Sony a900/Leica M8

[Bill_Green]

I'm in roughly the same boat with the M8, Sony A900 and Canon 5D on the table. I have come to the conclusion that I need to part with my beloved DMR for something lighter. I have been wrestling with the decision for a long time and seriously considered MF digital because I have not seen any current camera systems that really improve on the DMR, but unfortunately right now shedding weight and bulk is more important than gaining image quality. Pretty much anything is on the table, but the same systems you are considering keep rising to the top of my list.

 

[dhsimmonds]

I'm in roughly the same boat with the M8, Sony A900 and Canon 5D on the table. I have come to the conclusion that I need to part with my beloved DMR for something lighter. I have been wrestling with the decision for a long time and seriously considered MF digital because I have not seen any current camera systems that really improve on the DMR, but unfortunately right now shedding weight and bulk is more important than gaining image quality. Pretty much anything is on the table, but the same systems you are considering keep rising to the top of my list.

Well as Leica have apparently announced that they do not now intend to continue developing the R10 and the DMR is now well over 5 year old technology with spares shortages and ongoing service problems....the writing is on the wall for you I think?

Leica intend to develop a FF compact with EVF viewfinder. If it is in the same quality league as the Leica D2 it will be a winner..........but it won't be a reflex camera with all the flexibility that a reflex offers.

The A900 and whatever Sony develop next for us with Zeiss lenses is the nearest we can hope to get to what we were hoping for from Leica. The S2 will be expensive, too heavy and with bulky lenses for me personally, although I am sure the image quality will be breathtaking.

 

[ptomsu]

Instead of sinkung my money into an S2 I would happily buy a Phase back adn the Phamiya system and a tech camera. I am sure the total will be cheaper than a decent S2 system

 

[dhsimmonds]

Peter, yes, reluctantly I would agree with you on your MFDB choice. The Phase would also provide some future proofing with their excellent upgrade roadmap.

I am only reluctant as I would have liked to see Leica survive but I am beginning to have some serious doubts about their future survival plans. They reckon to sell 10,000 (according to recent statement made on LUF) of their S2 in two years..........good luck to them as I doubt if Mamiya, Hasselblad or Phase One will let that happen!

 

[Georg Baumann]

Hi Dave,

I guess you misunderstood something.

In the Interview with Stefan Daniel apparently he spoke of an entire market consisting of 10,000 per annum, of which they target double digit figures for year one.

I think that his assessment of the entire market volume is way too optimistic, and conversations about the same with Sinar and Phase one would lead me to believe that the entire market is more in the low to mid 6K figure per annum realistically.

I think the video will be up by the end of the week.

 

[ptomsu]

I do agree that the total market worldwide for MFDBs is in the range of a few thousand a year. Which means if Leica can get 10% in the first year or so this are around 500 - 1000 S2 cameras. But this is an optimistic view of the situation.

Given their attitude and their communication skills and the history of launching products in the digital area developed by Leica which work without flaws I would say the numbers will be much lower.

And I agree as well that I do not see any reason why Hassi and Phase would like and allow Leica to start eating their market.

 

[Georg Baumann]

Well, I sure hope LEICA will succeed, seriously. It would be a very sad day to see them in really deep trouble. I have a lot of time for a company that established the "LEICA Freedom Train" during the dark ages in the NAZI regime, family being interrogated by the Gestapo etc.

A story, surprisingly unknown amongst many photorgaphers I came across.

As for the S2 and eating away on Phase and Hassy marketshares, it is possible in my view, but this entirely depends on 1. The system to work smoothly and 2. probably the most crucial, the entry level price, and the latter they might just get wrong if they operate on too optimistic values as this interview has shown.

I cross my fingers for them.

On a side note, it puzzles my why they do not take much better advantage on the aspekt of sealed body and lenses. I sure as hell would advertise it as a breakthrough for landscape photographers, to isolate this to studio, Glamour etc. is an error of judgement in my view.

 

[fotografz]

I am beginning to soften my view of the S2 ... from overly practical ... to let's see what it does.

Hopefully, Leica's ace in the hole will be, as it's always been, ... the optics. If these new lenses deliver it will be the reason to look at the system.
Yes, price will play a role, but I doubt anyone really believes anything from Leica will be on par with the competition in terms of price ... never was, probably never will be. People (including me) are ponying up for some ferociously expensive M lenses, so if these new MF optics deliver in spades, it'll be a different story than speculations without seeing anything tangible yet.

Might be in for a surprise folks. I hope so.

 

[jonoslack]

I agree with Marc
I think that the remark about the 'lux lenses selling more units than the summarits is telling.

Clearly the S2 must come up with the goods, but if it really does, then I think there will be enough people to buy it. The combination of the glass, the simplicity of the system, the weatherproofing and the gestalt will all mitigate in their favour. . . . If it's good.

Everybody is saying that it's the price which will determine whether it's a success or not. But I think it's the profit they make that'll decide whether it succeeds or fails, and as long as it is more expensive than the obvious competition I'm not sure how price sensitive the sales will be . . . . but the profits sure will be price sensitive!

it's the old story, if you're selling something that it costs you $95 to make, and you want to make $1000 then if you sell it at $100 you have to make 200 of them, if you sell it for $190 then you only need to sell 10. If you transfer that logic to the S2, I don't think the difference between €19000 and €10000 would represent anything faintly resembling a 20 fold increase in sales (I doubt if it would even double them).

It does have to be good though (did I say that before)

 

[Eoin]

I shook my head in disgust when I heard the price of the new Noctilux and Summilux. Long gone are the days when Leica was (reasonably) affordable and one didn't mind paying that bit extra for the pleasure.

You'd want to be earning serious dosh from your photography to be dropping £10-19k on the S2 and who knows how much more for a set of lenses. It's a bit OTT for anyone except a true professional IMO. And I don't care how good it is :grin:

 

[jonoslack]

I shook my head in disgust when I heard the price of the new Noctilux and Summilux. Long gone are the days when Leica was (reasonably) affordable and one didn't mind paying that bit extra for the pleasure.

You'd want to be earning serious dosh from your photography to be dropping £10-19k on the S2 and who knows how much more for a set of lenses. It's a bit OTT for anyone except a true professional IMO. And I don't care how good it is :grin:

But the prices for the new nocti and 'luxes was exactly my point . . . they're apparently selling in more quantity than the summarits. . . .

Someone must be buying them (surely it isn't just Marc?):ROTFL:

 

[Eoin]

I think they meant 35 lux v's 35 summarit and 50 lux v's 50 summarit. At least these focal lengths are somewhat reasonable.
If they were referring to the 21 & 24 lux's, then I'd expect demand to be strong since it's so new and many will want to upgrade.

 

[jonoslack]

I think they meant 35 lux v's 35 summarit and 50 lux v's 50 summarit. At least these focal lengths are somewhat reasonable.
If they were referring to the 21 & 24 lux's, then I'd expect demand to be strong since it's so new and many will want to upgrade.

In that case I reiterate my point . . . It's not price sensitive!

 

[Jamesmd]

Do you really think photos will be 20something pounds better ?

I understand pros to use it but , for a hobby , its only logical when you have 20something poket money , no ?, not my case

I would like one , yes of course .

james

 

[cmb_]

Some people do have 20 something pocket money and if Leica has done their marketing research correctly they know that a certain number of those people can't wait to give it to Leica!!!

 

[fotografz]

Do you really think photos will be 20something pounds better ?

I understand pros to use it but , for a hobby , its only logical when you have 20something poket money , no ?, not my case

I would like one , yes of course .

james

Some people drop oodles and boodles of cash into hobbies like sailing and race cars ... in comparison this is chicken feed ... well, maybe not 10K for a Noctilux that I'm pretty sure I'd never be able to focus anyway :ROTFL:

 

[Eoin]

In that case I reiterate my point . . . It's not price sensitive!

In this case I'll reiterate my point, it's price sensitive for ME! :ROTFL:

 

[Jamesmd]

yes , I'm sure all that money is out there waiting to go for an S , but I think lost will go to people that simply want the best and can pay it with no problems (i'm always talking of non pros) I bet there are quite a big lot of M with lovely lenses in the box . That have been left because some PS lovely little camera does its job , And I understand it , you have the money , you ask what's the best , you buy it and then you realize it something not so easy to do and you keep it . You get your 100megapixell camera you bought last time , not long ago , and put it in your pocket because it small and does great shots.

no ?

James

 

[Jamesmd]

I would say , all of us in forums ... are a very little part of camera buyers .

People that aren't crazy like us , buy the camera to take their photos . and the easier de best . the smaller the best , and now days its difficult to find a camera that wont satisfy normal people , not us crazy people that look at the pixels before we look at the shot ( just a way of talking )

 

[jonoslack]

Hi James
I quite agree with both your posts.
If their target quantities for the first year are in the 1,000 or so . . I think there might actually be enough collectors worldwide to fulfill that quantity.

There are plenty of people who can simply go and spend that kind of money on a car / camera / boat whatever, and compared to smart cars and boats it's pretty small change - and they're much more likely to buy an S2 kit than a Hassleblad or Phase outfit.

Unfortunately I'm not one of those people:ROTFL:

Hell, I can't even afford a Noctilux . . or a 24 'lux