he's not all wrong in his comments. Some of these are lame to be sure.
Seriously? No one bothered to check the metadata to see that these were the behind-the-scenes snapshots with a Canon G10 meant to go up on the blog to show what they were up to?
I have no idea if they posted any of the "good pictures" from the fancy cameras, or if those are just snaps, but heck, if they can't make good snaps with point-and-shoots, throwing more pixels at it just makes it worse.
It's irresponsible and reminds me a bit of Glenn Beck.
"I'm not saying these are from the P65+ or are serious photographers rather than behind the scene snaps - I'm just asking questions!"
There were some fantastic shots at that event. I'm sure there will be many great examples posted once everyone has made it home and has a chance to work up finals.
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Whoever took those snapshots would have benefited from a processing class from Doug, Jack, or Guy.
I have never met either KR or MR personally, but I have interacted many times with MR via email. From those exchanges I would say MR seems to be a pretty decent stand-up guy with a passion for photography. I have no idea about who KR is, but a rant like that makes him sound pretty immature --- like a kid with low self-esteem trying to build themselves up by tearing somebody else down...
I feel this discussion fits better in the Sunset Bar, so I am moving it there.
I prefer to spend that much money on myself for a trip, can't spend that grands money just for a workshop if it will not add much to me more than what i have already, sometimes i feel that there are many workshops are so pricey and the lecturers or assistants are the most benefit people there than the attendees or students themselves, for outdoor workshops that worth thousands for a workshop i can go alone with decent good enough gear with good time of the day and checking all the rules and conditions and set the camera for good exposure, composition, color, view,.... etc will be more worth than dump that thousands on a workshop and hoping i will be another Ansel Adams next day, i took a 1-to-1 workshop or say photo tour with an experienced photographer in Scotland who is using only film cameras including medium format and shooting for over 25 years and i was using only 5D that time and it was my second year in photography and that workshop was for only one day, didn't see much he gave or taught me anyway, and at the end we ended up with almost same quality level of photos, i paid 160GBP, so what will another days workshops cost over $1000 will give me more?
I was going to attend some workshops locally or even internationally, but the end i found that i have to pay thousands for the photographers and at the end he will tell me what i will do it alone myself in fact without him with maybe little more information that can be easily got on books or online, so then is it realy worthy to pay him that much? Lucky him to buy more gear then and to travel more and has his own experience, ofcourse will not meaning all photographers but i really found that i learn it myself hard way and do it myself is more saving than let others teaching me and spend a lot for them.
I was looking for taking a workshop about studio lighting and shooting in studio in NY when i was there last October, almost many workshops there were more than my trip budget itself, how crazy it is?!!!!!!!!!
I think it depends on the person. I know there are places I've gone on workshops that I would never do on my own. For instance, I probably wouldn't have gone out in old town San Juan on my own in the pre-dawn hours, I probably would not have stood outside by myself waiting for the sun to rise in sub zero windy conditions in Moab. When I went to Iceland more than half of our trip was listed as "DO NOT DRIVE HERE" on the rental car map. The camaraderie among the participants is a very nice part of the workshop experience.
Now for the learning aspects, all the different workshops are geared towards different goals. If I were looking to get into medium format and I was unsure if it was the right direction to go on, having the gear at your disposal for 5 straight days is the best demo you could ever do. Being at one of Jack and Guy's workshops and having access to any Leica lens I want to try is awesome. I still haven't tackled the classroom time. There is nothing quite like getting instruction on how to process an image from someone who was there, saw the light, knows the right colors.
Finally, it is fascinating to see the work of all the participants to see how each person interpreted the scene, what camera angle they decided on, how they made the picture, where they wandered off to and what they "saw" that was interesting. If your only experience is one on one instructor for a day, there is a lot more to the experience of a multi day workshop.
Last edited by Terry; 18th November 2009 at 04:36.
Rockwell seems full of sour grapes, as usual (i am not a fan of his blathering, if you can't tell).
i am sure he wishes he could attract a group like that and have them pay that kind of money... instead, he typically writes up bland stuff (with occasional links to sites that have a little more meat) and hopes people will donate via PayPal. and i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, simply that i've never found his "reviews" helpful enough that have made me want to dig into my pockets.
i think it's rude of him to blast workshops as well. they are not my bag (i honestly don't have the money right now) but i know many people who swear by them and have gotten huge benefits from the experience. who is Rockwell to say that they are trash? that the images are? has he ever put up a decent one himself? i really think that is irresponsible of him because many people do read his site and take him seriously... it's a pity.
Last edited by cam; 18th November 2009 at 01:21.
I think some of what KR writes is useful, and he writes reasonably well. There is no denying, however, that he has a weak filter for writing this sort of trash.
It's almost certainly part of his plan for driving traffic to his site. This thread alone is going to make him a decent chunk of cash via ads and affiliate income. KR's site gets top billing on Google for nearly every Nikon item he covers. He is no doubt making a very comfortable living off of that site.
The post referenced in this thread is really bad though, even for KR.
Wow, political OVER-correctness is alive and rampant getting in the way of enjoying some sarcasm...
Those samples are typical of any workshop, specially ones dealing with models and even worse lighting. Many are first timers trying to learn something, no news here, everyone who's organized or participated in a workshop knows this and there's no shame in it, we've all been there at some point. Personally I don't see him bashing MR, he's stating the obvious in a not so pc manner; equipment don't make photographs!
I think it is in bad taste no doubt that Ken rants about someone else in the industry. That to me is taking food off someone's table and that I can't agree with. A rant like this just loses ones credibility but this is how this guy makes his money by being controversial good for him but I personally don't go for it. I went to a bullying class last night with my son for a inappropriate saying he said in school. Honestly this fits that bullying label that we talked about last night to the letter.
BTW I think workshops are much more educational and the learning experience much quicker than going out on your own. I am basically self taught but workshops are a great avenue to learn a very wide diverse set techniques in a very short time. But you knew I would say that because Jack and I run them as well. But truth be told I have seen people from day 1 workshop improve drastically by the time they leave that workshop also for those that keep coming back like we enjoy very much those folks rock now and are damn good, I mean damn good. It all depends on the workshop you attend and who is putting them on. Some are get togethers but some you actually are taught. Rather see people not buy that lens but learn more first and I'm a gear whore.
Absolutely! If that is what he is trying to say, good.Equipment don't make photographs!
You are absolutely correct about what a workshop is all about. If everyone churns out "perfect" images, they should not be going to any workshop as they will learn nothing.
What appears to be the gist of that rant is: "I offer something better than him".
Which isn't entirely wrong in terms of advertisement. Many many companies and corporations have done that directly or subliminally over the years.
However, when dealing small groups of people with personal interactions, that corporate strategy seem out of place.
Would I be interested in going to a workshop if there will be time spent on what others do instead of what I can get out of the time and money I spend?
In general and not specific to any workshop or any specific images but to the concept of beginners in these expensive high powered over tech'd workshops, etc.
It is interesting that people who are churning out images just short of medicore or worse, beginners or the untalented, are using or thinking of using equipment that top level professionals cannot afford and most cannot justify. That such high level gear is being marketed to such people is, well it's not immoral in a free market, all power to the sellers for finding such a good market to work with, but ludicrous it certainly is. Skill should come a long way before the decision to need a certain equipment set. It's being very firmly marketed the other way round though.
Personally I find it as 'posing' as rich kids in sports cars that they could not begin to need or require based on their driving skills.
In the real world there are very few who are stretching their photographic skills and needs to require more than a 5D mkII. Period. The idea of beginners attending a workshop where many then put in an order for a 40 or 60 megapixel digital back speaks very loudly about the reason for buying those tools. Posing.
Then again I feel the same way about most of the 5D mkII buyers who never print larger than A3. Most pro's I know are either using a D700/D3 or a MFDB and only then if they absolutely have to....
I know why I want to upgrade my 5D's to 1Ds mkIII's. I know because I'm a pro who knows what he needs to do a job or, not less importantly, what he needs to make his life easier when shooting a job. In this particular case it's nothing to do with the megapixels which are irrellevant. I wonder how many of these beginners or photographic wannabees on manufacturer sponsered workshops are being told that MFDB's are very hard to use, expensive overkill for what they will need to do for the next decade or so until they feel personally that their present gear is holding them back. I don't know, maybe they are, I sure hope so..
Earlier this morning I clicked the link to the KR blog out of curiosity. Without studying it carefully or parsing everything perfectly I came away with the impression that the samples he linked were indeed taken by workshop participants with MF cameras. It wasn't until I returned to this thread and discovered the truth about the samples that I realized I'd been manipulated. OK, so I'm not the brightest bulb in the package, but whatever his motives were, the post has a core of deceit that's very thinly covered with provocative language and misdirection.
The value of workshops might be open for discussion, but at least for me, KR's integrity is not.
Looks like I jumped the gun there, after reading KR's comments again I see that he has no other point beyond Bashing! And looking at was offered for 5k, it looks like the participants got fair value for their money...
It also takes guts to criticize a critic (among other things). So, who is going to prosecute a prosecutor? Ken Rockwell is bananas but provides a different and refreshing perspective from the tiring monolithic world of digital photography where everything is about new, expensive and obsolent hardware and its resolution.
hmmm....as usual, sometimes hard to tell the real target of KR rants......
Was he going after PODAS (Phase One Digital Artist Series) to get it renamed to something like
Professionally Organized Direct Access Shilling ?, or,
Pitifully Over-monied Dumb A** Shooters ?
In ether event, he remains his own self-generated lightning rod blogger.
Back to your regular programming..... ;-)
This caught my attention, too, more than anything else -- the word "luxury" in the promo for workshop.
Not to waste my own time, I presume anything "luxury" is going to be expensive. I do not presume anything expensive is going to be luxury.
Furnace Creek Resort markets itself as a "4-diamond luxury resort". A "Four Diamond" rating is something that would come from AAA -- they award four or five diamond ratings on luxury resorts. It's a prestigious thing. Any resort with such an award is likely going to market it.
Furnace Creek Resort only mentions itself as a "4-diamond resort" and nothing about where that rating comes from. If it came from AAA, it would be a "Four Diamond Award«" resort, you'd likely see this on their website -- but I didn't see it on Furnace Creek Resort website:
I tried searching AAA's website for Furnace Creek Resort -- didn't find it. Doesn't mean it's not there -- just means I didn't find it there.
Perhaps the fine folks at Furnace Creek Resort gave themselves the "4-diamond" rating to create impression of luxury?
Furnace Creek Resort looks like a nice place to stay but I'm not sure about the "4-diamond" thing -- and I don't get a sense of "luxury" from their website. Fwiw, so far, no call back to the msg I left with the company's corp marketing dept inquiring into the confusing "4 diamond" rating Furnace Creek Resort claims.
This thread is sort of going off in different directions, but diamonds or no, to stay at Furnace Creek during December in a "Deluxe King" room is $345/night plus taxes. Rooms inside of national parks and monuments are not cheap. Of course this doesn't consider group discounts, etc. Add in the use of the P65+, airport transfer, entertainment, a profit for the organizers, etc. and it seems there are costs adding up to "fair value".
Frankly, I think KR ranks somewhere below Howard Stern in the chain of organisms, and I won't buy a car with Sirius radio included because I won't support a company that would pay HS $100 Mil. ((Okay, KR is probably not below HS on the chain, but you get the idea. ))
Too funny Dale.
Being a workshop owner they pretty much are run two ways the all inclusive besides getting there transportation and than the fee plus all your own expenses. I guess something to be said for both. Jack and i are flat fee plus your expenses as we always thought it made more sense to folks to go that route. We don't stay at luxury hotels but we do eat out at nice restaurant but middle of the road hotels that are clean and have internet. We like to keep folks costs down as much as possible. BUT we could easily do all inclusive and talk about it all the time. It really depends on what people want. We feel it is more about the photography and the learning experience plus getting around to enough locations at the correct timings to pull out winning images for people. You've seen the images and they tell the real story how well ours do.
Last edited by Terry; 18th November 2009 at 12:34.
Yeah, and a whole friggin' cabin inside that same "luxury resort" during December is only $124-139 per night -- not exactly "expensive". I didn't read anything about the accommodations provided, only the location.
About the two guys pissing on each other over a photography seminar; they need to get out and take more pictures, spend less time pissing.
If I ever spend $5000.00 to stay at a supposed luxury resort, and then spend my time in a photo seminar -- please, someone shoot me in the head, I've gone stupid.
Darn we will get you on one . Let us know when your back in the states. I know Peter wants to come again for sure from Australia. Hell I would love to go there instead. LOL
Thinking Ghost and Mining Towns here in the Southwest at the moment . I have some pretty good spots already in mind. Still thinking about WHERE but 2nd week in January looks good.
Follow-up ... the fine folks running the Furnace Creek Resort have gotten back to me. A few phone calls later and I now understand the HOTEL is AAA rated for 4 diamonds, not the whole resort, not the restaurants. The hotel has had its 4-diamond rating for about 30-years. Furnace Creek Resort hotel should be a nice place to stay with above average amenities.
Fwiw, the diff between a AAA 4-diamond hotel and a 5-diamond hotel is, well, luxury. From AAA's website:
These establishments are upscale in all areas. Accommodations are progressively more refined and stylish. The physical attributes reflect an obvious enhanced level of quality throughout. The fundamental hallmarks at this level include an extensive array of amenities combined with a high degree of hospitality, service, and attention to detail.
These establishments reflect the characteristics of the ultimate in luxury and sophistication. Accommodations are first class. The physical attributes are extraordinary in every manner. The fundamental hallmarks at this level are to meticulously serve and exceed all guest expectations while maintaining an impeccable standard of excellence. Many personalized services and amenities enhance an unmatched level of comfort.
What I want from a workshop is:
1 Location Location Location
2 ample time to shoot dawn and sunset, ok between is also appreciated
3 a bunch of personable photographers to chew the fat with and talk photo stuff.
4 some decent places to eat (no luxury is required, just good food)
5 a time to share what we did.
6 clean sheets and a hot shower, some heat or ac according to the season
7 internet some how even if wan
8 KR a comfortable distance away.
Weather is up to the gods, and not really under the control of the organizers.
But, you can pick your workshop dates to better the chances.
Rockwell is always an interesting read, and is best taken with a grain of salt. His wry sense of humor is definately not for everyone.
Last edited by Rick Waldroup; 18th November 2009 at 14:36.
Why does this topic have dashes instead of dates and times?
Why was my post edited? If it offended anyone, you have my apology. But to edit my post is absurd. As far as I can tell, no one else's posts were altered. Why? Hell, I had rather you just delete the damn thing.
Or am I being dense and missing a joke?
No Jack, I went back and edited something I spelled wrong, I believe. That's all. No worries. It is not that big of a problem. Thanks, Rick.
Lots of fun happening over on LL on this issue