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Sony Alpha MIS Strobe/Flash Options

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The Priolite test kit went back yesterday morning. Overall it was a great experience. I have more test photos that I can post this weekend and a promotional shoot for a client that I really can't post images from for contractual reasons.

Some of my ongoing thoughts and notes from using the Priolite kit:

  • I am very impressed with the light quality and color consistency produced.
  • The controller is larger than many other controllers but it is rather light in weight.
  • I rarely experienced any misfires from the controller and when I did it seemingly was due to either the light not being fully charged or a lost tethered connection between the camera and C1Pro9. In all cases the problem was remedied.
  • The flash sync works seamlessly at all power levels and shutter speeds that I tried (from min to max power and all the way down to 1/8000th sec.)

Additional thoughts on my modifier collection:

  • Mola Softlights (I have the Soft Silver Demi and the Rayo) are expensive but worth it IMO. The light really is beautiful from them.
  • The Mola Rayo is very unique in being a "long throw" beauty dish that give very directional hard or soft light depending on the distance to the subject. I don't have a light meter to measure the exact amount, but I would say using a Mola Rayo adds about 1 extra stop of light on your subject (much like a Profoto Magnum does.) This will give the 500w light around 1000w of effective luminance.
  • The SMDV Speedbox A-110 gives very beautiful light output like many other large source softboxes. IMO it'll be great for full body or small group shots. I'll echo and co-sign Ken Doo's opinion's on his review here as it's more in-depth than I want to be here.

Again I'll post a few more samples this weekend when I can.
 

dmward

Member
A note for those with Godox Sony triggers and speedlites.
There is new firmware.

GODOX PHOTO EQUIPMENT CO.,LTD Download

Updated Contents

1. Add close-range (within 30cm) triggering: press the TEST button, powering the transmitter on and holding down until the STATUS indicator lamp blinks for two times. The wireless control range is from 0 to 30 meters now.

2. Optimize the agreement with SONY camera hot shoe.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Okay as promised here are a few shots of myself (by no means a model) taken in front of a window for a partially backlit subject (mid-day for the most sun we were able to get on Monday at about 75-80% sun coverage for about an hour or so). I was not at maximum power or the fastest shutter speed (I varied the power levels between 2-4 stops from maximum level so ~35-125w of power of this light because I was indoors) at the same time on any of the shots so it would be possible to get the background even darker. A Mola Demi Soft Silver modifier was used on all but the B&W shot (which you can see the light pattern partially reflected in the picture on the wall) which I used a SMDV Speedbox A-110 for.

These are SOOC (except the B&W conversion on the one shot for effect.)

A7RII | 85 Batis | f/2 | 1/2000th |ISO 100
SelfieShots by Tre Nelson, on Flickr

A7RII | 85 Batis | f/2.2 | 1/8000th |ISO 100
SelfieShots 3 by Tre Nelson, on Flickr

A7RII | 85 Batis | f/1.8 | 1/8000th |ISO 100
SelfieShots 2 by Tre Nelson, on Flickr

A7RII | 85 Batis | f/2 | 1/4000th |ISO 100
SelfieShots 1 by Tre Nelson, on Flickr
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Additional Priolite Tests (and frankly more thorough that my short term testing) featuring the 1000w units using Pentax 645Z and Canon 1Dx.

http://www.markkitaoka.com/latest-news/priolite-mbx1000-hotsync-initial-tests/

http://www.markkitaoka.com/latest-news/review-pcbs-omni-18-reflector/

And a blog post on modifying PCB modifiers (which are generally good modifiers that are inexpensive) to Bowens mount.

http://www.markkitaoka.com/latest-news/adapting-pcb-hard-modifiers-to-accept-bowens-s-mounts/
 

dmward

Member
HERE is a page I added describing a test I did at a Garfield Park Conservatory wedding reception. The AD600 lights delivered as expected.

HERE is a comparison of power output for the three levels of Godox lights I have.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I'm still exploring possibilities of using what I already have rather than yet another lighting system.

I've discovered some interesting stuff in the process.

The biggest hurdle I've had to deal with when exploring options is the lack of a PC port on the Sony A7 cameras. This stops me from placing a Sony capable TTL speed-light the hot shoe for TTL fill, and a Profoto (or any other) radio transmitter hard-wired to a PC port for key (adjustable from the camera via the AIR controller) … like I've been able to do with all other cameras I use with lighting.

I have a job coming up where I'l need both. Since no one else will be shooting, I decided to try using the optical slave on the strobes triggered by the speed-light.

I'm using a pair of Nissan Di700A speed-lights fired by the Nissan Air-1 Transmitter. Transmitter in the hot-shoe, one speed-light on a Custom Brackets CB Folding bracket (highly recommended for these Sony A7 cameras), one speed-light with modifier on a stand as accent … with main key lighting coming from a Profoto B1, (and possibly a Hensel Expert 500 mono-light with AIR where needed).

I figured I'd have to set the Nissan system to manual because of the pre-flash from the Sony system would prematurely trigger the strobes.

Apparently not with the B1. As an experiment, I set the Nissan kit to Wireless TTL with the Profoto B1 set to optical trigger. Here's where it got weird … the Sony TTL does the double "pre-flash/real-flash" … and so did the Profoto!

The net effect is that The Nissan TTL reads the effect of the Profoto strobe's 1st-flash, and its own light and provides proper TTL fill.

The main surprise is that the Profoto recycle time appears unaffected. It is very fast even at higher levels despite the double flash. I'm sure it is using more battery energy but that is less of an issue since I have plenty of batteries.

I guess the optical slave just does it when commanded … both times … and the B1 is fast enough to keep up.

- Marc

Oh, BTW … is there a way to use TTL without the pre-flash on these Sony's? I couldn't find anything in the Menu … but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I'm still exploring possibilities of using what I already have rather than yet another lighting system.

I've discovered some interesting stuff in the process.

The biggest hurdle I've had to deal with when exploring options is the lack of a PC port on the Sony A7 cameras. This stops me from placing a Sony capable TTL speed-light the hot shoe for TTL fill, and a Profoto (or any other) radio transmitter hard-wired to a PC port for key (adjustable from the camera via the AIR controller) … like I've been able to do with all other cameras I use with lighting.

I have a job coming up where I'l need both. Since no one else will be shooting, I decided to try using the optical slave on the strobes triggered by the speed-light.

I'm using a pair of Nissan Di700A speed-lights fired by the Nissan Air-1 Transmitter. Transmitter in the hot-shoe, one speed-light on a Custom Brackets CB Folding bracket (highly recommended for these Sony A7 cameras), one speed-light with modifier on a stand as accent … with main key lighting coming from a Profoto B1, (and possibly a Hensel Expert 500 mono-light with AIR where needed).

I figured I'd have to set the Nissan system to manual because of the pre-flash from the Sony system would prematurely trigger the strobes.

Apparently not with the B1. As an experiment, I set the Nissan kit to Wireless TTL with the Profoto B1 set to optical trigger. Here's where it got weird … the Sony TTL does the double "pre-flash/real-flash" … and so did the Profoto!

The net effect is that The Nissan TTL reads the effect of the Profoto strobe's 1st-flash, and its own light and provides proper TTL fill.

The main surprise is that the Profoto recycle time appears unaffected. It is very fast even at higher levels despite the double flash. I'm sure it is using more battery energy but that is less of an issue since I have plenty of batteries.

I guess the optical slave just does it when commanded … both times … and the B1 is fast enough to keep up.

- Marc

Oh, BTW … is there a way to use TTL without the pre-flash on these Sony's? I couldn't find anything in the Menu … but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

That sounds like an amazing potential solution for you.
 

dmward

Member
Oh, BTW … is there a way to use TTL without the pre-flash on these Sony's? I couldn't find anything in the Menu … but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Would be pretty hard to eliminate the pre-flash with TTL since that's the flash that the camera meter reads to determine the proper output for the main flash.

Without the pre-flash there is no TTL meter reading for the flash.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
That sounds like an amazing potential solution for you.
Thanks, it is only a partial "studio" solution that works using the strobe's optical trigger … but not usable in situations where other people are using flash (like a wedding, public location, or indoor event).

My lighting system is all Profoto with AIR, and some Hensel lighting (Hensel offers lighting featuring built-In Profoto AIR receivers), with an array of preferred mods for those mounts. 80% of commercial work is done with the MF camera which does have a PC port and full HSS to 1/1000 when using the AIR system … and dedicated speed-lights with HSS. I've yet to face a situation that I can't solve with what I have for MF.

However, I'd dearly like to use the little Sony for many mobile and location applications because of the system size. I really like what you guys have been showing with these new lighting solutions, but prefer to try and figure out ways to work with what I already have … which in the end may not work, forcing me to secure some of the stuff you folks are demonstrating:thumbup:

Who would've thought a missing PC port would be so crippling?:thumbdown:

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Would be pretty hard to eliminate the pre-flash with TTL since that's the flash that the camera meter reads to determine the proper output for the main flash.

Without the pre-flash there is no TTL meter reading for the flash.
Yes, thanks, I understand the pre-flash workings as it relates to TTL.

My issue is the gap between pre-flash and actual on the A7R-II which is counter to decisive moment action work, while promoting closed eyes with portraits or candid portraits. For example, the Sony A900 exhibited almost no perceptible gap … As demo'ed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHrBcT51oE8

I may be suffering from selective and/or faulty memory, but I do recall being able to set other flashes to "one pop" TTL. Other than the A900, I've always hated Sony wireless TTL pre-flash because it too often causes people to blink just when the real shot takes place. However, the solution was easy with the A900 and A99 because they both had PC ports to trigger studio type strobes. TTL speed-light in the hot shoe worked on both those cameras, so I assume it wasn't operating in a Pre-flash mode because the strobes always sync'ed perfectly (there is no setting on studio strobes to ignore pre-flash).

Kind of a mystery to me.

- Marc
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Thanks, it is only a partial "studio" solution that works using the strobe's optical trigger … but not usable in situations where other people are using flash (like a wedding, public location, or indoor event).

My lighting system is all Profoto with AIR, and some Hensel lighting (Hensel offers lighting featuring built-In Profoto AIR receivers), with an array of preferred mods for those mounts. 80% of commercial work is done with the MF camera which does have a PC port and full HSS to 1/1000 when using the AIR system … and dedicated speed-lights with HSS. I've yet to face a situation that I can't solve with what I have for MF.

However, I'd dearly like to use the little Sony for many mobile and location applications because of the system size. I really like what you guys have been showing with these new lighting solutions, but prefer to try and figure out ways to work with what I already have … which in the end may not work, forcing me to secure some of the stuff you folks are demonstrating:thumbup:

Who would've thought a missing PC port would be so crippling?:thumbdown:

- Marc
Yeah Sony always adds quirks in their products. Sort of how they always promoted Memory Stick when the rest of the industry was comfortable with CF/SD cards. I guess I get it somewhat in a business sense but there are benefits to standards like USB support and PC flash.

I hope to have my two 1000w Priolites by next weekend. They just arrived stateside Friday afternoon. They'll be function tested on Monday and shipped out no later than Tuesday if all checks out 100% after the flight from Germany and the dance with customs.
 

dmward

Member
Yes, thanks, I understand the pre-flash workings as it relates to TTL.

My issue is the gap between pre-flash and actual on the A7R-II which is counter to decisive moment action work, while promoting closed eyes with portraits or candid portraits. For example, the Sony A900 exhibited almost no perceptible gap … As demo'ed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHrBcT51oE8

I may be suffering from selective and/or faulty memory, but I do recall being able to set other flashes to "one pop" TTL. Other than the A900, I've always hated Sony wireless TTL pre-flash because it too often causes people to blink just when the real shot takes place. However, the solution was easy with the A900 and A99 because they both had PC ports to trigger studio type strobes. TTL speed-light in the hot shoe worked on both those cameras, so I assume it wasn't operating in a Pre-flash mode because the strobes always sync'ed perfectly (there is no setting on studio strobes to ignore pre-flash).

Kind of a mystery to me.

- Marc
Marc,
I used monolights connected to PC port and ETTL speedlites on Canon cameras for years. That's always how it worked. the pre-flash is apparently initiated by a control pin signal, the camera reads the low power flash, determines what is need for exposure, sends a signal to the flash to set power and then sends the FP- or X- sync signal to the flash and the X-sync signal to the PC connection which fires the monolights.

That was, is. One of my associates was using a moonlight along with TTL speedlite last night. trigger for monolight plugged into PC port on 5DIII and 600EX-RT on top.

I was using 4 Godox AD600BTTL monolights in TTL with an X1Ts on top of an A7RII.

I do agree that the pre-flash is slow and not conducive to decisive moment shooting. :)

Just as its possible to see the pre-flash with a DSLR before the mirror goes up, its possible to see the pre flash in the EVF.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,
I used monolights connected to PC port and ETTL speedlites on Canon cameras for years. That's always how it worked. the pre-flash is apparently initiated by a control pin signal, the camera reads the low power flash, determines what is need for exposure, sends a signal to the flash to set power and then sends the FP- or X- sync signal to the flash and the X-sync signal to the PC connection which fires the monolights.

That was, is. One of my associates was using a moonlight along with TTL speedlite last night. trigger for monolight plugged into PC port on 5DIII and 600EX-RT on top.

I was using 4 Godox AD600BTTL monolights in TTL with an X1Ts on top of an A7RII.

I do agree that the pre-flash is slow and not conducive to decisive moment shooting. :)

Just as its possible to see the pre-flash with a DSLR before the mirror goes up, its possible to see the pre flash in the EVF.
Got it, Thanks!

Using your sequence above … what is still a mystery is how when using a strobe triggered by a PC outlet, that the TTL on-camera flash is correct without reading the strobe's light via the pre-flash? I've used this combination with Canon, Leica, Nikon and Sony for many mobile situations including weddings, events, environmental portraits as well as a number of commercial location assignments in good light, back light, and low light … and it always works. This would suggest that the speed-light is somehow reading the strobe light and adjusts for it … which is impossible. Perhaps it has to do with the difference in power output between a strobe and speed-light … where the speed-light is almost always at maximum output even for fill because the strobe is so much more powerful? Meh, my brain is starting to smolder trying to figure this stuff out:facesmack:

If it works, just use it.

Also, using the manually set Profoto on optical and the Air-1 on TTL Wireless to trigger the Nissin speed-light, I also tried setting the A7R-II on FEL to take the pre-flash then the actual shot when ever desired, and the image was over-exposed. Non FEL is where the Profoto fires both the pre-flash and main flash in quick sequence, and that is properly exposed.

Oh well, as long as it can be made to work without a PC outlet. Too many brain cells trying to get TTL when, for my applications, it is just as easy to set the lighting manually.:)

Hope Sony eventually adds a PC port to the A7 series … or at least to the battery grip like Leica did for the M240 multi-function battery grip.

- Marc
 

dmward

Member
Got it, Thanks!

Using your sequence above … what is still a mystery is how when using a strobe triggered by a PC outlet, that the TTL on-camera flash is correct without reading the strobe's light via the pre-flash? I've used this combination with Canon, Leica, Nikon and Sony for many mobile situations including weddings, events, environmental portraits as well as a number of commercial location assignments in good light, back light, and low light … and it always works. This would suggest that the speed-light is somehow reading the strobe light and adjusts for it … which is impossible. Perhaps it has to do with the difference in power output between a strobe and speed-light … where the speed-light is almost always at maximum output even for fill because the strobe is so much more powerful? Meh, my brain is starting to smolder trying to figure this stuff out:facesmack:

If it works, just use it.
Marc. What I found when using a combination of ambient, TTL and manual monolight to light a scene was that I had to keep three exposure readings balanced. The ambient meter reading in the camera, the TTL meter reading by the camera of the speedlite and the manual exposure adjustment of the monolights. My default with Canon kit was to have the camera exposure set manually to about -1EV, keeping the F stop open to minimize ISO. I kept the shutter speed to about the old 1/focal length the help with camera shake and subject movement. Then I'd do some test shots with the monolights to get the power setting with that ISO and F stop combination. I generally kept the ETTL speedlite to 0 or minus 1/3 FEC. I always had the speedlite aimed to bounce off a wall into the subject's face. The monolight power was set so it provided the same exposure on the scene as the ambient or maybe 1/3 EV more. That permitted me to use it as a main or kicker depending on light/camera/subject position.

My wedding website if full of examples using that lighting arrangement.

Now I use the Godox AD600s in TTL mode with no speedlite on the camera. There is an article HERE describing the setup.

For commercial shooting its been manual monolights for years. Now with the AD600s I've done some work with them in TTL mode. Primarily for headshots and architectural interiors. There are some other articles on the site linked above with my observations using the lights.

Also, using the manually set Profoto on optical and the Air-1 on TTL Wireless to trigger the Nissin speed-light, I also tried setting the A7R-II on FEL to take the pre-flash then the actual shot when ever desired, and the image was over-exposed. Non FEL is where the Profoto fires both the pre-flash and main flash in quick sequence, and that is properly exposed.

Oh well, as long as it can be made to work without a PC outlet. Too many brain cells trying to get TTL when, for my applications, it is just as easy to set the lighting manually.:)

Hope Sony eventually adds a PC port to the A7 series … or at least to the battery grip like Leica did for the M240 multi-function battery grip.

- Marc
With the Godox AD600s I tested and played around with the FEL capabilities of the A7RII. I also used it for some of the Makeup artists look book sessions. It worked well for me. I have no idea how the Profoto stuff works.

I have seen some videos talking about the flash exposure lock capabilities but it sounded like a profoto feature built into the trigger. The way I understood it, the photographer takes a test shot TTL, if the lighting is right then TTL can be turned off and the lights continue to fire at whatever power setting was delivered by the TTL.

That's essentially what the FEL features does with my Sony A7RII. I also was able to do something similar with Canon 600ET-RTs and the Yongnou E3-RT transmitter/controller on a Fuji camera by doing the ETTL test shot with a Canon 5DIII. That let me use both cameras at an event lit with 600EX-RTs. The cameras, of course, need to be set the same for exposure.

Having a PC port would be useful. For my shooting the Godox X system and the Sony A7RII give me all the features I need and most of the features I can image using. I haven't used them with other camera makes but from posts I've read they seem to work as well.

Right now, my only disappointment is not being able to find Bowens S adapters that permit getting the flash tube farther into the modifier.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
My lights arrived yesterday. I'm still waiting on the hard case which should be in within the next week or 2.
 

rweissman

Member
I'll check. I remember hearing that its in the pipeline.
Realistically, I'd use an X1Ts in the hotshoe and put a 360II on a bracket if I wanted one on camera.

I've worked with a couple of photographers that used Quantums on camera but always with a bracket.

I've not tested it but I think the X1Ts should fire a 360II on a bracket.
Question: Does one need the bracket? Can a non-Sony AD360II TTL (e.g., Canon mount), be used in the Sony Transmitter hot shoe sitting on an A7R2 and be triggered wirelessly from the Sony transmitter using the Sony TTL code embedded in the Canon version of the AD360II TTL?

According to the X1Ts manual, you can turn off the firing pin (one of the function options) so as, one assumes, to use wireless only triggering and fire the flash wirelessly from the transmitter (since Sony TTL is supposed to be included in all the current shipping AD360II TTL models, right?)? Can one skip a flash bracket if one wanted to operate like an on camera (but kludgy) Quantum Trio? This wouldn't be necessary if the Sony version of the AD360II TTL were shipping, but it is not and Adorama does not know when their Streetlight for Sony will ship. Or is the AD360II too bulky or fragile for use in the transmitter's hot shoe?

Since all Godox/Streaklight flashes include Canon, Nikon and Sony protocols, it would stand to reason that this should work. But from a fragility, ergonomic or actual triggering, are there obstacles to this kind of Quantum Trio-likesolution for fast shooting at events?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but I haven't managed to find any documentation for this particular use case.
 

dmward

Member
Question: Does one need the bracket? Can a non-Sony AD360II TTL (e.g., Canon mount), be used in the Sony Transmitter hot shoe sitting on an A7R2 and be triggered wirelessly from the Sony transmitter using the Sony TTL code embedded in the Canon version of the AD360II TTL?

According to the X1Ts manual, you can turn off the firing pin (one of the function options) so as, one assumes, to use wireless only triggering and fire the flash wirelessly from the transmitter (since Sony TTL is supposed to be included in all the current shipping AD360II TTL models, right?)? Can one skip a flash bracket if one wanted to operate like an on camera (but kludgy) Quantum Trio? This wouldn't be necessary if the Sony version of the AD360II TTL were shipping, but it is not and Adorama does not know when their Streetlight for Sony will ship. Or is the AD360II too bulky or fragile for use in the transmitter's hot shoe?

Since all Godox/Streaklight flashes include Canon, Nikon and Sony protocols, it would stand to reason that this should work. But from a fragility, ergonomic or actual triggering, are there obstacles to this kind of Quantum Trio-likesolution for fast shooting at events?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but I haven't managed to find any documentation for this particular use case.
I'm not 100% sure, I'll test it with a v860IIs. Should work the same.
The thing about your idea is that the X1Ts controller/trigger is not very sturdy. I doubt that you will find a 360 is comfortable on the top of the X1T. That is why most suggested bracket for the light.

Edit: I did a test with v860IIs. It fired but not reliably with the setting put into the X1Ts. When I removed the speedlite from the X1Ts hotshoe it worked as expected. I suspect that its the proximity of the radios to one another.
 
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