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So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

Jim DE

New member
Maybe they're just holding back a few capabilities to help sell folks on the next upgrade cycle.
Could be quite possible Amin...... These major corporations do everything with profit in mind unless forced to do things for other reasons like customer demands or OSHA, etc....
 

Jim DE

New member
Fair enough, Jim.

So far, whatever improvements I wanted (those have been voiced loudly and repeatedly) have been met.

It only works when concerns are aired and that does not make one an enemy of the system. :)
I agree Vivek....... no system is perfect and everything can be improved.... my point was I see this as a specific a7rII complaint all over the web like it was a surprise to those who bought the product and now they want to complain about it. It is manufacturer specific not just a specific product or model and a know spec going in. It is what it is and should not be considered a defect, but a change one might hope for.

Vivek, you know me... I am far from a fanboy for anything.... I just like a division between things that need or we would like improvement and true product defects.... these long exposure hotspots might be a true defect but the RAW files are not for example. The RAW files are a "wish" or "would like instead" item. Guess it is the old manufacturing management mentality coming out in me...... design intend is rarely ever considered a defect if it does as it was designed to do. :)
 
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Vivek

Guest
Jim, Part of that is due to the elevated expectations before the camera came out- that it will be a do it all.

Me, i am looking forward to that A6000 successor and hoping that it will have a full swivel LCD. :)
 

spence

New member
My opinion is that if you're buying the A7RII and expect lossless RAW to be introduced later with a firmware update, you may end up disappointed. Sony does not have the best track record in that regard.

However, that doesn't mean that those of us who appreciate and desire that feature cannot ask for it. We have every right to do so, and to support that request with evidence showing why it matters. This is, after all, how products get better. They are not developed in a vacuum.

Sony's statements have been encouraging; the director of their mirrorless division says that lossless RAW would be a software (firmware) fix, that there's nothing baked into the hardware making it impossible, and that they're looking into it. That along with the release of the A7RII has fanned the fires, and the number of people asking for it seems to be reaching critical mass.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think we would all like to see lossy compression be it effects your work or not. I really have not run into the problem but I do want it fixed. I think that's the bottom line regardless . Fix it
 

Jim DE

New member
Joe and Guy, I am not arguing against lossless RAW files just that in a thread named "Is it a keeper? (a7rII)" that is is not a item that was not a known condition going in so it would not be a camera body specific for keeping it or not. Now it could be a item to some as to IF they currently would buy a Sony body or not regardless of the model.

Hey I will take any improvement I can get whether lossless RAW or any other improved innovations. ;)

Joe if I came across as being argumentative with you I apologize because that was not my intent. My intent was more a discussion about whether lossless RAW is a product specific defect or just a item one would enjoy having for whatever reason. Just before my post I was reading a thread on another forum with items that were listed as a7rII issues and honestly 90% of the items listed were imo not defects/issues but in reality known conditions going in, user error, or misinformation that through post after post after post have to some become a false reality of a manufacturing defect or flaw rather than the true reality of the issues. I guess I cam into this thread with my post this morning still perking over what I had read earlier on another forum.

Joe, I will be happy if Sony listens and offers lossless RAW files either for existing bodies as a firmware or future products. I can't say I have had a issue with the current Sony RAW file type but I have not used a current lossless RAW file from anyone else either. If I don't know it can't hurt me ;)
 

ebbtide

New member
Analogue like. :^) One thing that has ruined some images I have seen of digital is the sharp cut off from in focus subject to out of focus if the depth of field is shallow. It looks like someone cut the in focus image out and pasted it onto the photo. I think this has to do with films make-up using silver for most of it. There is a graduation and change due to the nature of what is going on, due to the splattering or diffusion of light as it goes through the emulsion. With digital, much of the time, there is a little but it hits the sensor and while some is detracted, it tends to cut right through and the line of demarcation is obvious. I think with the Sony with the sensor they are using, especially the current one in the A7RII, you are getting back to the very subtle graduation of change, which to my eye, is more natural and what I would call analogue like. IMO.
Yes! I have thought about this a fair amount. I'm making up terms here, but I call it "digital roll-off" but maybe "digital cut-off" would be more appropriate. When I moved from the Canon 70-200 2.8 i to the ii version, the lens and sharpness was so much better, but I had a lot of shots where you would get that digital roll-off effect in a very pronounced way-- worse than with the i version. It was obvious on screen, but really jumped out at me with large prints. It didn't seem to bother others too much but it did/does bother me. It's sort of like that video effect they do in After Effects where they separate out items-- or at the most extreme, like paper cut-outs. In some photos, there is no sense of depth exactly- more like two different planes.

I guess I don't understand it well because the effect was worse with the ii version even though that lens was much better/sharper. So it got me thinking that maybe that organic depth of field and actual "roll-off" as opposed to cut-off was softness or flaws in film or other lenses; but I don't think that's correct. I think you may be right about the a7rii somehow being better with this. It's too early to say but I plan on shooting with the 70-200 2.8 ii over the coming week and will think about this . . . Make any sense?

Regardless, back to the original topic, I now have an a7rii (and a7s) and it's early, but I think it's pretty amazing. For background, I tried out the original a7r many times and tried to love it. I saw the great work that people were doing here and knew it was very capable, but I just couldn't get "there" to gel with it-- speed of operation, focus, feel, and shutter sound . . . I don't have that feeling at all with the a7rii.

Downsides? The only thing I don't like about it thus far is the EVF. It may be me or maybe I'm missing a setting, but it almost looks very marginally worse to me than the EVF on the a7s. Am I off my rocker on that one? Need more time . . . Nitpicking, but I'm wondering why the new charger is larger and is binary as opposed to showing degree of charge(light on or off as opposed to the gradual three green lights for the charger on the a7s (yes it's a nitpick and I don't really care)).

Oh yeah. I'm still not a brilliant photographer, can't dunk a basketball, and can't play the cello. I blame the camera for all of this . . .
 

Knorp

Well-known member
It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
Paid € 2300 for the A7R and € 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ... :loco:
 

Jim DE

New member
Jim, Part of that is due to the elevated expectations before the camera came out- that it will be a do it all.

Me, i am looking forward to that A6000 successor and hoping that it will have a full swivel LCD. :)
Vivek, I am sure you are right about inflated expectations but correct me if I am wrong in that Sony did not make these inflated expectations happen but most likely from people fantasies and confusing wish lists and factual specs. I looked at the advertised specs and knew going in what I was spending my money on and how this tool suited my current needs and wants. Granted my list was small and could be easily achieved as all I wanted was to upgrade my hike in scenic system (which was a NEX7 and backpack of glass) with this body and some specific lens choices both OEM and legacy. I made a list, checked it twice, and have to date not been disappointed by anything with the new systems performance.

I was not looking for it to be the "be all end all" to all other camera/ systems for all existing genre. I have other camera's and system's to cover the other needs and wants I have in all other applications and genre. I have never found a camera/system that can do everything better than any other camera/ system can made in every genre. It just does not exist and imo not one camera/system even comes close to this criteria.. We each have to set our needs and wants as specifically as possible then find the camera/system that bests suits these needs and wants. Camera/systems are compromises and we can feel lucky if we buy the right one for the majority of our needs and wants. :) For my specific needs and wants that I bought this camera specifically for I can say without a doubt for me it is a keeper :)
 
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Vivek

Guest
It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
Paid € 2300 for the A7R and € 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ... :loco:
It is steep but would you have said the same about the M9, Bart?
 

Jim DE

New member
It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
Paid € 2300 for the A7R and € 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ... :loco:
Bart I can appreciate your point and I do not know your currency conversion to USD but the list on my a7rII was $3199 I was charged $2785 through Sony USA after paying list for a vertical grip and two batteries that I needed anyway. That was less than I paid for my a99 when it was released. I think the a7r was around $2300 wasn't it when it was released new? If so then I paid about $500 more for a body with IBIS, 42mp, and all the other improvements. Pricey but not a absurd difference.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
It is steep but would you have said the same about the M9, Bart?
Sony is dirt cheap actually it's cheaper than dirt compared to Leica for what a 2 to 3 percent gain maybe back than, not now though. they need to rethink there product line.


Btw this is my end all together all. It's all I have. Lol
 
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Vivek

Guest
Jim, no disagreement there at all. I am vry happy using my A7UV, A7s, and my NEX5N monochrome. Too much gear. Way too much. :facesmack:

However, if Sony were to offer a monochrome camera tomorrow, I will buy it immediately.
 

jrp

Member
...New and current DSLR users are migrating to mirrorless cameras and smartphones as those tools become more capable. Witness what's happened with video. Even news media pros use smartphones and tablets nowadays to capture video. "The times they are a changin'".
The adage that the best camera is the one that you have with you illustrates the truth to which to allude. Content is King. If you can get a report out with a single person, that will always win over the report that you don't get out because you can't afford 3 people.

Similarly, the Sony may have all sorts of corner case quirks, but is no different from any other product and, once you understand its limitations and develop a suitable workflow, the A7r II will deliver (because it is portable and capable).

I have a DSLR and rangefinder system, which also have their (different) limitations, but the Sony is the most capable for the weight and bulk.
 

Chris Giles

New member
I know I share a forums with Arca Swiss, Blad and Phase users but compared to say the 5DSr which is about the same price I don't think it's premium enough to justify the cost.

IBIS and tilt screen considered too, but I'd only expect this camera to last year in my hands. If that. :ROTFL:
 

Knorp

Well-known member
It is steep but would you have said the same about the M9, Bart?
Hi Vivek, presumably yes - BUT at least we got full frame.
Now I'm puzzled what exactly justifies the price increase.
However, still love me A7R2 ... :p

Kind regards.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
Bart I can appreciate your point and I do not know your currency conversion to USD but the list on my a7rII was $3199 I was charged $2785 through Sony USA after paying list for a vertical grip and two batteries that I needed anyway. That was less than I paid for my a99 when it was released. I think the a7r was around $2300 wasn't it when it was released new? If so then I paid about $500 more for a body with IBIS, 42mp, and all the other improvements. Pricey but not a absurd difference.
Hi there Jim,

apparently you've got yourself a great deal. No denying that, so well done and I'm happy for you :)
However, we poor sods in Eurodisney have to pay the full monty including all taxes known to mankind - as usual it seems :rolleyes:

All the very best.
 
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