V
Vivek
Guest
Similar things happen with the A7s in silent shutter mode as well. It is least reliable when it is most needed. Works very well in daylight though.
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
Here we go again...
- Thread starter Jim DE
- Start date
David, I don't dive into this stuff as much as many but I don't think the "hype" for this body was generated by Sony as much as by people from other systems looking at it as a economical way of using their glass on a body with some technological advancements. From what I remember the first info was at or near its announcement and it was not much more than stating what it had. It was the public that ran a flag up the pole and hysterically chanted its name into some sort of super camera. But I am old and my memory sucks...
I have had this body since the 6th and it is performing better than my a99 for the purpose I bought it. I have yet to experience even one of the issues some are going to extremes to find. Then again I don't use or even need silent shutter or video. As far as the long exposure issue ... I have done night exposures at base ISO with lenr on to 30 sec and have yet to see a issue. I don't shoot solar systems as though I find them interesting there is little to no market for them where I am located.
Bottom line I bought it as a replacement for my NEX7 as a light hike in scenic camera and it has exceeded my expectations. I don't use or own Canikon anything nor Leica so if their glass works or not on this body is of no concern to me. It is a tool I bought for a purpose and it does better than I had hoped for my needs and wants. I have not bought a digital camera body expecting it to be a do everything exceptionall body since my first dslr. I buy them like golf clubs meaning specific bodies for specific needs and I think Sony with the A7x line knows that and builds its bodies for specific needs as well which has been obvious. Will every body make every customer happy? Nope!!! And that is expected going in: will some hate things about a camera just to be haters or their expectations were unrealistic? Yup! Or will there be those who will never admit they spent considerable money on a product without doing enough personal research to determine if it meets their needs and wants but instead jumped on a hope and wish hype train and filled in? Of course!!!
I buy a still camera to be a still camera... If I wanted a video camera I'd buy a video camera. I do not set unrealistic goals nor do I expect any product to work exceptionally outside its design intent goals. Ask me what I think of the a7rII and I would tell you it is a exceptional tool.... I literally laugh at people complaining about performance issues after 72 continuous 30 second exposures in the summer. Or video in a still camera that after 20 minutes of continuous use it overheats. I just shake my head and go out using this camera for what I bought it to do that was defined initially in the Sony release specs. If I was a video guy or a astrophotographer and experienced what some are noting I would send the body back knowing that it might not be the best tool for this purposes. Silent shutter banding? I have seen flor light banding in just about every digital I have owned at certain shutter speeds. Not experiencing this specific issue I don't know if it is the same or a new issue but then again like a astro or video guy if silent shutter is a need in mixed lighting then again this might be a deal breaker. I have yet to find the Swiss Army knife camera body in digital that does everything better than any other body out there. If it doesn't do what the buyer needed it to do then send it back but the absurd whining and complaining of functional issues on the extreme spec boundaries by some is as overhyped as many were initially going into the purchase.
I have had this body since the 6th and it is performing better than my a99 for the purpose I bought it. I have yet to experience even one of the issues some are going to extremes to find. Then again I don't use or even need silent shutter or video. As far as the long exposure issue ... I have done night exposures at base ISO with lenr on to 30 sec and have yet to see a issue. I don't shoot solar systems as though I find them interesting there is little to no market for them where I am located.
Bottom line I bought it as a replacement for my NEX7 as a light hike in scenic camera and it has exceeded my expectations. I don't use or own Canikon anything nor Leica so if their glass works or not on this body is of no concern to me. It is a tool I bought for a purpose and it does better than I had hoped for my needs and wants. I have not bought a digital camera body expecting it to be a do everything exceptionall body since my first dslr. I buy them like golf clubs meaning specific bodies for specific needs and I think Sony with the A7x line knows that and builds its bodies for specific needs as well which has been obvious. Will every body make every customer happy? Nope!!! And that is expected going in: will some hate things about a camera just to be haters or their expectations were unrealistic? Yup! Or will there be those who will never admit they spent considerable money on a product without doing enough personal research to determine if it meets their needs and wants but instead jumped on a hope and wish hype train and filled in? Of course!!!
I buy a still camera to be a still camera... If I wanted a video camera I'd buy a video camera. I do not set unrealistic goals nor do I expect any product to work exceptionally outside its design intent goals. Ask me what I think of the a7rII and I would tell you it is a exceptional tool.... I literally laugh at people complaining about performance issues after 72 continuous 30 second exposures in the summer. Or video in a still camera that after 20 minutes of continuous use it overheats. I just shake my head and go out using this camera for what I bought it to do that was defined initially in the Sony release specs. If I was a video guy or a astrophotographer and experienced what some are noting I would send the body back knowing that it might not be the best tool for this purposes. Silent shutter banding? I have seen flor light banding in just about every digital I have owned at certain shutter speeds. Not experiencing this specific issue I don't know if it is the same or a new issue but then again like a astro or video guy if silent shutter is a need in mixed lighting then again this might be a deal breaker. I have yet to find the Swiss Army knife camera body in digital that does everything better than any other body out there. If it doesn't do what the buyer needed it to do then send it back but the absurd whining and complaining of functional issues on the extreme spec boundaries by some is as overhyped as many were initially going into the purchase.
Last edited:
I don't know why people would buy a camera because it worked well with other manufacturers' lenses. If they do, it is very naive of them to expect performance on par with the OEM bodies.
I have always been looking for a small, compact camera that can do most of what I do with my Canon bodies and deliver the same if not better IQ. Needless to say, the lenses too would need to be smaller. If such a camera does appear on the market and is also able to use other third party lenses (albeit not perfectly), it is simply the icing on an already nice cake.
To me, the A7 series from Sony did just that. Not perfect, for example it never made a good cup of coffee, but it did deliver on most of what it promised.
I tried the Leica M system before the Sony came along. Bought the M9 and later the M240 as well, along with Leica and Zeiss lenses. Total expense - $20K. The Sony A7RII with equivalent lenses - $8900. IQ, ease of use, AF, versatility (primes vs zooms), fps, expandability (third party equipment), high ISO performance, all so much better with the Sony. My own comparison of sharpness, color, contrast, distortion showed me that a lot of the legendary Leica quality is hype too. The only down side with the Sony being the larger size of the lenses. But, overall satisfaction way higher.
Everyone has their own needs and expectations. I am sure many here love their Leicas for various reasons. We all make mistakes, buying stuff that we later regret, I've done enough of that. However, sometimes it does work out.
Right now, in terms of IQ and size, I can honestly say my A7RII with the Batis 25 is just about the best combination of lens and camera I've ever owned. Period.
I have always been looking for a small, compact camera that can do most of what I do with my Canon bodies and deliver the same if not better IQ. Needless to say, the lenses too would need to be smaller. If such a camera does appear on the market and is also able to use other third party lenses (albeit not perfectly), it is simply the icing on an already nice cake.
To me, the A7 series from Sony did just that. Not perfect, for example it never made a good cup of coffee, but it did deliver on most of what it promised.
I tried the Leica M system before the Sony came along. Bought the M9 and later the M240 as well, along with Leica and Zeiss lenses. Total expense - $20K. The Sony A7RII with equivalent lenses - $8900. IQ, ease of use, AF, versatility (primes vs zooms), fps, expandability (third party equipment), high ISO performance, all so much better with the Sony. My own comparison of sharpness, color, contrast, distortion showed me that a lot of the legendary Leica quality is hype too. The only down side with the Sony being the larger size of the lenses. But, overall satisfaction way higher.
Everyone has their own needs and expectations. I am sure many here love their Leicas for various reasons. We all make mistakes, buying stuff that we later regret, I've done enough of that. However, sometimes it does work out.
Right now, in terms of IQ and size, I can honestly say my A7RII with the Batis 25 is just about the best combination of lens and camera I've ever owned. Period.
I guess this is a lot like altered computer phrase." Unsustanciated, unrealistic, customer hype going in yields unrealistic, irrational hype going out"
We can expect nothing less......
Dave, just so you know these statements have nothing to do with you or your review because I did not read yours or anyone else's once I saw it was another basic "witch hunt" to have to find something or anything wrong with this body no matter how absurd the criteria had to be taken to observe said issues.
We can expect nothing less......
Dave, just so you know these statements have nothing to do with you or your review because I did not read yours or anyone else's once I saw it was another basic "witch hunt" to have to find something or anything wrong with this body no matter how absurd the criteria had to be taken to observe said issues.
Last edited:
jonoslack
Active member
I don't know about 72 continuous 30 second exposures . . . but a camera offering 4k video IS a video camera - and should be able to manage more than 20 minutes before it overheats - I know you don't need it (and nor do I), but if you have a feature, then it should work properly, and this camera is touting professional quality video
It's not the same issue - if you look at Dave's sample, it was taken in low ambient lighting with fairy lights - and if you're shooting a wedding that kind of thing is a catastrophe (I know, I've done it). Lost shots are not alright . . . ever.
Edit - having just read Greg's review (who took the image with the banding) - he says
"Out of thousands of images I’ve only seen this once inside a teepee with lights running off a generator and only on one image. But it’s worth being aware of."
doesn't mean it's okay, but it does put a rather more realistic light on the situation
It's not 'absurd whining' to expect it to perform properly within the quoted functionality - if you have a silent shutter it shouldn't trash images - or you should put a pretty strong warning in there to the effect. Neither of these issues are on the 'extreme spec boundaries' they're both core functionality, and they should work properly.
On the other hand I realise that it's no deal breaker for you . . . . but it's still the case that these advertised features should work properly, and if (when) such things don't work on Canon cameras (or Nikon or Leica) then there is just the same kind of outcry.
Last edited:
Jono, the absurd spec boundaries I am referring to are the long exposure noise and hot pixel issues. As I said I am not aware of the silent shutter banding but as you found once in 1000 shots is a very small occurance rate to say the least. Wouldn't you agree and with a gas generator as a power source for the lighting???
I don't know what would be realistic time wise before a full frame sensor would overheat during continuous shooting but I will say this attaching microphones, monitors, sound units, and aux recorders to a still camera to make it as functional as a true video camera is like putting mag wheels and slicks on a VW beetle and expect to beat don Garlits funny car. I still say if one wants professional video buy a video camera and be done with it.
I don't know what would be realistic time wise before a full frame sensor would overheat during continuous shooting but I will say this attaching microphones, monitors, sound units, and aux recorders to a still camera to make it as functional as a true video camera is like putting mag wheels and slicks on a VW beetle and expect to beat don Garlits funny car. I still say if one wants professional video buy a video camera and be done with it.
That is indeed very odd and looks more like a firmware problem or even a card issue (have seen similar things posted that turned out to be a write-toward issue) rather than a rolling shutter and florescent lighting as shown in these shots below with the A7s and electronic shutter.
I know know how to avoid this and it is really no longer a problem
Last edited:
V
Vivek
Guest
May be the SSS freezes the band? Banding with and without the SSS may give an answer?
I think a feature like 'silent shutter' is very valuable in certain situations and combined with the high ISO capability of the A7RII I can see how it would be a great camera to take when you are in an indoor event where discretion is desirable.
I am not likely to utilize the camera in such settings, and especially not professionally since I am not a pro. I can see though how it could be very important for wedding/concert photographers. I don't know much about the banding issue, but if as per the OP of the tepee image, this is just 'one image in thousands', then is it that a huge problem? Would it not be easily taken care of by reverting to the mechanical shutter, especially since the A7RII shutter sound is so much less intrusive than its predecessor?
I am not likely to utilize the camera in such settings, and especially not professionally since I am not a pro. I can see though how it could be very important for wedding/concert photographers. I don't know much about the banding issue, but if as per the OP of the tepee image, this is just 'one image in thousands', then is it that a huge problem? Would it not be easily taken care of by reverting to the mechanical shutter, especially since the A7RII shutter sound is so much less intrusive than its predecessor?
Zlatko Batistich
New member
That first pic shows a big problem — very strange — although it doesn't appear to be related to mixed lighting. I wonder what caused that? The fluorescent lighting problem shown in the other pics affects all digital cameras at shutter speeds above 1/60th or so due to the cycling of the lights. As far as I know, only Canon's 7D2 and 5Ds/sR have an anti-flicker feature designed to time the shutter precisely in a way that avoids the fluorescent lighting banding even at higher shutter speeds.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Event work I really shoot mostly at 1/60 or below with a flash. But I have seen this before with other cams as well. Not sure you can do much about it. It's a timing recycle issue with those lights.
I agree I really wonder whether this 'one in a thousand' error is even related to the silent shutter and certainly not the mixed lighting. I know that effect in my shots is down to the cycle time of the lighting
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Could even be the SD card or the SD reader which I have seen screw up images before. Like to see more samples to find to the source or it could be just a electronic glitch. Hard to say
I can see in some applications this would definitely be a issue and for those who shoot in this environment would feel this was a deal breaker. I, like Guy, have seen the condition like the lower pics and it is just a matter of changing the shutter speed till you don't see this effect in your EVF (EVF a huge advantage here with this situation). The one studio I shoot in has flor daylight lights behind a diffuser for its product setup and 60 cycle banding has to be taken into account when setting up to shoot.
The other issues like noise/hot pixels when turning off LENR(which was designed to counter these items because it was a known digital sensor issue) and losing DR after 70 continuous 30 sec exposures in a row to me are just conditions that are beyond the normal design intent of the camera. Temp shutdown after 20 minutes of continuous 4k video with a camera of this type is a spec I am not familiar with and don't know if this is within its spec parameters. I would think that the camera was designed more for stills and shooting short video clips than filming say a hockey game like a real video only camera. But that is just my opinion. Personally, my a7rII will never shoot 1 second worth of video, never shoot silent shutter (because I avoid people photos like the plague and my jetties and waves are not shutter noise sensitive), and if I shot astrophotography and was able to show the milky way here in the mid-atlantic region of the USA no one would believe it wasn't fake anyway as we can barely see stars at all in our night skies here :grin: (but if astrophotography was my thing I guess these issues would be a deal breaker).
Once again... no camera does everything the best and one has to buy or not according to needs and wants.
The other issues like noise/hot pixels when turning off LENR(which was designed to counter these items because it was a known digital sensor issue) and losing DR after 70 continuous 30 sec exposures in a row to me are just conditions that are beyond the normal design intent of the camera. Temp shutdown after 20 minutes of continuous 4k video with a camera of this type is a spec I am not familiar with and don't know if this is within its spec parameters. I would think that the camera was designed more for stills and shooting short video clips than filming say a hockey game like a real video only camera. But that is just my opinion. Personally, my a7rII will never shoot 1 second worth of video, never shoot silent shutter (because I avoid people photos like the plague and my jetties and waves are not shutter noise sensitive), and if I shot astrophotography and was able to show the milky way here in the mid-atlantic region of the USA no one would believe it wasn't fake anyway as we can barely see stars at all in our night skies here :grin: (but if astrophotography was my thing I guess these issues would be a deal breaker).
Once again... no camera does everything the best and one has to buy or not according to needs and wants.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Have not even tried video yet but to address the overheating issue. But in my mind that is designed to cut off after a certain period of time to protect the sensor and overheating. We need to remember this is a very compact camera and with all the electronics heat will build up fast. Like Phase backs when doing long exposures the heat will create noise. My guess Sony is doing this intentional to protect from overheating which will not only create noise but could damage the circuitry . They certainly do this with there flash units to cut off if it's going to overheat to protect itself. Obviously this answer needs to come from Sony itself but I would bet a dozen donuts on this being the answer.
I guess the real question is this Are we expecting too much. Maybe , maybe not. I understand some of the dilemma with some folks reaction to these things but on the other hand when I bought a 50k dollar back , I did not get dancing girls to go with it either. I'm joking of course but heck I got really nothing for that 50k except a very expensive sensor in a little box.
All relative of course but sometimes consumers think for 3200 dollars it should take out the garbage too. Yes we should get our monies worth but honestly I felt more ripped off by the A7r given its issues. Obviously we all have opinions on this and myself I expect some issues to pop up, now Sony needs to update firmware more frequently and pay attention to some of these complaints or issues that are obvious problems. That's what firmware is for and other OEMS are far better at this than Sony. They need to change this
I guess the real question is this Are we expecting too much. Maybe , maybe not. I understand some of the dilemma with some folks reaction to these things but on the other hand when I bought a 50k dollar back , I did not get dancing girls to go with it either. I'm joking of course but heck I got really nothing for that 50k except a very expensive sensor in a little box.
All relative of course but sometimes consumers think for 3200 dollars it should take out the garbage too. Yes we should get our monies worth but honestly I felt more ripped off by the A7r given its issues. Obviously we all have opinions on this and myself I expect some issues to pop up, now Sony needs to update firmware more frequently and pay attention to some of these complaints or issues that are obvious problems. That's what firmware is for and other OEMS are far better at this than Sony. They need to change this
Maybe they all need to be emailing Sony about any 'real' issues as I remember doing when there was the problem with IBIS not kicking in with adapted lenses when the A7II came out and they sorted it pretty quickly. If I remember rightly there are a couple of forum members who have some direct access into Sony in the US. On the whole though the lack of firmware improvements is my biggest gripe with Sony, fuji have shown the way in this area
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
The question becomes what are the real definitive issues at hand. On one hand we have real issues brought up by folks with the experience to find them and Identify them ( question is who the hell are they as they all have already screwed this up with Canon lenses for example) than you got the whiners that look for stuff , they Canon/nikon folks that are just flat out jealous for some odd reason and than you got I just hate Sony folks. Problem is finding the right set of folks that are neutral on all issues , smart enough to find them and actually know it is a issue. Than you have reviewers that you question there ethics because they are getting paid or whatever. This is a vicious circle of mistrust, experience and so on and so forth. Seriously I look at every review with a huge question mark on this release. Reason I am not going to do one, I'm not putting my reputation on the line and be put in this **** up of a release.
Ill hang here with my friends. lol
Ill hang here with my friends. lol
Chris Giles
New member
Meanwhile at Sony HQ:
House point for anyone who gets the reference. :ROTFL:
House point for anyone who gets the reference. :ROTFL:
I am not sure what the REAL ISSUE's are? Is it a real issue to expect a camera to perform beyond a reasonable design intent engineering limit. Or that it performs flawlessly on the extreme limits of its specs? Or that it performs flawlessly as a so called pro level still camera as well as a so called pro level video camera without compromises? (whatever PRO Camera means)
I have not seen one REAL ISSUE that would stop a paid professional or average user from using this camera within the bounds of typical daily requirements of a still camera in day to day photographic assignments demanding excellent IQ at large print quality levels. I have seen issues identified at the extremes in usage but none in 99.9% of typical applications for a camera such as this. Sure it won't do network quality 4K video for a 9 inning ball game and it won't shoot 70 continuous 30 sec exposures without showing DR deterioration issues ........ I feel this is just asking far too much for any handheld camera to do flawlessly no matter how advanced the technology is today.
Maybe the next model will have a cool can cooling system on it you can wear as a backpack while manipulating this little body on a steady cam mount with directional microphones, monitors, and aux sound, and aux video recorder units with a pocket full of SD cards and batteries and do next years Met's game from start to finish. :banghead:
I have not seen one REAL ISSUE that would stop a paid professional or average user from using this camera within the bounds of typical daily requirements of a still camera in day to day photographic assignments demanding excellent IQ at large print quality levels. I have seen issues identified at the extremes in usage but none in 99.9% of typical applications for a camera such as this. Sure it won't do network quality 4K video for a 9 inning ball game and it won't shoot 70 continuous 30 sec exposures without showing DR deterioration issues ........ I feel this is just asking far too much for any handheld camera to do flawlessly no matter how advanced the technology is today.
Maybe the next model will have a cool can cooling system on it you can wear as a backpack while manipulating this little body on a steady cam mount with directional microphones, monitors, and aux sound, and aux video recorder units with a pocket full of SD cards and batteries and do next years Met's game from start to finish. :banghead: