DPR allows some Leica SL and A7RII comparisons

[lambert]

Every Single Sony camera I have ever owned had to be repaired: VX2100, PD170, Nex-5, Nex5n and while the A7 did not have a failure, it had to be modified for 400USD before being fit for use with my lenses.

My Leica M9 had a shutter failure after over 100K frames and had to have a new one that cost 500USD and included other routine service.

In terms of toughness m9 vs A7 it is no contest. The A7 is fragile. Very risky to get it wet. Even the batteries may release without warning. Only with a very tough case do I dare bring it in the backcountry.

Which Leica bodies have you owned and shot over 30,000 frames with?

Leica M8, M9 (x2), M9P. All with issues, except for the last one.

The NEX5 is a $300 camera. Seriously ... you expect to compare this with $7000 cameras.

The A7RII is an entirely different camera to the A7.

Which "current" generation Sony FF's have you owned?

 

[4season]

I don't put Leica on a pedestal above others.

C'mon Godfrey, I think you're familiar with the expression "Can't BS a BS-er"?

Just when you think you've got some small facet of life figured out, they go and change all the rules on you. C'est la vie! Resistance is futile.

 

[ohnri]

Every Single Sony camera I have ever owned had to be repaired: VX2100, PD170, Nex-5, Nex5n and while the A7 did not have a failure, it had to be modified for 400USD before being fit for use with my lenses.

My Leica M9 had a shutter failure after over 100K frames and had to have a new one that cost 500USD and included other routine service.

In terms of toughness m9 vs A7 it is no contest. The A7 is fragile. Very risky to get it wet. Even the batteries may release without warning. Only with a very tough case do I dare bring it in the backcountry.

Which Leica bodies have you owned and shot over 30,000 frames with?

M8 and M9 both with many problems. Not problems like, "I had to put it on a helicopter before it would fly." Problems like, it won't really work without special filters for every shot. Or it won't calibrate with more than one lens for accurate focus. Or it won't shoot several rapid shots in a row without needing to be stopped, battery removed, battery replaced and restarted ...

Also currently own, RX1, A7, A7r2, A7s2. Never any problem. Ever. Except when I expect the not even designed for capability to just be there. Like a bigger buffer, AF working in AF-C mode at more than 2 fps ...

Also, Nikon has been releasing a ton of broken gear lately. See Thom Hogan for a long rant about that one. I have no idea about Canon as the sensor banding kept me away even when I was buying giant DSLR's.

My Samsung NX1 often has slight glitches when shooting as well and they do a firmware update seemingly weekly.

My point is only that trying to run down camera system because the gear, which performs according to design, does not meet a certain criteria is different from saying the gear is glitchy or always broken.

Also, anecdotal stories will doubtless skew toward the support of one's current system. They just will. That is unavoidable.

The Leica SL looks like a very capable system. It would be a no-brainer for me if I still had a pile of M lenses. As it is, my Noctilux is brilliant on my A7, so no worries.

No doubt the A7r2 has more DR and resolution. That is Sony tech at work. Leica is unlikely to beat that. But there is so much more to a camera system than those two things. Especially when they are more than adequate for almost any photography already. Just ask the legions of happy Canon shooters that go around making really great photos using the lousy Canon sensors.

But, in terms of just plain reliability, I have never shot with any digital Leica that I considered remotely as reliable as any of the Sony's I have now. I would take any of them anywhere, in any condition and not be concerned. And yes, I would use a rain cover if I needed one. My M lenses were not weather sealed either. Even my D4 was not made for pouring rain. Maybe my Olympus EM-1, 5 MP beast that it was, could have handled that.

Even my Nikon AW1 has failed many, many people just by getting slightly dunked in the water and it is supposed to go nearly 50 feet under.

As I always say in these contentious threads, no bad choices.

As a separate issue, rugged is not a word I would ever apply to any digital M. The RF mechanism is far too delicate for the high resolutions photographer expect today. I have been shooting Leica RF almost 50 years and I have had many go out of calibration from seemingly innocuous bumps. But, this is not an issue of glitchy design in my mind. It is inherent in the design specs and to be expected.

-Bill

 

[Annna T]

I never called the A7R garbage. Nor am I interested in comparisons with another camera I do not know ... I'm more curious about challenging some info about a system I DO own and have used extensively.

So, let's not engage in revisionist history.

If you go back to the initial love fest over the A7R, many of the issues were being denied by Sony AND by many fairly respected shooters here ... I even tried to get with the program thinking it would just take some practice or better understanding of the camera which is generally acknowledged as being quite complex.

Perception: Here was a very portable camera, easy to take with, perfect for some of the work I do, decisive moment stuff and the like ... plus high resolution for some other type work.

Reality: The lag turned out to be the biggest issue manifested by missed moments ... timing for which I am usually known for by my clients (mostly with a M camera). The high res was effected by the shutter slap with some key lenses, and people were working through a number of solutions for that. Plus the truncated RAW which Sony never communicated when selling the camera ... which you think is minor, but who wouldn't want a full RAW file with all of the data going in if that's what you paid for? If it was so minor, why did everyone raise such a ruckus about it?

Finally, I do not know where you bought your camera but there was not a 30 day trial period on the one I bought ... at least not when I bought it.

- Marc

I got an A7r too and it was my first Sony camera ever. I think that your perception was partly wrong : I knew from the outset that the A7 won't bring resolution and the A7r won't be a very fast camera allowing decisive moment. There was clearly a choice between the first two models whether you wanted speed (then take an A7 with phase detection and less pixels to move around) or resolution (then buy the A7r).

I got an A7r because I'm rarely after a decisive moment and I have been perfectly happy with that body. The somewhat lossy compressed raws aren't a huge problem, although it can be detected with close examination, especially for night photography and star photography. The shutter shock was overhyped, only affected the body with very long lenses and too sturdy tripods. I have been more disturbed by the IQ of the lenses : I was lucky with the 55mm and the 24-70mm zoom, but less so with either the 70-200mm (it has much worse corners than my Canon 70-200mm F4 L), or the 16-35mm which @ 24mm is clearly worse than the 24-70mm.

After much internal debating (high price and bigger, heavier body) I finally got an A7rII and I'm happy with it. Main reason to get it was the speedier AF and the less noisy shutter, the electronic first curtain. Plus I like the rendering of the BSI sensor.

No camera is perfect. Each comes with limitations and you have to decide whether you can work around them or not. In this case, yes, the A7r has some limitations, but you are over-hyping them. Apart of the decisive moment issue : for that the A7r wasn't the right camera, all reviews and users reports were clear about it.

I hope that nevertheless you have found ways of enjoying your A7r.

 

[retow]

A funny discussion. I own Leicas (M9 & Q) and Sonys (A7IIr & RX100IV). My reasonably healthy eyes and decent screen tell me that The Sony A7IIr sensor beats the one in the SL and Q, by quite a noticeable margin. I can not understand the issue some of the Leica owners seem to have with this- Hey, a Nissan GT-R wipes the floor with a 911 Carrera 4s, spec wise and on track and costs half a 911 Carrera less. :bugeyes:

 

[uhoh7]

The A7RII is an entirely different camera to the A7.

Funny the batteries look identical. You think that's it? A7II sensor is the same as A7 except with IBIS. Guess that one's already outdated and can't be included, wow that was fast.

I take it you not have owned a digital Leica, just to be clear, correct?

@Bill Sorry I don't buy the Mx is so fragile. Been in every war zone since Vietnam. Jeez how did they ever focus? I ski with mine all the time in the winter. In the summer here is it's main bag, the black one, on the tank:


DSC02411 by unoh7, on Flickr

It goes on very rough trails. For years. Still seems to focus fine with even the fast lenses. I'm sure it will need calibration. That's normal and can be done by many techs or by ones self. The M8 was not stopped by needing filters for color. You just put the filter on. The current M9 delimitation issues take hold over considerable time, so it's not a surprise.

If you put the A7 next to the M9 the difference is pretty obvious. The Sony screen and controls are way more in harms way, the whole build is far cheaper. Yes the battery doors are better now, I hear, and the narrow mount is better built. But overall I'm skeptical the camera is more sturdy. It's bigger, yes. Now there is IBIS to complicate things. Drop the M9, it may go out of calibration. Drop the Sony, it may stop working.

"Weatherproof" is a stretch compared to Canikon. Of course all cameras may fail. It's always possible. I'd like to see the Sony more sturdy. For 3kUSD I would like to see a great build. Forgetting the context of comparison, is that so unreasonable?

Back to SL, from what I can see, better built, more flexible, better lens options, WAY better EVF, nicer interface, better files. It's also bigger and more than double the price, with less pixels and less DR. Any of those criteria may rise or fall in an individuals priorities, but let's not pretend there is no contest here.

Plenty of perfectly sane photographers would prefer to own the SL over the A7r2. Not for nothing.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Guy,

Thanks for commenting.

With regard to the SL2 I would think that it can be a very good camera, albeit I find that making a camera with what is supposed be the best lenses and a 24 MP sensor is not really optimal.

With the Sony A7rII there seems to be three camps, those who overhype it and sound like it is the second coming of Jesus, those who trash it and those who use it to make images.

Personally, I see a camera as a part of an imaging system. That is it should deliver very good images. The Sony A7rII does that. It is a very usable camera, at least in my experience.

There are things I don't like. Small battery -> short battery life. Menu system is quite messy. But, I can set up my camera with decent presets so I seldom need to go into those menus. I only needed two batteries a day on my recent travels, but I am slow shooter.

A small observation. Some posted a message starting with:
"DPR can hardly be considered an honest or competent broker, …"

That statement may be out of context, but it caught my eye. DPReviews gives anyone interested the opportunity to compare well shot studio images between any cameras. It is a good service to the community and deserves some respect.

Now, any 42 MP camera will blow away any 24 MP camera in resolution, at least if paired with a decent lens. The poster can complain that DPReview tested the SL with a zoom lens while the Sony was tested with a prime. But, that zoom is the only available lens for the SL right now. Also, good zooms can be made, and that Leica zoom is priced like 4-5 pices of the Sony 55/1.8, it ought to be good.

Best regards
Erik

The Leica M8 was exactly like the A7 a beta product. There is zero difference. I really want someone to even try telling me different. I had thousands of dollars in 2 M8 bodies that spent 6 months in Germany for sudden death syndrome . Not 1 but 2. If I was not a friend of Leica with 2 loaners I was totally out of business. I don't forget these things. I mean out of business I had nothing to do business with. Talk about failure. Now ask me how often I go into the Leica forum and bitch about that. It's been years since I even said anything. Cameras are cameras there made bad sometimes they fail often. That's life. Regardless of what folks think of the A7r it produces till this day outstanding images. Anyone that thought they where not buying a beta product is very naive. The SL is a beta product to that line. If you don't realize that again your naive. That does not always mean it's bad but it does mean they are untested. That's the risk you take. Don't like that risk don't spend the money. But the Sony owners can join me in my new club. I shoot **** cameras and I'm proud group. Sign up coming on the 11 o'clock news. :grin:

 

[uhoh7]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

 

[ohnri]

Funny the batteries look identical. You think that's it? A7II sensor is the same as A7 except with IBIS. Guess that one's already outdated and can't be included, wow that was fast.

I take it you not have owned a digital Leica, just to be clear, correct?

@Bill Sorry I don't buy the Mx is so fragile. Been in every war zone since Vietnam. Jeez how did they ever focus? I ski with mine all the time in the winter. In the summer here is it's main bag, the black one, on the tank:


DSC02411 by unoh7, on Flickr

It goes on very rough trails. For years. Still seems to focus fine with even the fast lenses. I'm sure it will need calibration. That's normal and can be done by many techs or by ones self. The M8 was not stopped by needing filters for color. You just put the filter on. The current M9 delimitation issues take hold over considerable time, so it's not a surprise.

If you put the A7 next to the M9 the difference is pretty obvious. The Sony screen and controls are way more in harms way, the whole build is far cheaper. Yes the battery doors are better now, I hear, and the narrow mount is better built. But overall I'm skeptical the camera is more sturdy. It's bigger, yes. Now there is IBIS to complicate things.

"Weatherproof" is a stretch compared to Canikon. Of course all cameras may fail. It's always possible. I'd like to see the Sony more sturdy. For 3kUSD I would like to see a great build.

Glad you have had a great experience with your Leicas in terms of RF ruggedness. I would certainly feel differently if I had not experienced so many issues over so many decades with so many Leica M's. Of course, I have also read thread after thread after thread of careful users complain about calibration of every sort - lens to lens variation, this one will focus close but not far, this RF should be calibrated this way for wide open shooting and this way for stopped down shooting. "I just sent six lenses and both bodies to Solm's to be calibrated together, thank goodness I have my iPhone to use for the next four months." Not all of these calibration issues would be easily handled with a tiny screwdriver and a picture of which itty-bitty screw to turn pulled from the Internet.

The filters were a huge screw up and they cost a lot more than $400 if you could even find them and that was to use the camera as intended and they were still really needed to some degree on the M9. Not to mention, some people hate putting filters on their glass because of the issues that causes. Also, stacking filters is no fun.

Using the cameras in every war zone because they were the best small choice available means very little. Those incredible war images aren't the same razor sharp images we expect today. There is a reason not many war zone images are made with Leica RF anymore despite their storied history.

Just to say it, I could get great shots with an out of calibration RF at wide aperatures. I just had to know how it was out of calibration. Then, stationary objects were easy. Moving objects harder. Change lenses and .. hey, it's anybody's guess unless I knew how it was out of calibration with that lens also.

I should mention that I did a lot of wide open shooting. Partially because the look appealed to me and partially because of my subject matter. If I spent all day shooting at mid to far distances at F/8 that would cover a lot of sins. If I never shot multiple shots rapidly that would not be an issue. If I was going to use one filter and one filter only then super duper.

I spent a lot of time twisting those little adjustment screws around to make sure my Noctilux and Summiluxes focused right where I wanted them to when shooting fast, furious and wide open.

When you want eyes in focus, you want eyes in focus.

Nothing does that like my A7r2.

Have yet to break off a mirror or control on any camera, ever.

Guess that will happen tomorrow now.

Never said the A series is weatherproof. I think the newer ones are a lot better. I said I would not hesitate to use them in the rain, in a bag, just like my Leicas.

Got some great shots last night of my family at Halloween using my A7s2. My lens was the 35/1.5 FE. Several of my favorites were over ISO 50,000. Some were over 100,000 and I still had to pull shadows. Tonight on my 15" computer slide show, which I had to repeat over an over because everyone wants to sit close, it was nothing but love.

When I handed my camera to a famous movie director to take a photo of me with my family, his comment was "Wow, this camera is a lot smaller than mine", as he handed his mega-ton Canon over to his wife to hold for a moment.

I said "I'm secure that way," then I smiled and said "Cheese."

-Bill

 

[PeterA]

A funny discussion. I own Leicas (M9 & Q) and Sonys (A7IIr & RX100IV). My reasonably healthy eyes and decent screen tell me that The Sony A7IIr sensor beats the one in the SL and Q, by quite a noticeable margin. I can not understand the issue some of the Leica owners seem to have with this- Hey, a Nissan GT-R wipes the floor with a 911 Carrera 4s, spec wise and on track and costs half a 911 Carrera less. :bugeyes:

The real judges of cars are those who drive them - how many cup holders in the Nissan and can I fit a can of coke in one - that would be a game changer for me- my GT3-RS doesn't have one!!!

 

[retow]

The real judges of cars are those who drive them - how many cup holders in the Nissan and can I fit a can of coke in one - that would be a game changer for me- my GT3-RS doesn't have one!!!

The GT3-RS is in another league, also price wise

 

[ohnri]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

Absolutely easy answer. The insanely versatile A7r2 with Eye Detect AF and great low light files without banding would be my choice. IBIS would put it over the top that it is already over.

I was shooting my A7s2 with my 35/1.4 at ISO over 100,000 at 1/15 of a second handheld last night and the results were wonderful. The A7r2 will come close to that when downsized.

The SL cannot shoot in that same ballpark. Not to mention, when I wanted to be in a photo I would hand the camera to anyone and say push this. Viola, super photo. Try that with the MF 50 APO. "Oh, just turn this until you see that then stop and rock it back and forth for awhile. Wait, did you just step 12 inches closer? Okay, do it again. Stop leaning in please. Look, just put the aperature to f/8. The aperature. It is this dial on the lens. Yes, on the actual lens. What do you mean the image is too dark now? Hold on, don't everyone leave. We can do this if we pull together or use my phone with the built in flash. Okay, here is my phone."

Easy answer.

-Bill

 

[pegelli]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

I'd take the SL + 50 APO but just to cure my personal curiosity about the camera, it's just one day so even if I totally dislike it (which it most probably not the case) any self inflicted torture will be over very soon.

However if the experiment is you can buy either one at the same price to use for the next ~5years I'd take the A7R2 + 55/1.8. This obviously assumes you are not allowed to choose the SL + 50 APO, sell it and buy two A7R2's + lenses instead.

 

[Vivek]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

Will put the SL, FS with a 20% premium. Buy 3 A7r II later. Convert one to UV only. Two for regular use. Already have the 55/1.8 and I will use the 50/2 AA as well.

The only thing that goes for a Leica M is its iconic looks. The SL is b#%^ ugly.

Will enjoy the xotic location. No shooting.

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

If I had a camera carved out one piece of solid gold I would defend it against anything better made from plastic till kingdom comes.

 

[PeterA]

I'd take one look at the SL and think WOW BABY you are SSOOOOOOOOOO beautiful...I'm looking at that awesome retro design and seeing a naked Salma Hayek....yah baby thats what I 'm talking about!!!! - a truly sexy camera I an add to my harem...

then I'd say to the Leica boutique sales rep..(.I fancy the young girl in the London store - it is close to my offices in Mayfair ) ...

"sweet thing - forget the loaner SL - give me two new ones right now and two of those zoom lenses it comes with so I can do a proper lens test back at the farm..and ditch the lessor of the two..
she'd smile back at me (thinking of the sales commission she is going to score)

and I would casually toss the A7R11 loaner into the nearest bin on my way out.


am I doing this trolling / fight fest thing right?

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

The A7r2. The lenses are comparable, the A7r2 has nearly twice the resolution, IBIS, better dynamic range, and I am told can make a great dry Gin Martini with a twist of lemon at the end of the day.

 

[jaree]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

I will take the one with a lens that can auto-focus reliably and is made by a company that knows how to mass produce reliable digital cameras and and makes its own sensors. I am done with crappy electronics, sensor banding, sensor corrosion, waiting for 5 months so that some magic genius can adjust my NEW camera and NEW lenses in Germany which should have been adjusted already before they left the shop floor, failed AF on my 3 S lenses, etc. Today's Leica is full of...##@@$. Yeah, this is coming from a guy who has actually used the stuff.

Next question?

 

[hiepphotog]

Here is a little thought experiment:

You arrive at an exotic location. There are two cameras on the table and a day ahead. No assignment, you just shoot for your pleasure.

One camera is A7r2 and 55/1.8. The other is Leica SL and 50 APO. Just a loaner for the day. For whatever reason strikes you, you grab one.

Which is it?

Be honest LOL

The one thing I have not used is the SL, so naturally I would be curious about it. However, since it's an exotic location, I would rely on something I know (instead of fiddling around and miss the moments). That would be the A7R2 with 50 APO . If I can send it to Kolari for the mod, even better.

Now if I can have one of these combo, I would take the most expensive one . Try it, sell it and get what I really want.

 

[Godfrey]

No interest in the Sony at all for me ...
From the responses, I would guess this is the Sony forum. Wave the flag!

G