Thanks a lot Sony >:(

[Vivek]

The modern design Leica lenses are worth using on A7/7R. The famed "fondler" designs are best on film cameras. Ancient, simpler ones (those Hektors, Elmars and Summars) are somewhere in between.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina). Around 2008-2010, Sony had a DSLR market share of 10-15%. Now, with the SLT cameras, it's less than 5% and sinking. It doesn't make sense for Sigma to produce A-mount lenses for such a small market with the extra, worldwide logistics costs involved, particularly when they have to compete with Sony's rather good Zeiss lenses and also considering the fact that Sony only makes one full frame A-mount camera, the A99, a camera that doesn't seem to sell very well.

With E-mount and the mirrorless market, Sony has a larger market share, but also that share is sinking (under 30% now), and since Sony is the only manufacturer making full frame mirrorless cameras, any full frame lens developed by Sigma for FE mount would be a "Sony Special", relevant only to a tiny fraction of the camera market.

Here's a graph made by German consumer research company GFK in connection with Photokina last year. Sony A7 is a tiny slit of the rather small, sky blue stripe under the navy blue on top:

 

[Vivek]

Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina).

Following the exact business sense..they continue to make the Sigma mount lenses. :loco:

SIGMA 24mm 1.4 DG HSM | Art Lens - Wide Angle Lenses - SigmaPhoto.com

BTW, I don't know why Rafa will not go for this:

Mount Conversion Service | Sigma Corporation of America

They will convert it to even Pentax mount!

 

[mjm6]

OK, I'll bite on this (and probably regret it later)...

Look at the three categories at the top; SLR, Mirrorless, and Premium. All three are growing. The rest of the market (fixed lens P&S) is shrinking, rapidly, but that should come as no surprise to anyone. Cell phones serve that purpose now.

It appears you may believe that these segments are decreasing, but the numbers clearly indicate an expanding market for these.

I suspect that until Sony produces some excitement in the A mount products, Sigma and others will probably continue to do what they just did. Their bread gets buttered by Canon and Nikon users, and they will continue to ignore the A mount cameras, or at least serve the C&N people first.

I was really hoping to see another camera like the a900 before they killed the OVF bodies, and it now appears to me that they may be on their way to killing all the A bodies (in time). simply not maintaining a critical mass of innovation and body diversity to keep anyone interested.


---Michael

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

OK, I'll bite on this (and probably regret it later)...

Look at the three categories at the top; SLR, Mirrorless, and Premium. All three are growing. The rest of the market (fixed lens P&S) is shrinking, rapidly, but that should come as no surprise to anyone. Cell phones serve that purpose now.

It appears you may believe that these segments are decreasing, but the numbers clearly indicate an expanding market for these.

I suspect that until Sony produces some excitement in the A mount products, Sigma and others will probably continue to do what they just did. Their bread gets buttered by Canon and Nikon users, and they will continue to ignore the A mount cameras, or at least serve the C&N people first.

I was really hoping to see another camera like the a900 before they killed the OVF bodies, and it now appears to me that they may be on their way to killing all the A bodies (in time). simply not maintaining a critical mass of innovation and body diversity to keep anyone interested.


---Michael

You are right, but the problem for Sigma is that they need to make lenses for cameras that dominate the market now, not those that may be successful in a few years. Not only are Canikon producing much more DSLR cameras at the moment than the sum of all mirrorless bodies, but there's an enormous amount of cameras sold the last fifteen years also. If Sony don't change their ways, it's only a question of time before the A-mount is history. That's very unfortunate, since they started so well. The SLT cameras have many great sides too, but it's very clear that they don't sell. A sinking market share in a diminishing market isn't much to brag about.

I spite of all enthusiasm for the A7++, it's still a very tiny niche of the camera market. Unless others, typically Canon, Nikon and Pentax, join that niche, I'm afraid it will continue to be small. I doubt Sony can make that breakthrough alone, and at the moment, they are losing market shares in the mirrorless market, mostly to Olympus, but Samsung will clearly start to nibble at their parts as well.

What surprised me the most with the above statistics was the strong position of the "Premium Fixed Lens" category. It makes sense, and it's very positive. That means that there are still enough photographers out there who appreciate compact cameras that are better than mobile phones

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Following the exact business sense..they continue to make the Sigma mount lenses. :loco:

SIGMA 24mm 1.4 DG HSM | Art Lens - Wide Angle Lenses - SigmaPhoto.com

BTW, I don't know why Rafa will not go for this:

Mount Conversion Service | Sigma Corporation of America

They will convert it to even Pentax mount!

"*Subject to mount, parts and service availability. Not all products are available in Pentax and/or Sony Mounts. Please check the specific product page to check availability in those mounts."

The question is if the service apply to other lenses than those that were offered in A/K mount to start with. Would be interesting to know.

As for the Sigma mount, it's probably as profitable as the Quattro models. Must be some kind of hobby, unless they have market shares in Japan that make this viable.

 

[mjm6]

...That's very unfortunate, since they started so well. The SLT cameras have many great sides too, but it's very clear that they don't sell. A sinking market share in a diminishing market isn't much to brag about.

Well, I'm one who won't buy an SLT camera. Dropping the OVF forced me to re-evaluate, and I went for the a7 series.

But I really, really love the a900 (Still have it. My wife has it in Antarctica on research right now...). It is the best SLR camera I've owned and used, possibly ever, and I have used many, because I shot for a couple of press organizations during my college years. The New F-1s and T90 were great cameras as well, but the a900 beats them in the viewfinder I think.

Makes me somewhat mad at Sony that I switched from Canon after having been with them since 1982, only to see them drop the really great camera and produce noting interesting in SLRs after that for the most part.

Somewhat happy with the a7r, but not like I was with the a900...

I guess I don't really care what happens with the A line. It seems I am pretty committed to the FE mount now, even though almost all my lenses are still A mount.

---Michael

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Well, I'm one who won't buy an SLT camera. Dropping the OVF forced me to re-evaluate, and I went for the a7 series.

But I really, really love the a900 (Still have it. My wife has it in Antarctica on research right now...). It is the best SLR camera I've owned and used, possibly ever, and I have used many, because I shot for a couple of press organizations during my college years. The New F-1s and T90 were great cameras as well, but the a900 beats them in the viewfinder I think.

Makes me somewhat mad at Sony that I switched from Canon after having been with them since 1982, only to see them drop the really great camera and produce noting interesting in SLRs after that for the most part.

Somewhat happy with the a7r, but not like I was with the a900...

I guess I don't really care what happens with the A line. It seems I am pretty committed to the FE mount now, even though almost all my lenses are still A mount.

---Michael

My impression is that your view is typical for many former A900 users, and herein lies the headache for Sony. I guess not even Sony know how many went from A-mount to FE-mount and how many went to Canon and Nikon, but looking at the figures above, most have probably disappeared to the competitors. That means that most of Sony's investment into DSLR/SLT cameras must be considered lost. That was quick...

 

[dandrewk]

I spite of all enthusiasm for the A7++, it's still a very tiny niche of the camera market. Unless others, typically Canon, Nikon and Pentax, join that niche, I'm afraid it will continue to be small. I doubt Sony can make that breakthrough alone, and at the moment, they are losing market shares in the mirrorless market, mostly to Olympus, but Samsung will clearly start to nibble at their parts as well.

What surprised me the most with the above statistics was the strong position of the "Premium Fixed Lens" category. It makes sense, and it's very positive. That means that there are still enough photographers out there who appreciate compact cameras that are better than mobile phones

I doubt you could be more wrong. Looking at the -current- sales figures, mirrorless cameras is neither "small" nor "niche". Throwing terms like that around only serves to invalidate the rest of your points.

My prediction - five years from now, DSLRs will take their place alongside film cameras - quaint rigs that are used by photographers too stubborn to admit that the old technology has been obsoleted.

Whether or not Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. produce FF mirrorless cameras is immaterial to the coming tsumami in high(er) end photography. They either adapt, or, like Kodak, they become irrelevant and disappear.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I doubt you could be more wrong. Looking at the -current- sales figures, mirrorless cameras is neither "small" nor "niche". Throwing terms like that around only serves to invalidate the rest of your points.

My prediction - five years from now, DSLRs will take their place alongside film cameras - quaint rigs that are used by photographers too stubborn to admit that the old technology has been obsoleted.

Whether or not Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. produce FF mirrorless cameras is immaterial to the coming tsumami in high(er) end photography. They either adapt, or, like Kodak, they become irrelevant and disappear.

To start with, I didn't say that mirrorless in general is "small" or "niche", but full frame mirrorless is. Secondly, look at the diagram above and you see the current sales volumes for the different camera groups. On what figures do you base your "Tsunami Theory"? Who other than Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. will produce that tsunami? Sony's market share is sinking.

 

[MikeEvangelist]

My prediction - five years from now, DSLRs will take their place alongside film cameras - quaint rigs that are used by photographers too stubborn to admit that the old technology has been obsoleted.

I was just about to compose a nearly identical response. Over the next few years, the any profit in photographic equipment is going to come primarily from the mirrorless category. Sony is well positioned to take advantage of that sea change.

 

[Malina DZ]

BTW, I don't know why Rafa will not go for this:

Mount Conversion Service | Sigma Corporation of America

They will convert it to even Pentax mount!

Sigma won't convert 24/1.4 Art into Pentax or Sony mount until they start producing the lens for those mounts.
From FAQ page:
Can I request to convert to any mount of my choice?
Yes, as long as the lens in the requested mount has been released by Sigma as a product.
FAQs | Sigma Corporation of America

I'm not counting on Sony producing another FF Alpha mount camera or designing new Alpha lenses since the release of their ad campaign pushing NEX system that they found to be very successful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EapcIYsF8QM

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I was just about to compose a nearly identical response. Over the next few years, the any profit in photographic equipment is going to come primarily from the mirrorless category. Sony is well positioned to take advantage of that sea change.

So what you are indicating is that the above figures are based on lies, and that the DSLR market is not 3.5 times as big as the mirrorless market, or that within the next 5 years, photographers, professionals as well as amateurs, will suddenly transfer to mirrorless in droves, in spite of not having done that the previous 5 years and in spite of the fact that it will leave most of their lenses and other camera investments more or less obsolete. It would also mean a little revolution within professional sports photography, where the mirrorless market share at the moment is zero, give or take a couple of cameras.

 

[Annna T]

I don't disagree with your analysis of the few interest of Sigma to make lenses for the Sony bodies, but still, your graph is misleading : why include fixed lenses cameras ? 1) They represent no interest to third parties lenses manufacturers. Yet, second your graph they consist of most of the units sold in Germany and prevents us to see clearly what is occurring in the interchangeable lenses market. b) your graph only shows the number of units sold, to make a better assessment one should look at their money value. c) this represents the situation in Germany only, discounting what is occurring in other countries and continents, where people are more open to mirrorless.

What this graph shows is that the interchangeable lenses cameras have a growing share of a globally sinking market. What it doesn't show is the increasing value of each unit sold. Between the bad state of the economy and the competition of smartphones, the camera/lenses market is going through hard times and reorganization, but all isn't bad news for third parties lens manufacturers, since the interchangeable lenses market isn't sinking as much as the fixed lens market. A fair assessment of their possible business opportunity should make abstraction of the fixed lenses cameras and concentrate on the interchangeable lenses market. Also, Sony market compared to Panasonic and other mirrorless manufacturers present since the beginning has steadily increased.

Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina). Around 2008-2010, Sony had a DSLR market share of 10-15%. Now, with the SLT cameras, it's less than 5% and sinking. It doesn't make sense for Sigma to produce A-mount lenses for such a small market with the extra, worldwide logistics costs involved, particularly when they have to compete with Sony's rather good Zeiss lenses and also considering the fact that Sony only makes one full frame A-mount camera, the A99, a camera that doesn't seem to sell very well.



With E-mount and the mirrorless market, Sony has a larger market share, but also that share is sinking (under 30% now), and since Sony is the only manufacturer making full frame mirrorless cameras, any full frame lens developed by Sigma for FE mount would be a "Sony Special", relevant only to a tiny fraction of the camera market.

Here's a graph made by German consumer research company GFK in connection with Photokina last year. Sony A7 is a tiny slit of the rather small, sky blue stripe under the navy blue on top:

 

[MikeEvangelist]

I didn't say five years, I said a 'few'. ;-)

But yes, it will absolutely happen. Today's problems/limitations with EVF lag, focus speed, frame rates, etc, etc, will be solved and mirrorless cameras will eventually surpass the capabilities of SLRs. Meanwhile, camera phones will totally consume the lower portion of the graph. The company(s) making the best sensors are going to be the big winners. Sony is way ahead there, for now; but things can change quickly.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I'm not counting on Sony producing another FF Alpha mount camera or designing new Alpha lenses since the release of their ad campaign pushing NEX system that they found to be very successful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EapcIYsF8QM

If that video is made by Sony, they have basically said goodbye to DSLR/SLT, and it's almost surprising that there are still cameras/lenses on the shelves.

 

[dandrewk]

To start with, I didn't say that mirrorless in general is "small" or "niche", but full frame mirrorless is. Secondly, look at the diagram above and you see the current sales volumes for the different camera groups. On what figures do you base your "Tsunami Theory"? Who other than Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. will produce that tsunami? Sony's market share is sinking.

You seem to going out of your way with messaging numbers and using semantics to prove a point. OF COURSE FF cameras are going to have -relatively- small numbers. They've been available for all of one year. Look no further than the growth of APS/C mirrorless cameras for a more accurate indication as to what the future portends.

Canon/Nikon etc. aren't stupid, they're just slow. Their user base isn't stupid either, and sooner rather than later will stop supporting the fractional "updates" coming from the established brands.

Any manufacturer who hasn't jumped in mirrorless technologies will take their place alongside Kodak and Polaroid. I expect them all to have viable FF offerings within the year.

 

[dandrewk]

If that video is made by Sony, they have basically said goodbye to DSLR/SLT, and it's almost surprising that there are still cameras/lenses on the shelves.

Then I wonder why you are SO certain that Olympus, Pentax, Nikon and Canon won't follow suit and say "goodbye" to old, expensive and limiting technology?

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I expect them all to have viable FF offerings within the year.

I've predicted that in a thread several weeks ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean the death of DSLR cameras. Some people seem to think that once a new technology is introduced, others must die, but the world isn't like that. We still have pens, even if there are typewriters and computers. We still have trains, even if there are planes. I have just gone back to DSLR after 5 years with mirrorless cameras, simply because I find it a more useful tool. Maybe I'm stupid, but I know other stupid people who have done the same.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Then I wonder why you are SO certain that Olympus, Pentax, Nikon and Canon won't follow suit and say "goodbye" to old, expensive and limiting technology?

Apart from Olympus, who already did that, the others apparently make a profit on DSLR systems, and as the figures in the chart above shows, the DSLR market is still much bigger than the mirrorless market.

Sony has made the decision not to continue making DSLR cameras. We don't know if they thought that they could win market shares with their SLT cameras, but it's rather clear now that they didn't.