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Thanks a lot Sony >:(

Malina DZ

Member
If that video is made by Sony...
It is made by Sony Australia division. Here's the youtube channel that they closed, but it still links to sony.com.au
https://www.youtube.com/user/dslrgearnoidea

More about this campaign: Sony Australia's Hilarious Ad Campaign Pokes Fun at DSLR Users - Funny or Offensive?

No need to blame either Sony or Sigma for not comforting your photography needs. There are plenty of other options, brands that will happily take your hard earned $$$.

I'm as well as mjm6 concerned about absence of a modern camera with an OVF of a similar or better magnification, brightness, focusing snap than the one in a850/a900 :(
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I don't disagree with your analysis of the few interest of Sigma to make lenses for the Sony bodies, but still, your graph is misleading : why include fixed lenses cameras ? 1) They represent no interest to third parties lenses manufacturers. Yet, second your graph they consist of most of the units sold in Germany and prevents us to see clearly what is occurring in the interchangeable lenses market. b) your graph only shows the number of units sold, to make a better assessment one should look at their money value. c) this represents the situation in Germany only, discounting what is occurring in other countries and continents, where people are more open to mirrorless.

What this graph shows is that the interchangeable lenses cameras have a growing share of a globally sinking market. What it doesn't show is the increasing value of each unit sold. Between the bad state of the economy and the competition of smartphones, the camera/lenses market is going through hard times and reorganization, but all isn't bad news for third parties lens manufacturers, since the interchangeable lenses market isn't sinking as much as the fixed lens market. A fair assessment of their possible business opportunity should make abstraction of the fixed lenses cameras and concentrate on the interchangeable lenses market. Also, Sony market compared to Panasonic and other mirrorless manufacturers present since the beginning has steadily increased.
You are wrong on almost all accounts:

- The graph covers the world market and clearly states that. 15.5 million DSLR cameras per year in the German market is a bit over the top, don't you think?
- I didn't include fixed lens cameras, GFK did, but that doesn't change reality.
- If it matters that the graph shows units rather than value, it's to the advantage of mirrorless. Mirrorless cameras are supposed to be cheaper than DSLR cameras, aren't they?
- Of course mirrorless are growing. Eventually, that's what most people will be using. Even I agree on that, but it won't happen overnight. A vast majority of people will stay with the system they have because they have lenses etc. for that system. If mirrorless represented some amazing revolution over DSLR, it would be something else, but it doesn't. That revolution is represented by the camera phones.

The new Canon EOS 760D weighs 555 grams including battery, with a fully articulated LCD plus a top LCD and compatibility with over a 100 million EF lenses out there. The Canon EOS M3 weighs 366 grams, but lacks a viewfinder, lacks a top LCD and has half the battery life. Canon doesn't even bother to market it in North America, probably due to the slow mirrorless sales in that market. Is that the tsunami some are talking about?
 

dandrewk

New member
I've predicted that in a thread several weeks ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean the death of DSLR cameras. Some people seem to think that once a new technology is introduced, others must die, but the world isn't like that. We still have pens, even if there are typewriters and computers. We still have trains, even if there are planes. I have just gone back to DSLR after 5 years with mirrorless cameras, simply because I find it a more useful tool. Maybe I'm stupid, but I know other stupid people who have done the same.
... and there are still film cameras. ... and there are still flip ("dumb") phones. Heck, there are still horses and buggies. I don't think mirrorless will 100% replace DSLRs, but it WILL push DSLR sales into near irrelevancies. Sooner than you think, too.

Current sales/charts have to be taken in context. Several years ago, I could produce a chart showing flip phones FAR outselling smart phones. What could we deduce from that?

Adaptability and changing to meet -current- trends is key. Samsung adapted to the incoming smart phones and are a smashing success. Motorola and Ericsson did not, and look at them now.

BTW, neither yourself nor anybody who returned to DSLRs are "stupid". You all have valid reasons to do so. However, the validity of those reasons will soon go away, if it hasn't already.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
... and there are still film cameras. ... and there are still flip ("dumb") phones. Heck, there are still horses and buggies. I don't think mirrorless will 100% replace DSLRs, but it WILL push DSLR sales into near irrelevancies. Sooner than you think, too.

Current sales/charts have to be taken in context. Several years ago, I could produce a chart showing flip phones FAR outselling smart phones. What could we deduce from that?

Adaptability and changing to meet -current- trends is key. Samsung adapted to the incoming smart phones and are a smashing success. Motorola and Ericsson did not, and look at them now.

BTW, neither yourself nor anybody who returned to DSLRs are "stupid". You all have valid reasons to do so. However, the validity of those reasons will soon go away, if it hasn't already.
The first smartphones came from Nokia and Ericsson. They are both dead when it comes to handsets.

I'm not talking about sales figures several years ago, I'm talking about sales figures right now. In 2014, DSLR cameras outsold mirrorless cameras 3.5 : 1 in spite of the fact that you can buy good quality, new-in-box mirrorless cameras with kit lens for less than $400. I can probably sell my beaten up D300 for more than that.
 

dandrewk

New member
The first smartphones came from Nokia and Ericsson. They are both dead when it comes to handsets.
No, the first smartphone was from IBM ("Simon"). The first Ericsson was basically a PDA with cellular connectivity. Generally though, RIM's Blackberry was considered first with a smartphone with worldwide adoption.

I'm not talking about sales figures several years ago, I'm talking about sales figures right now. In 2014, DSLR cameras outsold mirrorless cameras 3.5 : 1 in spite of the fact that you can buy good quality, new-in-box mirrorless cameras with kit lens for less than $400. I can probably sell my beaten up D300 for more than that.
No, what you are doing is using current sales figures and extrapolating from there. You can't do that anymore than you could have done that with smart phones several years ago.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
No, the first smartphone was from IBM ("Simon"). The first Ericsson was basically a PDA with cellular connectivity. Generally though, RIM's Blackberry was considered first with a smartphone with worldwide adoption.



No, what you are doing is using current sales figures and extrapolating from there. You can't do that anymore than you could have done that with smart phones several years ago.
Nitpicking. The first commercially successful smart phones without a keyboard then... :rolleyes:

For major technological innovations, using current sales figures don't hold water. But for the average user, a mirrorless camera isn't a major technological breakthrough. It's a camera with interchangeable lenses that is mostly a bit smaller and lighter than a DSLR and which mostly has an EVF, something some prefer and some don't like. Most users couldn't care less if there's a mirror and shutter inside the camera, but they prefer a camera with a shutter sound, so that they know that they have taken a photo. Many also prefer a camera where you can look through the viewfinder even when the camera is switched off and absolutely everybody prefer a camera with as long battery life as possible.

The danger for Sony is that they have jumped with both feet into this without any open back door or support until mirrorless sales take off. They probably thought that SLT would represent that back door, but indications are strong that this is not the case. The strong reduction in sales as a result of leaving SLR for SLT indicates how important the OVF is to many. That should be food for thought.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The most misleading thing about this chart is it doesn't take into account the last quarter on 2014 for holiday sales in which cameras were a huge hit this past Christmas. Using Canon as an example for mirrorless is a joke because they really didn't support their body at all in North America. They released a kit zoom and a kit pancake... and nothing else here. Nikon did a lot better than Canon while they quietly released as many if not more bodies than Sony with fewer lenses and a tiny sensor.

The second thing is that - no, DSLR's aren't going away but entry level ones probably will in the next 5 years - at least the multiple versions using essentially the same sensors with the advanced, hobbyist, and beginner features being the main difference. I think DSLR's will come down to the full body pro model, the compact pro model, the high megapixel studio/landscape body, and the advanced cropped sensor. Mirrorless will absorb the beginner, advanced hobbyist, and the flexible pro body for those that wish to have the freedom to adapt with a robust body.

As for the need for OVF/EVF, I believe that's more of a concern for traditional photographers. Visit the tourist area of any city and there are enough people more than happy with using their cell phone at arms length. Buy a new cell phone or read a review and camera quality is a huge part of their selling tactics... Probably as much as whether to choose iOS, Android, Windows Mobile, or one of the other mobile OS systems.

The important take away is that mirrorless is growing. The features are getting there. I agree that FF mirrorless will always be a niche in comparison to cropped sensors much in the same way that FF dslr is a niche to cropped sensor dslr. For every A7 there's 20-30 A6xxx, A5xxx, OM-D, etc.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
The strong reduction in sales as a result of leaving SLR for SLT indicates how important the OVF is to many. That should be food for thought.
Your anti Sony tirade is not going dampen the enthusiasm of the users however it might eventually lead to lower traffic so that the Sony section will be on par with the deserted Nikon one.
 

ecsh

New member
Your anti Sony tirade is not going dampen the enthusiasm of the users however it might eventually lead to lower traffic so that the Sony section will be on par with the deserted Nikon one.
+1
Its getting old:deadhorse:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Not an anti-Sony tirade but an amusing fact:

The A7 (and even its batteries taken out of the camera!) is the only camera I have that will drain its batteries while sitting on the shelf from 100% to 10% in three weeks time without the camera being used at all. (Yes, WiFi is off.)

The worst of any of my other cameras in the same time period drags the battery down to 40%.

It's a power hungry little bugger. :)

G
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
People, please tone it down a notch. We are all entitled to our opinions, and as of right now regardless of the data presented, future predictions are only guesses; any or all could be right or wrong. Trends are what they are, but none of us KNOW what the future holds, so no sense arguing about it. Share your thoughts in a friendly fashion sure, but let's not dip to the aggressive type of banter that pervades other forums.

What I think may help steer this thread is to look back at history. Ever since I began shooting, "pro" level camera sales have encompassed a very small percentage of the total camera market and users. I believe they still do and will continue to do so for some time.

That said, I have a prediction to share: that ultimately we'll all be capturing continuous, streaming 4K video through a pair of $100 glasses. The $1000 glasses will have better buffer and optics. The $10 pair will be 2K capture with lesser optics, akin to the Kodak Brownie camera I had as a kid. We won't have storage cards per se, as a basic cell phone -- which will be called a "pocket device" -- will have a couple TB of bubble memory that we can stream our glasses capture directly to.
 

uhoh7

New member
The OP complains about ease of design for 3rd party and I think he has a point. Regarding the A mount there is a simple matter of volume. Not many use this mount compared to to Canikon.

As far as E-mount is concerned Sony has not made it easy either. It may be the quest to replace the 5D as a video machine which has them putting thick cover glass on their sensors, but what ever the reason, new lenses for the E mount 35 and wider must be specially designed to perform as well as Canikon counterparts.

As a lens maker, like sigma, should I invest in a totally new design, like the FE35/2.8, or attempt to adapt a current design to the CG, like the Loxia 35/2, which has many in "meh" mode?

If I do invest in a new design, how do I know these cameras will not be superseded by thinner CG which won't love my new lens so much?

Sony misses the obvious solution: Let the e-mount evolve in two directions: one with 4K video and ISO performance a priority, and what ever CG will support that (thinner the better) and second, a still priority camera with emphasis on wide compatibility, compact footprint for FF, and highest still image quality; the means a CG about .8mm to 1mm, i.e. around what the M240 has. Then everyone will be very very happy :)

If you are not clear why this issue is a the heart of the matter:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/the-glass-in-the-path-sensor-stacks-and-adapted-lenses

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter
 
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dandrewk

New member
Not an anti-Sony tirade but an amusing fact:

The A7 (and even its batteries taken out of the camera!) is the only camera I have that will drain its batteries while sitting on the shelf from 100% to 10% in three weeks time without the camera being used at all. (Yes, WiFi is off.)

The worst of any of my other cameras in the same time period drags the battery down to 40%.

It's a power hungry little bugger. :)

G
If you have set up your camera for WiFi connection, try setting it to "airplane mode".
 

mbroomfield

New member
Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina). Around 2008-2010, Sony had a DSLR market share of 10-15%. Now, with the SLT cameras, it's less than 5% and sinking. It doesn't make sense for Sigma to produce A-mount lenses for such a small market with the extra, worldwide logistics costs involved, particularly when they have to compete with Sony's rather good Zeiss lenses and also considering the fact that Sony only makes one full frame A-mount camera, the A99, a camera that doesn't seem to sell very well.

With E-mount and the mirrorless market, Sony has a larger market share, but also that share is sinking (under 30% now), and since Sony is the only manufacturer making full frame mirrorless cameras, any full frame lens developed by Sigma for FE mount would be a "Sony Special", relevant only to a tiny fraction of the camera market.

Here's a graph made by German consumer research company GFK in connection with Photokina last year. Sony A7 is a tiny slit of the rather small, sky blue stripe under the navy blue on top:

Where did they get these numbers? I thought the mirrorless looked really low. They don't jive remotely with these from CIPA shipment

2014
SLR 10.5M
Mirrorless 3.3M
fixed lenses 29.6M

2013
SLR 13.8M
Mirrorless 3.3M
fixed lenses 45.7M

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-2014_e.pdf
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
If you have set up your camera for WiFi connection, try setting it to "airplane mode".
Thanks! I'd done that pretty much the day I got the A7 body, but I think I used the WiFi feature to capture a party shot in December and forgot to turn it back to airplane mode. It's back in airplane mode again as of two days ago, and the drain is slower.

What was disturbing to me was that all of my spare batteries were drained down too. I see no good explanation of that. LiIon batteries for my other cameras don't drain so fast when just sitting.

G
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
They lose some but its pretty slow. Not sure but what charger are you using sometimes these things do not top the batteries off. Im using the duo Watson charger now and love it as it tells me its at 100 percent. There not exactly cheap at 75 dollars but it charges two at once which is real nice. I do recommend it since most of us now are pretty well set to stay in Sony and I don't see the batteries changing either.

See if I can find a link

Okay 80 bucks

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/837349-REG/watson_d_4228_duo_lcd_charger_with.html

BTW Im not really seeing any real difference between a sony branded battery and a off brand like the Watsons. I have 6 batteries now and a mixed bag between them and Im not testing for it but I have not noticed any difference in performance.
 
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