user Interfaces. The Buttons seem in the right places, and also most of them are marked. But yes, I could live with less Buttons.
You give the impression that you spend more time complaining about a Sony cam than actually use it.

The buttons, layouts and operational details are listed in the specifications. I read them before buying one. ;)
 

Paratom

Well-known member
You give the impression that you spend more time complaining about a Sony cam than actually use it.

The buttons, layouts and operational details are listed in the specifications. I read them before buying one. ;)
If I didnt like it overall than I wouldnt own the A7s. I still dont have to find everything super duper and so much better than cameras from other brands, do I?
 

Annna T

Active member
Looking at my own number of cameras, I just realized this. Complaints about prices, new models and such come from people with too many cameras with very little use of them.

Sony is the only innovative company at the moment and it comes with its own characteristics.

Let us face it, they are not fooling people like Hasselblad or Leica by repackaging someone else' cameras for a premium or sticking to the old SLR stuff like Canikon.
I think it is not the only one, what about Olympus ? But I agree, there is not much to expect from the big two.

As for your first paragraph. It is neither fair not courtous for the other users of this forum.
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
We just compared the high ISO between the A7s and the Nikon D700 (you may be too young to remember it). identical shots etc. there was some dispute, but basically the A7s had 1 stop advantage over the d700 so perhaps it was choosing s 12 MP sensor which was Sony's brainwave here.
Huh? Jono I am so surprised to read this statement I almost sprayed my keyboard with the morning coffee! You sure you and the mates didn't have a couple extra pints down at the pub and get the images confused? :)

I owned and used a D700 a few years back as my D3 backup for client work over a couple of years. While it was a nice camera, it wasn't anything even close to this a7s I am using today in the high ISO, low noise department. Not even on the same playing field, dude!

To start off with, the D700 has an ISO sensitivity range of ISO 200 to ISO 6400; can be set to "ISO-equivalent 25,600" but use that setting at your own risk - the dynamics of the photos at ISO's that high were sadly lacking, with the dynamic range gone, and the colors getting real thin very quick as the ISO rose. For me, ISO 6400 was really pushing it too far for regular use with my D700. Even at ISO 3200 there were times the noise got challenging if I hadn't perfectly nailed the exposure. I felt my D3 at the time was the better high ISO camera of my two. There I probably would give you a stop or even two of difference.

Move the technology forward almost four years, and we have the A7S. This camera vs a Nikon D700 isn't even a fair contest. The A7S can shoot at a sensitivity range of ISO 100 – 409600 with low noise and an unprecedented 15+ stops of dynamic range. I routinely shoot the a7s for client work at ISO settings above ISO 12,800 without fear. I use S-Log2 most of the time, so my minimum ISO is 3200, and I go up from there as necessary. The final files are amazingly clean with proper post processing once a little NR is applied, with excellent dynamic range.

One stop advantage? Naa... if we are talking about client usable images it is much more than that.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Huh? Jono I am so surprised to read this statement I almost sprayed my keyboard with the morning coffee! You sure you and the mates didn't have a couple extra pints down at the pub and get the images confused? :)
hi Chuck. we did the comparisons in poor light at 6400 ISO on a tripod rather carefully. Certainly I was very surprised (I used to have a D700 too and never much liked it). the dynamic range was a little better on the Sony, the noise almost the same as was the colour. Memory is one thing, but this was a proper comparison
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
You give the impression that you spend more time complaining about a Sony cam than actually use it.

The buttons, layouts and operational details are listed in the specifications. I read them before buying one. ;)
I've never yet bought a camera from just reading specifications or "operational details" and button layouts, and I seriously doubt you have either in many a year :)

In fact, I usually find it takes me a couple of months of using a camera in the field to decide if I like it enough to keep it or not. These new camera bodies are far too complex to ever understand or digest just from reading specifications or watching someone else's videos. I never know the whole truth until I dig in and get my feet wet making photos. Even a day or two of evaluation with a rental doesn't tell me nearly the whole story, though it is a good start.

Choosing a film camera the differences were not nearly as complex as they are with digital. Back then, the button layouts and operational details were all that counted. Today you choose your body, your "film look" and processing all in the same time.
 
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Vivek

Guest
As for your first paragraph. It is neither fair not courtous for the other users of this forum.

I do remember that you are the one who drove Ben away. {{}@)_OI()E(_)*

My post pertains to my experience and mine alone and I do not need your characterizations which are unwarranted, rude and untrue.
 
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Vivek

Guest
I've never yet bought a camera from just reading specifications or "operational details" and button layouts, and I seriously doubt you have either in many a year :)
Sure they are complicated, Chuck but I do look at the details. Believe you me, I checked everything out before I bought the MM. Same goes for the A7r and the 7. My money and time is precious to me and I do not waste any one else's. ;)
 

jonoslack

Active member
you said (Which Annna objected to)
Complaints about prices, new models and such come from people with too many cameras with very little use of them.
Then you said
My post pertains to my experience and mine alone and I do not need your characterizations which are unwarranted, rude and untrue.
I don't think it was unwarranted, rude or untrue. generally better not to cast aspersions I'd say. Tom was generous enough not to be offended at your remark.
 
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Vivek

Guest
I would ask the same (not to cast aspersions).

It is a matter of punctuations perhaps. Take it at its entirety and you need not even doubt how many cameras I own and how it is realistically possible to be using most of them in a given year. :)
 

jonoslack

Active member
ah Vivek. the difference between the collector and the simple GAS victim like me! I'm afraid the former is s more honourable occupation.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Not at all that way, Jono. My G1 still works, My "full spectrum G1 still works and though I had an offer, just loaned it to Rafael here (he got his converted professionally after trying mine) at my cost. I have had friendly such exchanges with Bart. These are few shiny examples that makes this forum wonderful.

I only had functional examples in mind.

I do not "collect" cameras or gear. A few rare lenses that I had bought for intended use stayed put without any. Sold them and bought the MM that does get used (again with great help from a friend who is also in this forum).
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I'm not sure what people are smoking on Sony forums around the internet. The only "innovation" I see from Sony in this case is putting a 35mm sensor in a small body, and:

- To get a complete A7 camera, I would need three bodies, one with premium video and good high ISO, one with IBIS and usable AF and one with high resolution. Still my D810 is probably a more capable camera than the sum of the three, but it lacks IBIS and the option of 4K.
- Two of those bodies have the nosiest shutter since... can't remember.
- IBIS is not a Sony innovation but something that came with Minolta. Olympus has had 5-axis IBIS for more than a year.
- None of those bodies have in-body 4K, one can record 4K with an external recorder. Panasonic offer in-body 4K with three bodies, one of which is nearly pocketable.
- The A7s has great high ISO, but Nikon offers at least four bodies that are less than one stop behind when reduced to 12MP (D750, D810, D4s and Df).
- Ergonomics are partly a matter of taste, but it's difficult to understand why Sony only figured things out after releasing three versions of the A7, particularly when they have been producing DSLR cameras with rather good ergonomics for around 10 years.

While the A7 bodies are nice, mostly because of their size and the ability to mount any old lens on a full frame sensor, Sony is definitely not in a class of its own when it comes to innovation. That is something they would have to share with Samsung, Olympus and Panasonic. Sony would undoubtedly win the prize for the most inconsistent model policy though. The camera manufacturer that impresses me most at the moment is Nikon. While they present technology in a very traditional package, their recent cameras are packed with great ideas and stand out as extremely usable tools for any kind of photography. Their DSLR cameras have come a long way since the D700, and sometimes I wonder if there has been more useful innovation going on the last five years in those camera bodies than in the mirrorless world.

Sorry for the rant. I would still like an A7something, but complete cameras they are not.
 
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