DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

[fotografz]

Me thinks the Sony man doth protest too much.

Despite advancements in the Sony man's camera, it seems that he still feels so inferior that he must disparage both the products of other makers, and those who choose to use them.

- Marc

 

[lambert]

Me thinks the Sony man doth protest too much.

Despite advancements in the Sony man's camera, it seems that he still feels so inferior that he must disparage both the products of other makers, and those who choose to use them.

- Marc

Ken Rockwell disparages pretty much everything, Sony included.

 

[thompsonkirk]

This happens pretty often – people post something that I thought was humorous, and others take it to be snarky. The Leica Man sounded like a good joke to me.

On Jaree's point, I too have had serious problems right out of the box with otherwise beloved Leica products: An M9 with wobbly/disconnected shutter button (whole electronic part of shutter had to be replaced), and a 35 FLE that rattled and didn't 'stay put' at f1.4. Also some repairs that had to be repeated.

But I don't suppose Sony is any better (viz., decentered lenses).

Digital cameras are close to being disposable consumer goods? ?

Kirk

 

[jaree]

Digital cameras are close to being disposable consumer goods? ?

Kirk

Digital cameras ARE disposable goods, though I imagine the aluminium in the SL and magnesium in the A7Rii may have some value left after the electronics have gone to the landfill.

 

[PeterA]

Let us be honest- how about overpriced and way behind the curve? Why would anyone dump money on that?

Even Leica will not compare the SL with the A7R II.

Clearly because Leica has cornered the market on users who are all fools!!! There can be no other explanation - seriously all Leica users are just silly ...why they don't see the world the way Sony wants them to see it- is just one of those great mysteries - now solved by me- we Leica users are clearly just idjots...

anyone want to take my 9 M lenses and 5 S lenses off me - because I am just dying to shoot Sony...please help!!!

:ROTFL:

 

[Godfrey]

I had my Sony A7 a year and a half, used it extensively, and evaluated that it didn't suit me nor performed as well as I'd hoped. I sold it, the new owner loves it. I had no problems with it.

I've had few to no problems with any of my Leica gear since 1969 either. When I did, Leica took care of it courteously and efficiently. Yes, my M9 suffered the sensor corrosion problem. I took the opportunity to upgrade to the M-P, which I consider a much more refined and better performing Leica in all ways compared to the M9. I've had zero problems with it; I expect to be shooting with it a decade from now.

I have no interest in the comparison between SL and A7r II. Two completely different cameras, far as I'm concerned. I'd rather evaluate the SL on its own merits, and not gauge its performance by a stupid test that presupposes a foolish way to make exposures and correct them. If I'm going to compare the SL to anything, that will be the Leica R8, Leica S, Leica M240, or DSLRs like the Nikon D750.

To each their own.

 

[fotografz]

This happens pretty often – people post something that I thought was humorous, and others take it to be snarky. The Leica Man sounded like a good joke to me.

On Jaree's point, I too have had serious problems right out of the box with otherwise beloved Leica products: An M9 with wobbly/disconnected shutter button (whole electronic part of shutter had to be replaced), and a 35 FLE that rattled and didn't 'stay put' at f1.4. Also some repairs that had to be repeated.

But I don't suppose Sony is any better (viz., decentered lenses).

Digital cameras are close to being disposable consumer goods? ?

Kirk

No doubt that I also have had my share of Leica trials and tribulations. Most of them rectified eventually.

In contrast, the trials and tribulations I've had with Sony can never be rectified (a $3,200 Sardine can of a camera with a door slam shutter, predominate lag, smearing EVF, plastic light leaking mount, truncated RAW, stupefying interface ... then adding insult to injury with a slow mid-range zoom providing jaw dropping distortion) ... other than buying the next Sony-II that fixes some of the issues ... but leaves others so I will need to buy the Sony-III, and so on, and so on. To me, that is the very definition of "disposable" as a marketing plan.

One would think that the whole disposable aspect whould have quieted down by now. It was understandable when digital capture was in its' infancy and milestones were being broached. Today, there are enough highly competent cameras that are more than enough to fill most "real" needs ... with newer advancements for more specialized needs (like 43 meg and a zillion stops of DR).

As long as we rush to the over hyped, loudly proclaimed next coming of the new/now/new, whether we actually need it or not, then the manufacturers will gladly oblige us and take our money on a regular schedule ... like a photographic version of "Ground Hog Day" ... forever. It's a perfect con job with a mass audience:facesmack:

A student of mine observed that those that were constantly buying the next this or that seemed to need a new camera/lens/acessory to keep their interest in photography alive, rather than being inspired by ideas and creative explorations.

BTW, grousing about Leica prices is like Lemmings complaining that the cliff is to high ...:ROTFL:

- Marc

 

[teeraash]

I have Leica M9, Chrom and 240. My wish is that Leica won't put inferior sensor in the next M iteration. I don't mind paying more for the red dot as I like their lenses characters so much but not so thrill with behind the curve sensor.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

24mp just doesn't cut it any more, particularly at these elevated prices. If the reason given on DPR for Leica using a 24mp sensor, namely that anything over 24mp "seemed excessive", then that answer sounds a tad disingenuous. It is more likely that Leica either don't have the right higher resolution sensor option, or don't want to eat in to their even pricier Leica S camera line, which tops out at 37.5mp.

Check out a studio shot comparison between the SL and a A7RII on DPR. Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review

 

[k-hawinkler]

Well, I just spent a wonderful afternoon with my A7r2 and WATE at Los Luceros, the oldest continuously operated Hacienda, since 1703, in the state of New Mexico. After the last two days of rain, we had perfect weather today.

The Cottonwood trees in the bosque along the Rio Grande were featuring their peak fall colors, glorious yellow under navy blue skies and white snowy mountain tops of the Sangre de Cristos at the horizon, after the generous precipitation of the last two days.

The A7r2 with IBIS and the WATE comprise a rather compact package that fits my hand superbly. After two months of ownership muscle memory has taken over in operating the camera. The mirrorless ILC performed magnificently in the fairly dark interior of historical buildings, among the shady Cottonwood trees, and under bright open skies in full sunshine. The perfect tool for the occasion. No problems, whatsoever, encountered. Great company, a most enjoyable afternoon, here in the "Land of Enchantment"! :thumbs:

 

[Godfrey]

I have Leica M9, Chrom and 240. My wish is that Leica won't put inferior sensor in the next M iteration. I don't mind paying more for the red dot as I like their lenses characters so much but not so thrill with behind the curve sensor.

24mp just doesn't cut it any more, particularly at these elevated prices. If the reason given on DPR for Leica using a 24mp sensor, namely that anything over 24mp "seemed excessive", then that answer sounds a tad disingenuous. It is more likely that Leica either don't have the right higher resolution sensor option, or don't want to eat in to their even pricier Leica S camera line, which tops out at 37.5mp.

I disagree on both counts. My feeling from working with M-P files compared to A7 files is that the Leica sensor produces superior results, probably due to being a better match to my lenses and not having a crippled compression mechanism. I felt that way even about the M9 compared to the A7, or I wouldn't have sold the A7.

And at least for my photography and my lenses, 24 Mpixel is enough to make any output I'm ever going to need to make. It's already more than enough, in fact. I'm not one of those who customarily makes wall-sized prints—if I were, I'd likely find the scratch to invest in one of the Leica S models mentioned. I'd bet the same is true for the majority of photographers.

I believe strongly that there really is a point where enough is enough: Photographs don't always benefit from more, more, and yet more. Photographers even less. No matter what a manufacturer might want you to believe.

G

 

[Godfrey]

Well, I just spent a wonderful afternoon with my A7r2 and WATE at Los Luceros, the oldest continuously operated Hacienda, since 1703, in the state of New Mexico. After the last two days of rain, we had perfect weather today.

The Cottonwood trees in the bosque along the Rio Grande were featuring their peak fall colors, glorious yellow under navy blue skies and white snowy mountain tops of the Sangre de Cristos at the horizon, after the generous precipitation of the last two days.

The A7r2 with IBIS and the WATE comprise a rather compact package that fits my hand superbly. After two months of ownership muscle memory has taken over in operating the camera. The mirrorless ILC performed magnificently in the fairly dark interior of historical buildings, among the shady Cottonwood trees, and under bright open skies in full sunshine. The perfect tool for the occasion. No problems, whatsoever, encountered. Great company, a most enjoyable afternoon, here in the "Land of Enchantment"! :thumbs:

I'm glad to hear you are happy with your equipment. I look forward to seeing some of the photographs.

 

[k-hawinkler]

I disagree on both counts. My feeling from working with M-P files compared to A7 files is that the Leica sensor produces superior results, probably due to being a better match to my lenses and not having a crippled compression mechanism. I felt that way even about the M9 compared to the A7, or I wouldn't have sold the A7.

And at least for my photography and my lenses, 24 Mpixel is enough to make any output I'm ever going to need to make. It's already more than enough, in fact. I'm not one of those who customarily makes wall-sized prints—if I were, I'd likely find the scratch to invest in one of the Leica S models mentioned. I'd bet the same is true for the majority of photographers.

I believe strongly that there really is a point where enough is enough: Photographs don't always benefit from more, more, and yet more. Photographers even less. No matter what a manufacturer might want you to believe.

G

Me thinks Thou protest too much! :bugeyes:

 

[pegelli]

I have no interest in the comparison between SL and A7r II. Two completely different cameras, far as I'm concerned. I'd rather evaluate the SL on its own merits, and not gauge its performance by a stupid test that presupposes a foolish way to make exposures and correct them. If I'm going to compare the SL to anything, that will be the Leica R8, Leica S, Leica M240, or DSLRs like the Nikon D750.

To what extent do you think they're different? I agree the other comparisons you want to make also make sense, but those are even more dissimilar cameras then the A7rII.

My feeling from working with M-P files compared to A7 files is that the Leica sensor produces superior results, probably due to being a better match to my lenses and not having a crippled compression mechanism.

I can't comment on the sensor quality, but the crippled compression mechanism in the A7RII is a thing of the past.

 

[Vivek]

Clearly because Leica has cornered the market on users who are all fools!!! There can be no other explanation - seriously all Leica users are just silly ...why they don't see the world the way Sony wants them to see it- is just one of those great mysteries - now solved by me- we Leica users are clearly just idjots...

Is that what you think?

 

[fotografz]

I don't give a tinker's damn about Sony-Leica comparisons, or the on-going blather that surrounds it.

I want to know what Sony is doing for a customer that already bought one of their cameras, and a few, mostly slow aperture, mediocre FE lenses.

Raw compression may be a thing of the past on the A7R-II ... but not the A7R I already paid for.

Did Sony fix that?, because I'd like to update rather than shell out for yet another camera so soon.

While we are at it, did Sony fix the snail slow lag in the A7R, or the shutter slap heard around the world?

The new giant FE lenses may be excellent, but not the 24-70/4 and 35/2.8 FE lenses I already paid for.

Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II ... which is sure to be deemed crappy when the even more superlative A7R-III hits the market in short order.

I suppose the only option is to buy the A7R-II to get the fixes ... thus rewarding Sony for mediocrity.

- Marc

 

[Godfrey]

Me thinks Thou protest too much! :bugeyes:

Sorry to hear it, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Sony lost me with their perpetually clunky, irritating controls and menus, poor sensor decisions (the thick cover glass), variable quality control, mediocre EVF adaptation, funky software, and random quality lenses. The every-three-months-a-new-model also irritates me a lot: I want to see incremental development and refinement of a solid basic design, not bodge fixing with more bodges.

Why don't I consider the A7 to be in the same class of camera as the SL? Because it's not a good, solid, basic design, either technically or in execution, to start with. It was a bodge on NEX—sure, "we can stuff a bigger sensor in there, the lens mount will cover it (barely) and batteries are cheap." Ergonomics? Oh, they'll just put those big lenses on a tripod anyway, never mind that the whole body flexes when you don't provide a tripod mount on the lens and attach the body to the tripod, and that the layout of parts and connections makes a decent tripod adapter a real pain to make. Oops, flexy lens flange too .. Another fix up. But then who cares? the customers will just have to buy another model when we fix some of this stuff next quarter.

Leica started fresh, starting with a lens mount that will work perfectly for all their future AND past lenses, for both FF and APS-C; with a basic body structure that is strong and doesn't flex when you put it on a tripod; with bodies that are easy to design tripod adapters for; with quiet, low vibration shutters that don't need kluges like EFCS to eliminate untoward vibration; with good sensors that don't ballyhoo on more more more senseless pixel resolution but instead match the lenses well and produce balanced performance. With the right size for good ergonomics to match the lenses the format requires, and the use intended of the system. And they'll keep at it, refining a good basic design for years with improvements to firmware and creating a class leading set of lenses to add value to it. This is/has been the fundamental premise of Leica products all through the past century: good, basic designs developed over long periods to a state of high refinement, which is why a fifty year old Leica still commands a good price and is still completely useful and useable today. Like my Leicaflex SL and M4-2 are. Etc.

So no, I don't protest too much. I don't protest ENOUGH at the whole it's-all-disposable-and-who-cares-a-better-one-is-just-around-the-corner attitude that's money first and quality another time. At the cheaper-is-always-better-with-more-features philosophy that I so despise. I'm willing to dig into my pockets deep and pay for what I believe in—quality, trying to make the best, constant refinement of details and nuances—rather than accept that I will always have to work with second rate bodges. It's what I apply to my own work as well, even if it's cost me dearly on occasion there with my management; it benefits the customers in the end, and their benefit is my first priority.

Thanks for the soapbox. It was fun.

G

 

[4season]

Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II

Well, how much do you want for it? It doesn't appear that you ever listed it for sale.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I don't give a tinker's damn about Sony-Leica comparisons, or the on-going blather that surrounds it.

I want to know what Sony is doing for a customer that already bought one of their cameras, and a few, mostly slow aperture, mediocre FE lenses.

Raw compression may be a thing of the past on the A7R-II ... but not the A7R I already paid for.

Did Sony fix that?, because I'd like to update rather than shell out for yet another camera so soon.

While we are at it, did Sony fix the snail slow lag in the A7R, or the shutter slap heard around the world?

The new giant FE lenses may be excellent, but not the 24-70/4 and 35/2.8 FE lenses I already paid for.

Now I can't give away the crappy A7R to fund the superlative A7R-II ... which is sure to be deemed crappy when the even more superlative A7R-III hits the market in short order.

I suppose the only option is to buy the A7R-II to get the fixes ... thus rewarding Sony for mediocrity.

- Marc

Marc M8/M9. My M8 sat in Germany for 6 months not one but two of them getting repairs and lets not forget the magenta **** that went along with it, what was the fix Marc BUY filters. I lost my shirt and pants selling them. bad argument look somewhere else because these arguments we can go around the globe with. Leica sucks too lets be real honest here. You want your A7r fixed buy a A7rII and take the bath just like I did with Leica. Please tell me there is a difference. This elitism is freaking sickening lets get over it folks. You want to spend a lot of money on Leica products no one is arguing thats your money. I don't I won't and i can't its that simple. I have far more pressing ISSUES to spend my earned money on. I want value proposition and Leica has never been that. This thread has turned into yet another them versus us, are we not just sick to death of this crap. i could give a **** about Leica as you do Sony. Im not spewing any hate towards them in any thread. i can't afford them i have a sick wife and medical bills that go through 2 lifetimes. Now am I scum of the Sony earth because thats what makes sense to me .

I had enough of my own forum. Hows that for my day

Ive been up since 4 am writing a review on a lens that no one here will give a rats *** about because its related to Sony. Isn't that just fun

Im not replying to anything further here a complete waste of time. Im not getting younger either. LOL

 

[pegelli]

Sorry to hear it, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Well, it certainly feels that way to me

Maybe your rant was fun (it was at least amusing to read) but that also doesn't mean it's true.

I have nothing against Leica (I still use my M2 and several M-lenses with great pleasure) but putting them on a pedestal above others is hardly justified by their share of QC problems and enormous depreciation in value of their digital bodies.