The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Peculiar vignetting problem with SONY A7RII and native Zeiss Lenses

nowherean

Member
Hey guys, I have a real problem with the time lapses I've shot. It seems that Sony + Zess Loxia or Batis (basically native SONY lenses) in combination with Sony A7 apply some kind of vignetting, that really messes up the photos shot in sequence. Which spells real trouble for time-lapse people and this combo.

Here are two identical shots, the first one is 1 second exposure, the second one is 1.3 seconds. All other settings are the same. It's especially evident when playing back a time-lapse or just toggling between the two images. I'm sure some kind of software raw "correction" is being applied here by SONY. None of this happens with my Leica R lens on the sony body.

The question is what to do about this? I'm thinking about maybe shooting a white wall (like a big piece of evenly lit white paper) and then applying some kind of subtraction in Photoshop. Even if I manage to make it work, its still yet another extra step in the workflow, which slows the whole workflow down. Does this happen with other cameras / lenses, is this only a SONY thing?



 

pegelli

Well-known member
I see no pictures so can't really comment.

But if you suspect "in camera" correction to be the culprit I think there is a menu option to turn it off.

Also I'm surprised that the software correction is grossly different between the 1 and the 1.3 second exposure. Normally I think you could expect these corrections to be the same and independent from exposure time :confused:
 

nowherean

Member
Photos added.

I see no pictures so can't really comment.

But if you suspect "in camera" correction to be the culprit I think there is a menu option to turn it off.

Also I'm surprised that the software correction is grossly different between the 1 and the 1.3 second exposure. Normally I think you could expect these corrections to be the same and independent from exposure time :confused:
 

nowherean

Member
I see no pictures so can't really comment.

But if you suspect "in camera" correction to be the culprit I think there is a menu option to turn it off.

Also I'm surprised that the software correction is grossly different between the 1 and the 1.3 second exposure. Normally I think you could expect these corrections to be the same and independent from exposure time :confused:
What camera correction setting would it be? I have most of the options off, shooting RAW, totally manual, Picture Profile OFF, Long Exposure NR OFF. I don't understand this at all...
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Can you post a link to the raw files (dropbox or WeTransfer) and I'll take a look.

Which raw converter are you using, any corrections going on there?
 

nowherean

Member
Can you post a link to the raw files (dropbox or WeTransfer) and I'll take a look.

Which raw converter are you using, any corrections going on there?
Using Lightroom 6.7 and these are just straight out of the camera. This issue happens at any F-stop, exposure time is what really affects the images. ISO, F-Stop is the same.

Here is the link to the RAW files, and thank you for willing to take a look.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/78c3izgbd48lp24/AACdL1_8UknmEFTj2FguwtPIa?dl=0
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Thanks, I downloaded the file and imported them both in LR 6.7 as well as C1Pro 9.2 (I haven't downloaded/installed 9.3 yet, but I don't think that will make a difference)

In both converters I see exactly the same as you, i.e the 1.3 sec image is more vignetted vs. 1 sec image. It looks like you had a more focused light beam on the wall but I don't think that's the case.

In LR 6.7 it says in the Lens Correction module "i: Built-in Lens Profile applied". Switching the whole module off doesn't change a thing. Applying the Adobe Loxia profile changes both images to less vignetting, but the difference remains the same. Applying the standard Adobe Loxia profile to both files and then reducing the vignetting correction from 100 to 10 and increasing the EV to +0,25 (both of the of the 1 sec image) and leaving the 1,3 sec image at the default settings makes them almost equal. Also upon import the histograms are different (the 1,3 sec histogram is broader then the 1,0 sec image), making these changes makes the histograms more similar.

In C1 Pro applying the standard Loxia profile or a generic profile doesn't change any of the vignetting. So the conclusions are similar to what I see in Lightroom.

The way it looks to me is that the more extreme vignetting of the 1,3 sec shot is indeed baked into the raw file. Why this is certainly different between 1 and 1,3 sec is beyond me.

If I had a A7ii and a Loxia 21 mm I would happily repeat the test for you to see if it's a generic problem or specific to your lens and/or body, but unfortunately I don't have any of this equipment. Maybe someone else here who has the same equipment can do such a test for you.

Hope this helps.
 

nowherean

Member
Thanks, I downloaded the file and imported them both in LR 6.7 as well as C1Pro 9.2 (I haven't downloaded/installed 9.3 yet, but I don't think that will make a difference)

In both converters I see exactly the same as you, i.e the 1.3 sec image is more vignetted vs. 1 sec image. It looks like you had a more focused light beam on the wall but I don't think that's the case.

In LR 6.7 it says in the Lens Correction module "i: Built-in Lens Profile applied". Switching the whole module off doesn't change a thing. Applying the Adobe Loxia profile changes both images to less vignetting, but the difference remains the same. Applying the standard Adobe Loxia profile to both files and then reducing the vignetting correction from 100 to 10 and increasing the EV to +0,25 (both of the of the 1 sec image) and leaving the 1,3 sec image at the default settings makes them almost equal. Also upon import the histograms are different (the 1,3 sec histogram is broader then the 1,0 sec image), making these changes makes the histograms more similar.

In C1 Pro applying the standard Loxia profile or a generic profile doesn't change any of the vignetting. So the conclusions are similar to what I see in Lightroom.

The way it looks to me is that the more extreme vignetting of the 1,3 sec shot is indeed baked into the raw file. Why this is certainly different between 1 and 1,3 sec is beyond me.

If I had a A7ii and a Loxia 21 mm I would happily repeat the test for you to see if it's a generic problem or specific to your lens and/or body, but unfortunately I don't have any of this equipment. Maybe someone else here who has the same equipment can do such a test for you.

Hope this helps.
In real world images that I'm observing from my time-lapses, this vignetting is also altering color on the images. I can't seem to match the images enough to make the jump go away. Sure I can bring them close enough together, but it's not perfect. I'm starting to think that SONY a7 is not really suitable for time lapses with native lenses.

I just called SONY and they will be calling me back with this, maybe I should also call Zeiss...

What a time-wasting headache this is... Thank you again for looking into this issue with me.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
What a time-wasting headache this is... Thank you again for looking into this issue with me.
My pleasure to help, you always learn something.

I don't mind software corrections to get better results from certain lenses, but I agree with you it should be possible to turn everything OFF so you can adjust fully manual yourself in your program of choice. Not being able to switch it off together with inconsistent application can indeed drive you nuts. Hope Sony/Zeiss can help you solve this bug.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Hey guys, I have a real problem with the time lapses I've shot. It seems that Sony + Zess Loxia or Batis (basically native SONY lenses) in combination with Sony A7 apply some kind of vignetting, that really messes up the photos shot in sequence. Which spells real trouble for time-lapse people and this combo.

Here are two identical shots, the first one is 1 second exposure, the second one is 1.3 seconds. All other settings are the same. It's especially evident when playing back a time-lapse or just toggling between the two images. I'm sure some kind of software raw "correction" is being applied here by SONY. None of this happens with my Leica R lens on the sony body.

The question is what to do about this? I'm thinking about maybe shooting a white wall (like a big piece of evenly lit white paper) and then applying some kind of subtraction in Photoshop. Even if I manage to make it work, its still yet another extra step in the workflow, which slows the whole workflow down. Does this happen with other cameras / lenses, is this only a SONY thing?



What's the aperture value on this shot? Many fast lenses vignette slightly if wide open. Does it vignette at say f/5.6 or smaller? If so maybe the camera is not doing lens corrections.I can't see the camera "correcting" to apply vignetting.
 

nowherean

Member
This particular example was shot with Loxia 21 at F11 (both shots of course) My time-lapses are messed up the same way at F8. While I figured out how to fix it (pain in the ***!!!) I'm convinced it's an actual firmware bug at a RAW level. Since all cameras process and apply whatever "look" to RAW files prior to writing them to a card, I believe this is a freak mess up on ZEISS / SONY side. I have already called both companies, but waiting for their specialists to get back to me.
 

nowherean

Member
Right, forgot to mention. EFSC is ON, BUT it doesn't play any role in this issue, as I have tested for that as well. I get the same vignetting result unfortunately.
 

mbroomfield

New member
Any update from Sony yet?

You could try a pretty simple test to see if it's a firmware bug that's baking in a bad profile/vignetting to the raw by breaking the connection to the camera so that the A7RII body doesn't know the lens (and hence can't identify a profile). You could do this one of 2 ways;

1) Stop the lens down to the value you want to use. Disconnect the lens by rotating it a few degrees after depressing the release button. Do this while the camera is on and watch the F stop value on the screen while rotating (be careful not to touch the aperture ring). When the contact is no longer made the F stop value switches to F--

2) Remove the lens and tape over the contacts with some thin tape

I have the A7R2 and the 21mm Loxia and tried 1) and it works. Unfortunately I have no access to an evenly lit wall so I can't repeat the test you ran, but I'd be interested if you were to try it and compare to the scene while the camera knows the lens.

Regards
 

nowherean

Member
I did a similar test with my Leica R 28mm lens with an adapter. No vignetting at all. I can of course try to do the same with the Loxia as you have suggested, and I'm pretty sure once the camera doesn't know the lens, it won't apply that silly "correction". BTW called Zeiss few days ago to resolve it, was promised they'd call me back and they never did. Same with SONY. There goes customer support by both companies. Tomorrow will call again...
 

mbroomfield

New member
Thanks for the update. I'd be interested if you have time to see what happens at some "typical" shutter speeds in daylight. To be honest I think I might have seen a colour cast like this using a 24mm Batis. Daylight and short exposures, no ND filter. I wouldn't have noticed the vignetting and only noticed the colour because the shots were in heavy snow with soft, even light last winter. I need to see if I can find a location to test the Loxia and Batis.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Nowherean, Thanks for the posts. I have seen color casts from Loxia 21 (I do not own one) in the images posted here ("fun with the A7.." thread). No discussion was possible (IIRC) as queries about it was met with very defensive/dismissive replies.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I have no answer to your question, unfortunately.

What I can on the raw data that there is some pretty intensive lens-cast on the camera lens combo.

Screen Shot 2016-10-17 at 07.31.58.jpg

So, it seems that quite intensive LCC correction has been made in the camera. That doesn't explain why you get different vignetting.

I would think that this a price you pay for the small size of the Loxia, it is probably designed in a way that requires LCC-correction and it seems that it can be inconsistent frame to frame.

Best regards
Erik
 

CSP

New member
hi, have you turned off lens correction in the camera settings ? vignetting correction is applied to raw file too !
 

nowherean

Member
All lens or any other corrections are turned OFF. I have done more tests again. The issue gets better with the latest firmware update on the SONY and with lens corrections turned OFF, but it doesn't go away completely. Some color cast remains, particularly blueish color cast on the sides, where it's more pronounced in the corners. This affects both Batis and Loxia lenses.

I've shot dozens of time-lapses and now I have to do very extensive retouching in order to no have luminance jumps in my frames. Very frustrating and time-consuming affair.
 
Top