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Rockwell blasts Reichmann Phase workshop
- Thread starter monza
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G
gdwhalen
Guest
Well, the pics he showed were pretty bad but is that a true representation of what went on there? If so, I have some land on the moon I want to sell.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Seriously? No one bothered to check the metadata to see that these were the behind-the-scenes snapshots with a Canon G10 meant to go up on the blog to show what they were up to?
I have no idea if they posted any of the "good pictures" from the fancy cameras, or if those are just snaps, but heck, if they can't make good snaps with point-and-shoots, throwing more pixels at it just makes it worse.
It's irresponsible and reminds me a bit of Glenn Beck.
"I'm not saying these are from the P65+ or are serious photographers rather than behind the scene snaps - I'm just asking questions!"
There were some fantastic shots at that event. I'm sure there will be many great examples posted once everyone has made it home and has a chance to work up finals.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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I have no idea if they posted any of the "good pictures" from the fancy cameras, or if those are just snaps, but heck, if they can't make good snaps with point-and-shoots, throwing more pixels at it just makes it worse.
It's irresponsible and reminds me a bit of Glenn Beck.
"I'm not saying these are from the P65+ or are serious photographers rather than behind the scene snaps - I'm just asking questions!"
There were some fantastic shots at that event. I'm sure there will be many great examples posted once everyone has made it home and has a chance to work up finals.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
I have never met either KR or MR personally, but I have interacted many times with MR via email. From those exchanges I would say MR seems to be a pretty decent stand-up guy with a passion for photography. I have no idea about who KR is, but a rant like that makes him sound pretty immature --- like a kid with low self-esteem trying to build themselves up by tearing somebody else down...
I feel this discussion fits better in the Sunset Bar, so I am moving it there.
I feel this discussion fits better in the Sunset Bar, so I am moving it there.
Professional
Active member
I prefer to spend that much money on myself for a trip, can't spend that grands money just for a workshop if it will not add much to me more than what i have already, sometimes i feel that there are many workshops are so pricey and the lecturers or assistants are the most benefit people there than the attendees or students themselves, for outdoor workshops that worth thousands for a workshop i can go alone with decent good enough gear with good time of the day and checking all the rules and conditions and set the camera for good exposure, composition, color, view,.... etc will be more worth than dump that thousands on a workshop and hoping i will be another Ansel Adams next day, i took a 1-to-1 workshop or say photo tour with an experienced photographer in Scotland who is using only film cameras including medium format and shooting for over 25 years and i was using only 5D that time and it was my second year in photography and that workshop was for only one day, didn't see much he gave or taught me anyway, and at the end we ended up with almost same quality level of photos, i paid 160GBP, so what will another days workshops cost over $1000 will give me more?
I was going to attend some workshops locally or even internationally, but the end i found that i have to pay thousands for the photographers and at the end he will tell me what i will do it alone myself in fact without him with maybe little more information that can be easily got on books or online, so then is it realy worthy to pay him that much? Lucky him to buy more gear then and to travel more and has his own experience, ofcourse will not meaning all photographers but i really found that i learn it myself hard way and do it myself is more saving than let others teaching me and spend a lot for them.
I was looking for taking a workshop about studio lighting and shooting in studio in NY when i was there last October, almost many workshops there were more than my trip budget itself, how crazy it is?!!!!!!!!!
I was going to attend some workshops locally or even internationally, but the end i found that i have to pay thousands for the photographers and at the end he will tell me what i will do it alone myself in fact without him with maybe little more information that can be easily got on books or online, so then is it realy worthy to pay him that much? Lucky him to buy more gear then and to travel more and has his own experience, ofcourse will not meaning all photographers but i really found that i learn it myself hard way and do it myself is more saving than let others teaching me and spend a lot for them.
I was looking for taking a workshop about studio lighting and shooting in studio in NY when i was there last October, almost many workshops there were more than my trip budget itself, how crazy it is?!!!!!!!!!
Professional
Active member
Yes please, move it as this thread may go further far, so keep MF section clean of those topics.
Appreciate your effort to keep the forum!
Terry
New member
Professional,
I think it depends on the person. I know there are places I've gone on workshops that I would never do on my own. For instance, I probably wouldn't have gone out in old town San Juan on my own in the pre-dawn hours, I probably would not have stood outside by myself waiting for the sun to rise in sub zero windy conditions in Moab. When I went to Iceland more than half of our trip was listed as "DO NOT DRIVE HERE" on the rental car map. The camaraderie among the participants is a very nice part of the workshop experience.
Now for the learning aspects, all the different workshops are geared towards different goals. If I were looking to get into medium format and I was unsure if it was the right direction to go on, having the gear at your disposal for 5 straight days is the best demo you could ever do. Being at one of Jack and Guy's workshops and having access to any Leica lens I want to try is awesome. I still haven't tackled the classroom time. There is nothing quite like getting instruction on how to process an image from someone who was there, saw the light, knows the right colors.
Finally, it is fascinating to see the work of all the participants to see how each person interpreted the scene, what camera angle they decided on, how they made the picture, where they wandered off to and what they "saw" that was interesting. If your only experience is one on one instructor for a day, there is a lot more to the experience of a multi day workshop.
I think it depends on the person. I know there are places I've gone on workshops that I would never do on my own. For instance, I probably wouldn't have gone out in old town San Juan on my own in the pre-dawn hours, I probably would not have stood outside by myself waiting for the sun to rise in sub zero windy conditions in Moab. When I went to Iceland more than half of our trip was listed as "DO NOT DRIVE HERE" on the rental car map. The camaraderie among the participants is a very nice part of the workshop experience.
Now for the learning aspects, all the different workshops are geared towards different goals. If I were looking to get into medium format and I was unsure if it was the right direction to go on, having the gear at your disposal for 5 straight days is the best demo you could ever do. Being at one of Jack and Guy's workshops and having access to any Leica lens I want to try is awesome. I still haven't tackled the classroom time. There is nothing quite like getting instruction on how to process an image from someone who was there, saw the light, knows the right colors.
Finally, it is fascinating to see the work of all the participants to see how each person interpreted the scene, what camera angle they decided on, how they made the picture, where they wandered off to and what they "saw" that was interesting. If your only experience is one on one instructor for a day, there is a lot more to the experience of a multi day workshop.
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Rockwell seems full of sour grapes, as usual (i am not a fan of his blathering, if you can't tell).
i am sure he wishes he could attract a group like that and have them pay that kind of money... instead, he typically writes up bland stuff (with occasional links to sites that have a little more meat) and hopes people will donate via PayPal. and i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, simply that i've never found his "reviews" helpful enough that have made me want to dig into my pockets.
i think it's rude of him to blast workshops as well. they are not my bag (i honestly don't have the money right now) but i know many people who swear by them and have gotten huge benefits from the experience. who is Rockwell to say that they are trash? that the images are? has he ever put up a decent one himself? i really think that is irresponsible of him because many people do read his site and take him seriously... it's a pity.
i am sure he wishes he could attract a group like that and have them pay that kind of money... instead, he typically writes up bland stuff (with occasional links to sites that have a little more meat) and hopes people will donate via PayPal. and i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, simply that i've never found his "reviews" helpful enough that have made me want to dig into my pockets.
i think it's rude of him to blast workshops as well. they are not my bag (i honestly don't have the money right now) but i know many people who swear by them and have gotten huge benefits from the experience. who is Rockwell to say that they are trash? that the images are? has he ever put up a decent one himself? i really think that is irresponsible of him because many people do read his site and take him seriously... it's a pity.
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Amin
Active member
I think some of what KR writes is useful, and he writes reasonably well. There is no denying, however, that he has a weak filter for writing this sort of trash.
It's almost certainly part of his plan for driving traffic to his site. This thread alone is going to make him a decent chunk of cash via ads and affiliate income. KR's site gets top billing on Google for nearly every Nikon item he covers. He is no doubt making a very comfortable living off of that site.
The post referenced in this thread is really bad though, even for KR.
It's almost certainly part of his plan for driving traffic to his site. This thread alone is going to make him a decent chunk of cash via ads and affiliate income. KR's site gets top billing on Google for nearly every Nikon item he covers. He is no doubt making a very comfortable living off of that site.
The post referenced in this thread is really bad though, even for KR.
V
Vivek
Guest
Yup. I like him tearing up gears and tools as he sees fit. Entertaining.
Photography? That is better left to the ones who can. :ROTFL:
D
ddk
Guest
Wow, political OVER-correctness is alive and rampant getting in the way of enjoying some sarcasm...
Those samples are typical of any workshop, specially ones dealing with models and even worse lighting. Many are first timers trying to learn something, no news here, everyone who's organized or participated in a workshop knows this and there's no shame in it, we've all been there at some point. Personally I don't see him bashing MR, he's stating the obvious in a not so pc manner; equipment don't make photographs!
Those samples are typical of any workshop, specially ones dealing with models and even worse lighting. Many are first timers trying to learn something, no news here, everyone who's organized or participated in a workshop knows this and there's no shame in it, we've all been there at some point. Personally I don't see him bashing MR, he's stating the obvious in a not so pc manner; equipment don't make photographs!
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I think it is in bad taste no doubt that Ken rants about someone else in the industry. That to me is taking food off someone's table and that I can't agree with. A rant like this just loses ones credibility but this is how this guy makes his money by being controversial good for him but I personally don't go for it. I went to a bullying class last night with my son for a inappropriate saying he said in school. Honestly this fits that bullying label that we talked about last night to the letter.
BTW I think workshops are much more educational and the learning experience much quicker than going out on your own. I am basically self taught but workshops are a great avenue to learn a very wide diverse set techniques in a very short time. But you knew I would say that because Jack and I run them as well. But truth be told I have seen people from day 1 workshop improve drastically by the time they leave that workshop also for those that keep coming back like we enjoy very much those folks rock now and are damn good, I mean damn good. It all depends on the workshop you attend and who is putting them on. Some are get togethers but some you actually are taught. Rather see people not buy that lens but learn more first and I'm a gear whore.
BTW I think workshops are much more educational and the learning experience much quicker than going out on your own. I am basically self taught but workshops are a great avenue to learn a very wide diverse set techniques in a very short time. But you knew I would say that because Jack and I run them as well. But truth be told I have seen people from day 1 workshop improve drastically by the time they leave that workshop also for those that keep coming back like we enjoy very much those folks rock now and are damn good, I mean damn good. It all depends on the workshop you attend and who is putting them on. Some are get togethers but some you actually are taught. Rather see people not buy that lens but learn more first and I'm a gear whore.
V
Vivek
Guest
David,
You are absolutely correct about what a workshop is all about. If everyone churns out "perfect" images, they should not be going to any workshop as they will learn nothing.
What appears to be the gist of that rant is: "I offer something better than him".
Which isn't entirely wrong in terms of advertisement. Many many companies and corporations have done that directly or subliminally over the years.
However, when dealing small groups of people with personal interactions, that corporate strategy seem out of place.
Would I be interested in going to a workshop if there will be time spent on what others do instead of what I can get out of the time and money I spend?
No.
Absolutely! If that is what he is trying to say, good.
You are absolutely correct about what a workshop is all about. If everyone churns out "perfect" images, they should not be going to any workshop as they will learn nothing.
What appears to be the gist of that rant is: "I offer something better than him".
Which isn't entirely wrong in terms of advertisement. Many many companies and corporations have done that directly or subliminally over the years.
However, when dealing small groups of people with personal interactions, that corporate strategy seem out of place.
Would I be interested in going to a workshop if there will be time spent on what others do instead of what I can get out of the time and money I spend?
No.
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
In general and not specific to any workshop or any specific images but to the concept of beginners in these expensive high powered over tech'd workshops, etc.
It is interesting that people who are churning out images just short of medicore or worse, beginners or the untalented, are using or thinking of using equipment that top level professionals cannot afford and most cannot justify. That such high level gear is being marketed to such people is, well it's not immoral in a free market, all power to the sellers for finding such a good market to work with, but ludicrous it certainly is. Skill should come a long way before the decision to need a certain equipment set. It's being very firmly marketed the other way round though.
Personally I find it as 'posing' as rich kids in sports cars that they could not begin to need or require based on their driving skills.
In the real world there are very few who are stretching their photographic skills and needs to require more than a 5D mkII. Period. The idea of beginners attending a workshop where many then put in an order for a 40 or 60 megapixel digital back speaks very loudly about the reason for buying those tools. Posing.
Then again I feel the same way about most of the 5D mkII buyers who never print larger than A3. Most pro's I know are either using a D700/D3 or a MFDB and only then if they absolutely have to.... :lecture::deadhorse:
I know why I want to upgrade my 5D's to 1Ds mkIII's. I know because I'm a pro who knows what he needs to do a job or, not less importantly, what he needs to make his life easier when shooting a job. In this particular case it's nothing to do with the megapixels which are irrellevant. I wonder how many of these beginners or photographic wannabees on manufacturer sponsered workshops are being told that MFDB's are very hard to use, expensive overkill for what they will need to do for the next decade or so until they feel personally that their present gear is holding them back. I don't know, maybe they are, I sure hope so..
It is interesting that people who are churning out images just short of medicore or worse, beginners or the untalented, are using or thinking of using equipment that top level professionals cannot afford and most cannot justify. That such high level gear is being marketed to such people is, well it's not immoral in a free market, all power to the sellers for finding such a good market to work with, but ludicrous it certainly is. Skill should come a long way before the decision to need a certain equipment set. It's being very firmly marketed the other way round though.
Personally I find it as 'posing' as rich kids in sports cars that they could not begin to need or require based on their driving skills.
In the real world there are very few who are stretching their photographic skills and needs to require more than a 5D mkII. Period. The idea of beginners attending a workshop where many then put in an order for a 40 or 60 megapixel digital back speaks very loudly about the reason for buying those tools. Posing.
Then again I feel the same way about most of the 5D mkII buyers who never print larger than A3. Most pro's I know are either using a D700/D3 or a MFDB and only then if they absolutely have to.... :lecture::deadhorse:
I know why I want to upgrade my 5D's to 1Ds mkIII's. I know because I'm a pro who knows what he needs to do a job or, not less importantly, what he needs to make his life easier when shooting a job. In this particular case it's nothing to do with the megapixels which are irrellevant. I wonder how many of these beginners or photographic wannabees on manufacturer sponsered workshops are being told that MFDB's are very hard to use, expensive overkill for what they will need to do for the next decade or so until they feel personally that their present gear is holding them back. I don't know, maybe they are, I sure hope so..
TRSmith
Subscriber Member
Earlier this morning I clicked the link to the KR blog out of curiosity. Without studying it carefully or parsing everything perfectly I came away with the impression that the samples he linked were indeed taken by workshop participants with MF cameras. It wasn't until I returned to this thread and discovered the truth about the samples that I realized I'd been manipulated. OK, so I'm not the brightest bulb in the package, but whatever his motives were, the post has a core of deceit that's very thinly covered with provocative language and misdirection.
The value of workshops might be open for discussion, but at least for me, KR's integrity is not.
The value of workshops might be open for discussion, but at least for me, KR's integrity is not.
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
Does anyone doubt that? :ROTFL:
D
ddk
Guest
Looks like I jumped the gun there, after reading KR's comments again I see that he has no other point beyond Bashing! And looking at was offered for 5k, it looks like the participants got fair value for their money...
It also takes guts to criticize a critic (among other things). So, who is going to prosecute a prosecutor? Ken Rockwell is bananas but provides a different and refreshing perspective from the tiring monolithic world of digital photography where everything is about new, expensive and obsolent hardware and its resolution.
Eduardo
Eduardo