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Just in case you haven't noticed: A850

R

Ranger 9

Guest
I was wondering if in fact the A850 and A900 are the same cameras - with the A850 having a little masking to cut the viewfinder to 98% and a firmware change to lower the max frame rate to 3fps. After all, why redesign these points when you are already tooled up for the A900?
In addition to the prism (a 100%-coverage prism actually has to be a bit larger to allow for tolerances) they also save money on assembly.

Having 100% viewfinder coverage makes it necessary to adjust the viewfinder mask on each individual camera to get an exact match to the image area of that specific camera. Usually that has to be done by eye/hand, meaning more technicians are needed and the production line runs more slowly. Even that 2% error margin allowed by a 98%-coverage finder is probably enough to allow much more automation of the assembly process.

The 3fps/5fps difference in frame rates amounts to a 40% reduction in throughput, meaning less buffer is needed and wider tolerances are allowable in the performance of the chips -- again, it's possible to save quite a bit of money that way when spread over a large production run of cameras.

It sounds to me as if Sony has done a very smart job of spec'ing these cameras to allow them to be sold profitably at a reasonable spread of price points.
 

JimU

Not Available
um, the old KM 28-75 is a tamron design anyways.

ranger_9, since i got my a900 last october, i picked up an 85RS in december and a 200HS in april, so i pretty much picked up ur old line. were you really impressed with the 100/2 given u had the 85/1.4?
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
ranger_9, since i got my a900 last october, i picked up an 85RS in december and a 200HS in april, so i pretty much picked up ur old line. were you really impressed with the 100/2 given u had the 85/1.4?
Of the two, I used the 85/1.4 more, mostly for the maximum aperture -- but the 100/2 has a lot of advantages if you don't need the f/1.4 aperture. For one thing, it's much more compact -- uses 55mm filters instead of 72mm. And although it didn't get sharpness test scores quite as good as the 85's, I recall it as still being quite sharp, and very crisp-looking because of its microcontrast. Ever used one of those old 105/2.5 Nikkors? It's kind of like that, IMO.

Another worthwhile Minolta lens that seems to be cheap and unloved is the 135/2.8 from the original generation of Maxxum lenses. If you like a slightly longer lens for headshots, it's worth investigating. It's light and compact, and the focus mechanism was internal and slick as a skate wheel, making for very fast AF. It also focuses down to about 1 meter, which is closer than average for ye olde 135/2.8s.
 

jsparks

Member
I have one of the 135/2.8 lenses on my A900. I think it has higher microcontrast than the other Minolta lenses I have. There is a crispness to the photos from the 135 that I don't see from my other lenses (I don't have any Zeiss lenses yet, just Minolta ones). I also find the Minolta 28-75/2.8 a really sharp, crisp lens, especially at the long end. If the new Sony 28-75 is based on the Minolta/Tamron version, it won't be a bad thing. I keep thinking I'll get the Zeiss 24-70 at some point, but every time I've seen one, I'm put off by how much bigger and heavier it is than the 28-75. I won't give up the 28-75 for that reason alone, even if I do someday get the Zeiss. The 28-75 is a really nice walking around lens.

John
 

Lars

Active member
Isn't Sony's market positioning a little strange here? Sure with a lower price tag A850 will sell more than A900, but how much of that market share cannibalizes on A900 market share?
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Isn't Sony's market positioning a little strange here? Sure with a lower price tag A850 will sell more than A900, but how much of that market share cannibalizes on A900 market share?
My guess: The A900 probably isn't even being made any longer. Products like these are made in batches, and presumably they have enough in stock to get them through until an A950 or A1000 is launched. The profit for Sony isn't in the bodies but in the lenses. As a relative newbie to the market, what matters is gaining market shares.

There's a reason why Nikon and Canon are selling their top product for much higher prices; it's the only way to make money in a low volume market. Very simple mathematics. Sony can't afford that luxury. By selling as cheap as possible, they get several advantages:

- They gain market shares
- They increase volume, lowering the production price per unit
- They sell more lenses
- They gain momentum and create a positive feeling within their organisation
- Each production run spends less time in the warehouse, lowering capital cost as well as enabling Sony to launch a new model whenever it's ready. (Remember the Olympus E-1? It took ages before Olympus understood that they had to dump the price to make space for a new model.)

For a photographer who buys cameras at this level, a typical selection of lenses will cost much more than a couple of camera bodies, so the price of those lenses should in theory be more important than the price of the bodies. But the human brain doesn't work that way. It tends to think something like "$1,999.99 for a 24.5MP full frame camera body! Wow, that's a bargain! I'll save $6,000.01 on a D3X. Better buy one before it's too late :lecture: ."

All the psychologists, priests, philosophers, bean counters, communication experts etc. at Sony's marketing department probably figured this out before they acquired Konica-Minolta. They also knew that it's a gamble, but selling high-end cameras cheap is one of the smallest gambles of this operation. The cost of setting up production lines, establishing DSLR departments in Sony shops worldwide, advertising, logistics etc. are much more expensive, and without gaining a position in the market, those monies are lost anyway.

High-end camera bodies is not where the big profits are for Sony, but they need to sell them to position themselves, so that they can sell large volumes of low and mid end cameras. I believe it's a calculated expense.

Notice another thing:
While Sony's low-end bodies look very slick, the high-end bodies look much more utilitarian, and even more so than the Canon and Nikon equivalents. I believe that's a marketing decision as well. If the camera looks as "ugly" as the A850/900, it must be a "pro" camera, since professional photographers presumably don't care what their cameras look like, as long as functionality and image quality is great. It's kind of the camera industry's version of a Jeep.

The guys at Sony know what they are doing, and they will most probably succeed. $1,999.99 for a 24.5MP full frame camera body! Wow, that's a bargain! I'll save $6,000.01 on a D3X. I want one :D
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
... and it works. Since an increasing part of my income comes from photography, I need more resolution for studio work. With Nikon, there's only one upgrade that gives enough improvement: the D3X, a camera that costs $7,400 here in Thailand. That's the exact price of two A850 bodies, one ZA 24-70 and one G 70-200. Add a new adapter to the Metz and transmitter for the strobes, and I'm mostly there.

Conclusion: If I need that kind of resolution, changing system won't cost me a dime, and I still get to keep all my Nikon/Fuji gear if I choose to do so. All thanks to Sony's bargain basement pricing of the A850 body.

Will Sony worry that I didn't buy an A900 body? Of course not, simply because those who were ready to enter the system at that price point have already done so. Now, they are after those who are a little bit more reluctant, but might make the decision at a lower level.

And next year, they will launch an A1000 at $5,000 with rotating gyro coffee processor and quadrophonic MP3 player, and guess who'll upgrade :LOL:
 

Lars

Active member
Good points, Jorgen. Yep Sony isn't new to product positioning.

Meanwhile, I'm just leaning back and waiting for Sony's strategy to put pressure on the other guys. I'd like to add a Nikon high-res body in a year or two.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Good points, Jorgen. Yep Sony isn't new to product positioning.

Meanwhile, I'm just leaning back and waiting for Sony's strategy to put pressure on the other guys. I'd like to add a Nikon high-res body in a year or two.
Me too. A D700X with dual card capture like the D300s.

But a higher ISO Pro level Sony body would trump that :thumbup:
 
Jorgen, great points but one guy who is very close to Sony and often under NDA(Carl Garrard of alphamountworld.com), has noted repeatedly that Sony is still producing the a900 and that "it isn't going anywhere". That may only remain true for a year or two but is a far cry from "probably isn't being made any longer".

Also, FWIW, I would have bought the 900 even if the 850 were available and I don't make my living from photography. It didn't hurt that I already had a few thousand $$ worth of good FF glass. ;)
 

douglasf13

New member
Yeah, Sony is the king of market segmentation. It wouldn't surprise me if we see an A800, A850, A900, and A950 all at the same time in the future!
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Jorgen, great points but one guy who is very close to Sony and often under NDA(Carl Garrard of alphamountworld.com), has noted repeatedly that Sony is still producing the a900 and that "it isn't going anywhere". That may only remain true for a year or two but is a far cry from "probably isn't being made any longer".
Nobody knows except Sony, obviously, but if the Sony cameras are indeed made in batches, and I would be very surprised if anything other than the top sellers are made on a continuous basis, that means that it is not a question of being in production or not, but if they have made enough cameras to last the entire product life. The fact that a camera is a current model, doesn't necessarily mean that it's in production.

The safest indication that this has happened, is when the model goes on "fire sale", but with the lower priced A850 already in the market, that probably won't happen with the A900. The only way we can find out what the situation is, would be to inspect the factory and the warehouse. I don't think it's likely that we'll be allowed to do that.

But since the A850 and A900 are probably being manufactured on the same production line, it's very unlikely that they are able to make A900s at all during the introduction of the A850, a camera that must have been in production for several months already to satisfy the initial demand.

The A700 on the other hand, which is also a current model, is clearly not being made anymore. It's selling here in Thailand for under $1,000 including 7% VAT, and there's no reason to do that unless they want to clear stock.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
Sony drops the other shoe

Speaking of new Sonys, I just read the press release on the A550, their new APS-C-size camera.

For someone like myself, who actually prefers APS-C to 36x24, this is a very interesting new piece of gear!

It seems that while everyone else is rushing to get onto the HD video bandwagon, Sony is adding well-thought-out features that are both novel and genuinely useful to still photography. The two that caught my attention on the A550 were:

-- Face detection that works with the phase-detect autofocus system (rather than just off contrast detection), a claimed world's first that means it should actually be fast. From my personal perspective: At last, maybe there's a camera whose AF can tell the difference between the ballerinas and the scenery behind them!

-- Magnified live view for critical manual focusing, activated by pressing one dedicated button (the feature we all wish our Panasonic G1s had!)​

Consider that the 550 also has an articulated high-resolution LCD, 7-fps shooting speed, and ISO to 12,800 (although noise remains to be seen) and it seems, at least on paper, to seem to stack up favorably against, say, the Nikon D300s... at just over half the price.

If Nikon and Canon aren't hearing hoofbeats, they should be...
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Re: Sony drops the other shoe

Speaking of new Sonys, I just read the press release on the A550, their new APS-C-size camera.

For someone like myself, who actually prefers APS-C to 36x24, this is a very interesting new piece of gear!

It seems that while everyone else is rushing to get onto the HD video bandwagon, Sony is adding well-thought-out features that are both novel and genuinely useful to still photography. The two that caught my attention on the A550 were:

-- Face detection that works with the phase-detect autofocus system (rather than just off contrast detection), a claimed world's first that means it should actually be fast. From my personal perspective: At last, maybe there's a camera whose AF can tell the difference between the ballerinas and the scenery behind them!

-- Magnified live view for critical manual focusing, activated by pressing one dedicated button (the feature we all wish our Panasonic G1s had!)​

Consider that the 550 also has an articulated high-resolution LCD, 7-fps shooting speed, and ISO to 12,800 (although noise remains to be seen) and it seems, at least on paper, to seem to stack up favorably against, say, the Nikon D300s... at just over half the price.

If Nikon and Canon aren't hearing hoofbeats, they should be...
As a side note to this, if anyone looking to move into a more capable DSLR asks my opinion, I have pretty much stopped chanting the Nikon/Canon mantra and have started recommending Sony. I mean, come on! A 24 meg FF camera for under 2K? Who would've thunk it? :thumbs:

I'd take care in maligning the D300s however. It's a tank of a well proven little camera, that has quietly moved forward to be a serious body for the wedding and event shooters out there by adding dual card capture. I also would not under-estimate the draw video is starting to have on consumers. It's a feature I couldn't care less about, but a Billion computer savvy, Blackberry/iPhone toting, young parents would beg to differ with me.

Personally, I'd never go back to a crop frame DSLR from anyone. I anxiously await the true Sony Pro flagship body, and a FF higher ISO version that can compete with a D700 or D5-II in low light, plus some Zeiss fast wide primes. Sony's hook are sunk into me deeply, but to keep them there will take some new stuff on the high end. My hopes are high.

-Marc
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
This looks the perfect backup body for the A850; the A850 is slow, with lots of resolution, the A800 is fast, with less resolution but more reach.

I have seen some high ISO samples from the A550 btw. Very impressive. Will post the link as soon as I am back home. Apart from that, the camera looks very plasticy, and the the viewfinder, although improved, is not much to write home about. Nice live view though. Third body?
 

Terry

New member
I have seen some high ISO samples from the A550 btw. Very impressive. Will post the link as soon as I am back home. Apart from that, the camera looks very plasticy, and the the viewfinder, although improved, is not much to write home about. Nice live view though. Third body?
Reichman was not impressed with the build quality/viewfinder either....

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a550-first.shtml

It is interesting when I was trying to decided if I wanted a second A900 body, I played with an A700. It didn't feel nearly as solid in my hands and when I fired off a couple of shots the mirror/shutter combo (not sure which it is) just didn't feel the same as the A900. Not trying to be a snob (but I guess I am) but I just liked the A900 better. I'm glad the A850 is so similar to the 900 and I sincerely hope that if there is a Sony higher ISO, faster body that it is with the A900/850 type construction.

Actually, what worries me about Sony a bit is that the high end is so much better than their lower models and that they stay committed at the high end to this quality level.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
Apart from that, the camera looks very plasticy, and the the viewfinder, although improved, is not much to write home about. Nice live view though.
I'm guessing, on theoretical grounds, that Sony's "Quick Live View" (which uses a separate sensor over the eyepiece rather than taking its signal off the main sensor) imposes limits on how good the optical finder can be.

The Quick Live View feature requires a porroprism (aka "pentamirror") with a movable surface to direct the image either out the eyepiece or into the Quick Live View sensor. Porroprisms have improved a lot over the years, but they still don't provide as bright a view as a solid-glass pentaprism.

(Old-timers who remember the Ricoh Singlex TLS 401 camera, which had switchable eye-level and top-level eyepieces, will recognize this as an ancestor of the Sony system. The TLS 401 also used a porroprism with a pivoting surface to switch the view directions, and reviewers of the day noted that its finder was noticeably dimmer than other Ricoh models with solid glass prisms. I suspect we're unlikely to see Sony make a 36x24 "nostalgia format" DSLR with Quick Live View for the same reason -- the larger porroprism needed would be proportionally even dimmer than it is on the APS-C-size cameras.)

Still, giving up some optical-finder quality to get improved live view is going to be a sensible tradeoff for many new-to-DSLR users who likely will use live view more and the optical finder less than those of us who started photography during the film era. As David Kilpatrick pointed out in this Photoclub Alpha article last year:

They [Sony] have already stated they want to capture the digicam upgrading market, younger users and female users. All come from a background experience where the live view composition on a screen is the only thing they know. They expect to find a DSLR able to do the same.
 
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