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Seeing any Posterization issues with A7r ll?

jpaulmoore

Active member
Now this is getting interesting :) It would seem that the Sony A7r ll sensor (being Sony's latest sensor design) should be as good or better than the Nikon 810 sensor. If this is not the case, why? Is compression the issue?
J. Paul
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
We all know that Sony uses lossy compression so Im not sure why we're surprised when sometimes the cost of that becomes evident. Clearly the files can't be as good as those from a D810 - they contain less information.
Bingo... Hit the nail on the head. The other issue may be 12bit, though IDK if this is the case, but I suspect it is. Sony best wake up and smell the coffee -- lossy compression is just plain stupid in today's world with cheap storage space. Don't get me wrong, it should be offered as an option for users that want it, but right alongside the option to use full lossless 14bit...

My .02
 
V

Vivek

Guest
We all know that Sony uses lossy compression so Im not sure why we're surprised when sometimes the cost of that becomes evident. Clearly the files can't be as good as those from a D810 - they contain less information.
Could you show comparison shots to illustrate that is the case and why would it only show "sometimes"?

Thanks!
 

Amin

Active member
Nope, it's an ARW file. I have written and asked him to try it in C1 or to let me have the original file via dropbox so I can try it.
It's an ARW file, but he's showing us a JPEG. Apparently a JPEG generated with level 8 quality. I'm surprised he'd go lower than 10 for this kind of scrutiny.
 

Amin

Active member
Bingo... Hit the nail on the head. The other issue may be 12bit, though IDK if this is the case, but I suspect it is. Sony best wake up and smell the coffee -- lossy compression is just plain stupid in today's world with cheap storage space. Don't get me wrong, it should be offered as an option for users that want it, but right alongside the option to use full lossless 14bit...

My .02

I have no quarrel with wanting lossless, but that's a separate issue from Lloyd's posterization. It's hard for me to believe that this horrendous result Lloyd is showing represents a real phenomenon with the A7RII. I'm shooting mine every day in all kinds of conditions and have not seen anything even slightly reminscent of what he's shown with that pic of his daughter.

Will be very interesting to see if Lloyd makes his RAW file available.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have no quarrel with wanting lossless, but that's a separate issue from Lloyd's posterization. It's hard for me to believe that this horrendous result Lloyd is showing represents a real phenomenon with the A7RII. I'm shooting mine every day in all kinds of conditions and have not seen anything even slightly reminscent of what he's shown with that pic of his daughter.
Bingo bingo bingo. It's a absolute witch hunt. I'm heading out to go shoot in Jerome. This is really getting old and boring. Sure I want lossless but the effects on what Sony is doing are very very small effecting the files. And only in certain situations. I'm just going to say it **** it. I dont trust what I'm seeing. Enough said

I just changed the name on my camera with a sharpie it now reads 8ony. Wow is this thing amazing
 

tn1krr

New member
Could you show comparison shots to illustrate that is the case and why would it only show "sometimes"?
If one understands the compression algorithm used it is quite clear why it only shows sometimes. For example original star trail artefacts need very very specific high contrast edges to appear: bright enough star trails with a background that makes the artefacting show.

Like RAWDigger article on this says: "For a larger span, the scheme does introduce the rounding error, which may lead to posterization. In other words, if the chunk of 32 pixels spans across an area that contains a large variation in brightness, the data in the block is not exact, but is only an approximation."

Compression blocks that contain star trails have huge data span, bright trail on darkish background ==> lots of approximation/rounding errors that show very clearly if pushed.

In Lloyds example take compression looks to cause different problems, but root cause seems to be the same. Not enough different values available to draw nice patterns over a huge area. Like said, big percentage of each color channels 10M pixels are picked from more more than 30 or so luminance values. The value distributions in the histogram look bad. Not a fun case for demosaic algorithm.

I have propably 35000+ pics on the different E Mount cameras in over 4 years and I have had single incident of compressed RAW behaving really badly. But I'm a M. Sc. in Computer Science and now that I have studied the compressed algorithm enough I have no issue understanding why it would fail quite badly when certain stars align badly.
 

eleanorbrown

New member
Could Sony give us a lossless compression with a simple software update? That would be ideal. Eleanor

Bingo... Hit the nail on the head. The other issue may be 12bit, though IDK if this is the case, but I suspect it is. Sony best wake up and smell the coffee -- lossy compression is just plain stupid in today's world with cheap storage space. Don't get me wrong, it should be offered as an option for users that want it, but right alongside the option to use full lossless 14bit...

My .02
 
V

Vivek

Guest
tn, Thanks for your attempt to explain it. Would have made sense better if the D810 with no compression was used at the same location to say that it does not happen with it but only with the A7rII.

Trust me that I do not want to go back to the dark ages of a DSLR but would like the Sony cams to improve if this is true. :)
 

tn1krr

New member
tn, Thanks for your attempt to explain it. Would have made sense better if the D810 with no compression was used at the same location to say that it does not happen with it but only with the A7rII.
It would indeed be very nice to have even one example of comparison shots made, but since the issues tend to only become visible when one is sitting in front a computer with lot miles and hours separated from exact conditions that made the issues surface.

To simplify it a bit (a lot actually): A D810 has minimum of 2x more different colored pens to paint any surface area. Sometime the lack of pens shows.

I love my A7R II, I'm shooting more than ever (I think I already have over 4000 shots on this one) and nailing shots that would not be possible with any other camera. Yet I have no issue with these discussions about the problems, would love to have lossless RAW and get rid of hot pixel issues. Sony gave ( well sold ;) ) us a brilliant camera, but I gave them a lot of money so I'm not giving them extended vacation to sit on the issues. Although to me it looks more and more that the issue is in the Bionz-series processing chip; it is the only common variable with all the EVF-equipped Sony system cameras. Why an earth would a new camera with a sensor that has multiple times faster readout speeds still drop in to 12-bit mode same way as a way older model with an older generation sensor..
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Could you show comparison shots to illustrate that is the case and why would it only show "sometimes"?

Thanks!
Nope, that's why I've asked Lloyd for his file.

I do notice the 'orange peel' a lot, though.

I once had a similar 'horrible water' look from some Oly MFT camera shot in RAW. Never seen it on the D810 or D800 OR any of my Sony cams but then it does take very particular conditions to make it happen, or so it would seem.

Why don't we all hold fire until we see if Lloyd will share is RAW file?

Just to be clear, because I can see that my post above has raised some incipient ire (apart from with Jack): I am really quite certain that the files at, say ISO 100 are not as 'good' as from the Nikon. They have Orange Peel and they break apart more quickly under PP pressure. There is more shadow noise, possibly, and I have seen nasty single pixel noise at higher ISO but so far only in badly taken frames that didn't matter. So AFAIAC the camera stays because its' faults will show rarely and it has a host of other things going for it which are really great. But I do believe that the 12 bit/lossy compression thing will matter sometimes. Really, I think that is pretty clear. There is no free lunch and Lloyd's RAWdigger histos, taken from the RAW file (obviously) tell it the way it is.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
It would indeed be very nice to have even one example of comparison shots made, but since the issues tend to only become visible when one is sitting in front a computer with lot miles and hours separated from exact conditions that made the issues surface.
A direct comparison to show it happens with A7RII and not with S810 is all I look forward to. :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Tim looking all over the web it is painfully obvious AcR and LR are doing a **** job on this camera. No one using C1 is seeing anything but awesome looking files. Every forum every thread I'm reading the same thing everywhere. Like using it or not or even hate it. No one is complaining about the files using C1. ACR is about the worst raw processing engine there is. Not sure what the bottom line issue is with ACR but everything suspect has come out of a AcR or Lr processing. Not a dig but I don't get it.

im laughing at the Nikon comment too but I'm no fanboy of anything. So I really don't give a load. Nikon owners want to believe that with the older sensor good on them. Sony certainly needs to fix some of the compression issues and use lossy raw but that has showed up in astro photography which works out to be .01 percent of its usage. Hardly devastating

A lot of over the top comments lately and seriously watch where some of this is coming from. Don't be naive these folks are making money in Sony faults
I'm gone with this witch hunt lately. I'm going to do what I do best in life, go shoot and try to be happy with my life.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Nope, that's why I've asked Lloyd for his file.
If you have not seen it, your earlier post was a projection based on one blog post?

*If* this is true (lossy files making a mess) it saves me a lot of cash. I am still not buying the nikon DSLRs though. So, additional savings on top of that. :D
 

Amin

Active member
Tim looking all over the web it is painfully obvious AcR and LR are doing a **** job on this camera. No one using C1 is seeing anything but awesome looking files.
Yep, I made the same RAW file I shared above available in a DPR thread. Someone there processed it in ACR using the settings from Lloyd's EXIF - bam, orange peels. My C1-processed file had more apparent detail, less apparent noise, and no kind of fruit texture whatsoever.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I'm trying to imagine why Lloyd might not share his raw file.

Only thing I can come up with is not nice.

Cheers, Monty:(
I can't say that I've ever heard of a camera that Lloyd didn't have a problem with and controversial comments about. Strange how that attracts people to his web site as result isn't it?

It kind of reminds me of that other fella out there ... Ken somebody or other ...

/cynical mode off
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Sony can easily avoid this discussion by supporting 14 bit lossless compression in their cameras.
That would be the end of this unfortunate discussion.
Athough Adobe's software doesn't seem as good in raw conversion as others, Sony would benefit if their files behaved well with it.
Of course, Mr. Chambers seems to be pushing the envelope because that is in his financial interest. So what?
I think the sooner Sony corrects their approach the better.

My A7RII is scheduled to arrive later today and I will enjoy it regardless!!! :)
I also use my D800E and I hear clearly what Tim Ashley has pointed out.
 
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