The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Where does an 800 lb gorilla sit in a room with no mirrors?

f/otographer

New member
Apparently, quietly in the corner. Or even not at all. Which are not the traditional answers to this question.

I would like to discuss the 800lb gorilla that is not in the room. And by this I mean the seeming overwhelming reluctance of Canon to enter into the mirrorless market in any type of serious manner. The lackluster M/M2/M3 jokes notwithstanding.

Now you may think I am a bit silly to be posting a Canon question in the Sony forum but wait. There is method to the madness. For one thing I want to get the opinions of a serious cross section of mirrorless users who are experienced with this new technology and have shown themselves capable of producing beautiful art with it. That would be the majority of the Sony users here. For another, the Canon part of this forum gets very little play and I don't feel the answers from that forum alone would be as insightful or as well rounded as I am looking for.

I have actually been pondering Canons lack of seriousness concerning mirrorless cameras for some time now. I really love Canon as a company and have been anxiously awaiting for them to release a new from the ground up, kick *** mirrorless camera for some time now. A camera system that would compete head to head with the ever strengthening onslaught that is the a7 line. But month after month, year after year there is seeming apathy on the part of Big Red.

Then a few days ago the new hits. Canon is coming out with (soon) a 120mp DSLR. That's right....120mp. DSLR.

Now at first I wanted to praise Canon a little bit for having the balls to so greatly leap ahead in the MP war with both feet first. But as the news has sunk in over the last few days and I have really thought about it and there is something very much wrong with this.

Here's the problem. For Canon to seriously enter the mirrorless market with a new, professional quality mirrorless camera they are going to have to do something that they simply wont do. They are going to have to give up their current dominance of their lens line (think all those hundreds of EOS lenses) and start over with a new mount and a new line of lenses like everyone else has done. And the very thought of that is probably giving them fits. The sheer amount of R/D which will need to be spent to bring them up to even a fraction of their current lens choices might not even be in the company budget with the way the economy has been going.

So what is an 800lb gorilla to do to stay relevant against the stronger and stronger oncoming tide of Fuji X's and Sony Alphas? What can they possibly do save their treasured DSLR's and the total lens dominance they now have in their hand.

Why, they simply need to come up with a new sensor for the old camera and give it some stoopid amount of megapixels. Say around 120 or so. That should do it.

Im sorry, but I see this a Canons complete misreading of the next decade of camera design. Mirrorless is here to stay, DSLR's are anachronistic machines that are on the way out. Will they hang around for several more years in a last gasp of life? Yes, I truly believe they will. There are to many pros still using them and to be honest they do get the job done. But the problem is that DSLR have basically matured as a platform. Whereas mirrorless is just at the beginning of its development cycle and has decades or research and advancements ahead of it. EVF's will get better and better, auto focus systems will mature, etc etc.

I think that Canon has blinders on and really believes that they can pull out this dog and pony show of 150mp while smiling and saying "See world, look at how cool DSLR's are. They are all the camera you will ever need". It is so much easier to do this then it is to actually sit down and design a new camera with a new set of lenses. The danger in being this moribund is that you will alienate your userbase by not having interesting and fresh new designs like the competition does.

And, on a technical side, have they considered what the 220mb files that this new camera produces are going to be like to work with? My god, the memory cards alone.....And lets not forget how even now high end machines can struggle with photo processing. Imagine the computing power you will need on your desk to work with files of this size. I have also read an interesting article suggesting that with such a high MP count diffraction is going to raise its ugly head much earlier in the aperture range then normal. Like say, around f/4. I seriously don't think Canon has thought this thru all the way.

Anyway, I would really like to hear everyones thoughts on Canon and their reluctance to produce a serious mirrorless camera. Again, I don't mean the M3. I mean getting serious about maturing a mirrorless camera line which has all the perks, designs and expectations of a professional level camera. Much like what Sony seems to be doing with the a7 line.

There is no reason that Canon cannot go head to head with Sony in this market. They are simply choosing not to.

Lets hear what you think.
 
Last edited:

Chris Giles

New member
Canon user here.

I've no desire for mirrorless. None. The times I did briefly use the Sony's I wasn't impressed and once you add some decent lenses, native or otherwise there is much less of a weight advantage than you'd think.

When I've shot weddings with other photographers who use mirrorless they do a much better job with a DSLR. One guy I work with uses a D750, a7s and a7rii and the D750 images are much better composed and emotional. To the point I've asked him to use that from now on. I put this down to the machine between the shooter and the photo.

Perhaps Canon knows and understands this. There is the M series which is mirrorless but it's not something they're pushing or trying to push right now. Don't confuse the Sony noise with actual noise. Any professionals I know who use the A7 series tend not to rave about it and I fully expect them to do back to full OVF over the next 6 months to two years.

But also cost. Irrespective of the cost to market a whole new lens line up and develop the thing, Canon also has to have a viable marketplace in a time when camera sales are way down. Maybe Sony isn't scalping the market, perhaps they really need to charge that much for the A7 series. They aren't the most profitable company in the world after all.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
But what if this 150MP super sensor is the gorilla's "all singing all dancing" answer ?
Suppose it is as good as the orang-utang's latest BSI sensor ?

Well ?

:watch:
 

Tim

Active member
Where is Jorgen when you need him? :poke:

IMO I believe you only really need three maybe four lenses to launch a new mount.
The Contax G proved this. 28/45/90. The Mamiya 6 and 7 also. While the Bronica 645RF was no raging success it did also launch with three.
Even the Fuji X mount didn't have many on launch. Anyone recall?

From what lens history I know, a single talented lens designer can get the lens design job done. Its the manufacturing engineers that probably need a department.

So Canon with its muscle can do it, but the issue for a Canon mirror less to succeed is up to the marketing department listening to the customer.
They also have to consider IF they want to poach their own DSLR sales. Maybe there is little incentive to this while DSLR sales are good.
 

Chris Giles

New member
One of best ways to innovate is to keep improving the same stuff while everyone is doing the same 'new thing' elsewhere.
 

dandrewk

New member
Indeed, I have noticed all sorts of innovation coming from Canon. It's really a technological achievement to make virtually no "improvements" to a camera, slap a different number on it and still get folks to believe it's "new". :roll eyes:

There is no mystery to the method of Canon's antiquated marketing strategy. We've seen it before. It is virtually identical to the US auto industry in the early 70's. Sit, twiddle thumbs, keep producing slick ads and depend on the loyalty of users who are deeply rooted in their ecosystem. We saw what happened in the 70's, and the same will happen here.

Nikon isn't much better. The longer they sit and wait, the more mirrorless makers will steal market share. If they don't develop something real quick, they are in danger of becoming sad examples of arrogant management.
 

Chris Giles

New member
Indeed, I have noticed all sorts of innovation coming from Canon. It's really a technological achievement to make virtually no "improvements" to a camera, slap a different number on it and still get folks to believe it's "new". :roll eyes:

There is no mystery to the method of Canon's antiquated marketing strategy. We've seen it before. It is virtually identical to the US auto industry in the early 70's. Sit, twiddle thumbs, keep producing slick ads and depend on the loyalty of users who are deeply rooted in their ecosystem. We saw what happened in the 70's, and the same will happen here.

Nikon isn't much better. The longer they sit and wait, the more mirrorless makers will steal market share. If they don't develop something real quick, they are in danger of becoming sad examples of arrogant management.
:rolleyes:

Why isn't Canon doing the same as everyone else?

A - Because that would be stupid.
 

dandrewk

New member
Yes, but they ARE doing the same thing as everyone else, and they've been doing it for decades. In fact, I can't think of a single thing they've done recently that has already been done thousands of times before.

They need to wake up or they will become "the camera my Dad used". Photography is like not unlike any other industry/profession/hobby. You change with the times or become a dinosaur. From looking at recent market trends, their ship is in the harbor, waiting to sail into the land of irrelevancy.

That's it, I'm all out of metaphors. :)
 

CSP

New member
Indeed, I have noticed all sorts of innovation coming from Canon. It's really a technological achievement to make virtually no "improvements" to a camera, slap a different number on it and still get folks to believe it's "new". :roll eyes:

There is no mystery to the method of Canon's antiquated marketing strategy. We've seen it before. It is virtually identical to the US auto industry in the early 70's. Sit, twiddle thumbs, keep producing slick ads and depend on the loyalty of users who are deeply rooted in their ecosystem. We saw what happened in the 70's, and the same will happen here.

Nikon isn't much better. The longer they sit and wait, the more mirrorless makers will steal market share. If they don't develop something real quick, they are in danger of becoming sad examples of arrogant management.
i more than agree ! canon is a deaf and ignorant company . i never every had the feeling that they are interested in others opinion or feedback. the only care how many white lenses you can see at a sport event. the rest of professionals are treaded like second class user. i really hoped that when canon finally offers a high mp camera they will also have adequate lenses in their line up but this also didn´t happen. in europe canon is in deep trouble, sales had broken down 30% and more in some countries but this does not change their attitude.
 

CSP

New member
One of best ways to innovate is to keep improving the same stuff while everyone is doing the same 'new thing' elsewhere.
from wiki :


Innovation is a new idea, more effective device or process.[1] Innovation can be viewed as the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, inarticulated needs, or existing market needs.[2] This is accomplished through more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term innovation can be defined as something original and more effective and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society.[3]


so how does this apply for canon ?
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Since I'm on forums, I always seen people bashing Canon. I'm Nikon user because I started with Nikon and I'm used to the OVF and the ergonomic. In the other hand, I really want to jump on Canon camp because of the lenses. I never ETTR my shots (and I do not think I'm a crappy photographer IMHO ;p) and prefer contrasts. This whole Dynamic Range drama ppl are putting on Canon shoulder is more and more ridiculous. The more I get knowledge the more it look ridiculous. I envy a lot of canon lenses, TS, f1.2 with AF, awesome 135... and the actual cameras are just superbly balanced. If ppl want more DR out of a canon sensor, they bracket. Super video, very good sensor, very good colours, true 14 bit raws and, most importantly, very good price !! compared to today sony offering :D ... no, it is not funny.

I also like to share my work. If I go canon I will be very alone on forums; maybe not on FM but here it is dead.

Concerning mirrorless cameras ... I do not really care about it. The only Mirrorless camera I find attractive is the old RX1, if you forget the initial price :p This was the bait from Sony. "Look what we can do !!! look how it is refined, solid, a real achievement...". Some PPL bought it, got dazzled because yes, the RX1 is that good, seen the A7 announcement, took the bait (really ?? ^^), sold the RX1 to go A7 and then regret having sold the RX1 because A7 is nowhere near in therm of quality, at all level. Now they are on a system, bought other iterations of this gadget mirrorless platform, blogers/salesmen jumped in the wagon now it is mandatory to have a mirrorless because it is the future of photography and you are NOT COOL if you do not shoot this way. You are a dinosaur.

I said I understand ppl who got the A7r / A7rII to use it as a very advanced digital back. At this level, yes, it is awesome, very useful, yielding more consistent results especially in landscape. Hopefully, photography is not only landscape (tanks God !!) so this argument is a niche argument. MF still the king of the field.

Concerning the 120MP canon sensor, if it is real one day, it will be somehow a game changer in the way we see photos. It will be a game changer with their new printers and inks because you'll go almost real even in prints. 120MP is close to human eye definition. If you have the options for HIGH, MED and lOW, it's ok, and it will be very cool. If some continue to trust that the key is in ISO and DR ... that's ok. This is not my opinion.

My opinion about weight (size isn't a problem, after all) is that some ppl really don't like weight. For them, one Kilo of gear is too much (but yet they like new Milvus offering !! WTF ???? ^^). The key is in the materials. Canon and Nikon do have some special materials, Carbon/plastic/resins composites. They really need to put the marketing on it, and prove the world that it is better than magnesium or aluminium. We also have titanium. They can also work on a O/EVF. Holographic projection / 3D projection of informations inside the pentaprism.

I know that in the future, a lot of actual Sony participants will jump into an another camp, big time, and many post on this forum will be kind of ridiculous :lecture:
 

Chris Giles

New member
One of the reasons I do well in business is that I stay true to my core and don't apply every new trend or look to my work.

Turn that towards Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, Fuji et al and the mirrorless market is already saturated. Mirrorless cameras are nice enough but generally expensive for their target market, especially en mass. Especially Sony. Sony made a consumer camera and are asking a crazy amount of money for it. Like WTF Sony.

I think innovation can be termed in a business sense too, not just as a physical product. If all the manufacturers are chasing / forcing mirrorless onto consumers they'll be taking their eye off the DSLR ball by spreading their development resources too thinly. I don't touch mirrorless because quite openly I'll admit they're all crap for professional use.

By Canon doing nothing (that we know of) it might well be the most innovative thing they could be doing right now. At least I know with Canon when they release a product it does what it says it will do and does a great job of it. Canon users know this, it's why we stay.

A couple of years ago there was this huge buzz around Fuji and somewhere, sometimes I might hear Olympus mentioned. Now it's all Sony, Sony, Sony. I wonder how Fuji and Olympus are doing now. Probably ok, but there's no wind in their sales like I was used to seeing.

Big business is a long game. Canon aren't Kodak and they certainly aren't idiots.

From a DSLR point of view they may not have the best DR but they sure as hell have the best colours, AF system and I can happily use them for professional use and it's like when folks say the Canon 5Dsr isn't much of an improvement over the 5D3 - It's a massive improvement. They just improved on an already pretty perfect camera.

Or you could say they're innovating elsewhere by displaying their new real life printers, 120mp sensor, 8k video and that they'll get back to DSLR's and mirrorless shortly. I guess they're kinda busy right now.
 
M

mjr

Guest
In my opinion, the idea that all photographers want the same thing is ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as saying that dslr's are on the way out or that evf's are the future. I have tried many evf's and for me personally they are awful compared to a decent ovf. I have been reading for at least the last couple of years that evf's are getting close or are good enough, it may be surprising to hear that for me, good enough is not good enough! I don't need a evf to show what's in focus, I don't need a evf to show me what is over or under exposed, I need a viewfinder to compose with and there is nothing better for me than a good ovf. Others like different things and it's great when they find what they like or what works for them but honestly, it's not everyone!

What I think is perfect is utilising a ovf for framing and really looking at a scene, and then the option of seeing exactly what the sensor sees, which is a dslr, you have live view and ovf. Technology moves forward, there is always innovation which is a good thing but to think that the latest is the best is absurd.

I have a friend who is an excellent photographer, his macro work is unbelievable, he has picked up a 5ds and his pictures are just stunning, not enough dr sounds like an excuse for not producing good images to me, when the dr is higher then it will be because there is no evf, then when that comes it will be because there aren't enough mp's, it's never ending.

I wish people would just accept that there are different needs and requirements and a huge array of products to suit everyone, just get on with it!

Mat
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
One of the reasons I do well in business is that I stay true to my core and don't apply every new trend or look to my work.

Turn that towards Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, Fuji et al and the mirrorless market is already saturated. Mirrorless cameras are nice enough but generally expensive for their target market, especially en mass. Especially Sony. Sony made a consumer camera and are asking a crazy amount of money for it. Like WTF Sony.

.
Why does use of an EVF instead of a mirror change the purpose of a camera? The answer, of course, it that it doesn't, its simply an alternative. There is no mirror in a 5x4 field camera.

The mirror has been, until recently, a necessary evil required to enable dslr photographers to focus. When a better way is found to do the same job, without all the vibration, noise etc, then the mirror becomes redundant. That is where mirrorless comes in.

It is inevitable that all "35mm" and MF cameras (if these terms have much meaning anymore), save possibly for a small niche market, will be mirrorless and that includes Canon. Same happened when digital replaced most film. Right now, Sony have a huge head start.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
A friend of mine, who took up photography about two years ago and has had a few informal lessons from me and then gone on to do a course, recently decided that he wanted to move up a grade from the Gh3 kit I sold him when he started. He was just off on holiday and wanted to make a quick decision so he called me for advice as to what he should buy.

I talked him through the A7RII, the D810 (both of which I know pretty well) and the 5DS R (which I had never even seen, let alone held, but I used to have a 5D and 5DII).

I basically said, ignore the Canon: it has low DR and as a relative newb, a lot of DR will cover your arse. I then said that the D810 was IMHO capable if used optimally of slightly better results than the Sony but that this would be only under rare under specialised circumstances and that for the great majority of his use cases, he would get better results with the Sony. I also said that many of my favourite lenses at the moment are only available for the Sony, and that for travel, which he does a lot, he would get a much lighter kit with the Sony.

He thanked me for my help, and a few days later arrived in Bali and started sending me photos he had taken with his new 5DS. I had forgotten to tell him about the difference between the R and the base model, so he didn't know to consider that choice.

The reason he purchased the Canon was simple: it has more pixels. That's mostly it. He also likes the way if feels, "less like a toy" he said.

He's a bright guy and has a good eye but the thing is, pixels are tangible. To someone who does't really understand the enormous intricacies of these things, he bought the V12 rather than the V8. He's young and strong and thinks he can carry any amount of kit though he clearly hasn't yet really thought through the issues with cabin baggage allowance and so on. He doesn't really 'get' DR because he isn't advanced enough yet. And Canon is a big and well known camera brand whereas to him, Sony simply isn't.

Of course there's no right or wrong choice - but I do think this will turn out to have been the wrong choice for him (though I didn't say that!) but I learn one thing from all this. Brand names still matter, form factor can still impress for the wrong reasons and for a lot of people, pixel count trumps all.

I think Canon can run this way for quite a while yet. I also think they know that if sales go off a cliff, they can do an A7RII-alike with a new mount and that Zeiss et al will quickly cough up New Canon Mount versions until Canon themselves can flesh out the line.

Then there are the pros like Chris above, whose experience is that the mirrored format just creates better images for them. I disagree, and I think that's largely because of the type of work he does, but it is his experience and his cash.

Canon's not in any real danger. I don't think the 70's US Auto manufacturer analogy holds. I think they've done the market research and that they have a plan B. But I do think they'd be selling a lot more cameras if they thought differently.
 
M

mjr

Guest
Tim, why do you think it will be the wrong decision for him? Do you not think that he will be absolutely blown away every time he looks at an image he takes with the 5ds compared to his gh3? Of course he will, it's a massive step up. Most "normal" people will buy a camera to take pictures with, not to constantly compare against other cameras and second guess their choice, I would suggest that he will love the 5ds and take more shots with it because of the investment and the return he gets when he looks at the images. I really hope he's not going to go online and try and compare the shots he takes against others and wonder how extra dr would have helped his shots and will rather just photograph stuff with it.

As for travelling with a camera, I have never personally understood why people look for smaller, lighter and in "some" cases, compromised kit for travel, when I visit places I may never see again or experience a life that is not like my own, I want the absolute best I can use to capture those images regardless of weight or bulk, why on earth save the good but possibly heavier kit for what you see every day? Makes no sense to me at all, obviously I'm not daft enough to think my opinion is the same as others, just the way I see it.

Mat
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Everyone is different. I have no advice for large companies, but:

Pictures I have missed because of:
Insufficient DR: 0.1 % ---- Solution: Sony Sensor
Insufficient ISO: 1% ---- Solution: Sony Sensor
Bad Focus: 15% ---- Solution: Canon 1Dx
Lack of Vision: 50% ---- Solution: Take classes, shoot more, (give up?)
Sitting at Computer: 99% ---- Solution: Get motivated

The obvious best step is whatever gets me out of the house. That means a system I don't hate using. No spec sheet on earth can really even influence that beyond a temporary "wow, this camera can see through walls!" rush.

Sure, a lot of you are photographers who are so solid in your vision and purpose that 1 extra stop of DR or high ISO adds materially to your photographic output or enjoyment. I'm not there and probably will never be. If Sony wanted to keep photographers like me, they'd put more effort into ergonomics and an AF system that can match a 10 year old Canon on moving subjects.

--Matt
 
Last edited:

PeterA

Well-known member
I have given away every Sony camera I have ever bought - including the A7R - that makes 5 toy cameras I have bought to see what all the fuss is about - had a good look chuckled and gave away - so there is no elephant or mouse in my room.:grin:
 

scho

Well-known member
This new Canon sensor is not even full frame according to the specs that were published. It is supposedly an H size sensor (slightly larger than APS-C) and if that is correct I can't imagine what problems the high pixel density might create. Did I mis-read the specs or is this really a small sensor with very high pixel density? Reminds me of the TruColor sensor in my Nokia 1020 cell phone with much smaller 41 MP sensor but also very high pixel density. The nokia produces nice images that can rival APS-C sensor image quality so if Canon uses similar TruColor processing technology then a 120MP H size sensor might be interesting indeed.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I have given away every Sony camera I have ever bought - including the A7R - that makes 5 toy cameras I have bought to see what all the fuss is about - had a good look chuckled and gave away - so there is no elephant or mouse in my room.:grin:
There is a true Sony supporter! :LOL:
 
Top