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V
Vivek
Guest
Robert, Tighter regulations, government ownership and such things which would not resonate well in the US.
See this (among many other analyses available online now):
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/05/03/norway
BTW, you were quoting postal service and other govt jobs offering lots of wages, have you looked into what the banks pay their employees? They mismanage everyone else' money and pay themselves very well.
See this (among many other analyses available online now):
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/05/03/norway
BTW, you were quoting postal service and other govt jobs offering lots of wages, have you looked into what the banks pay their employees? They mismanage everyone else' money and pay themselves very well.
M5-Guy
New member
WRONG....
The "Current Regulations" (Uhh DE-REGULATIONS) in less inspections and other checks and balances were maned by the oil industry employees to check and record their findings,... many were NOT done to regulation standards... case in point: on testing the BOP (Blow off Protector), was to carry a 5000-psi load for 5 minutes... 100's were tested for 30sec and then the graph was hand done to like it had been on for 5 minutes.. (From ex-Shell personal that has been a whistle blower on what HE witnessed when he was employed by Shell Oil, Source-MSNBC interview on 5-13-2010, 8pm-9pm)...
BTW, the deregulation started under a Republican President. To profit the largest corporations that were pouring Millions of $$$$ into the GOP coffer via Senate/Congressmen donations for their personal campaigns, or directly to GOP. (That what Lobbyist are paid to do....TO INFLUENCE WASHINGTON POLICY to THEIR PROFIT)..... It ain't rocket science..... and it isn't a very complicated process either! Even it means economic disasters/collapse down the road. Very Selfish and very immoral imo.
M5-Guy
New member
Robert, Tighter regulations, government ownership and such things which would not resonate well in the US.
SO TRUE...
See this (among many other analyses available online now):
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/05/03/norway
BTW, you were quoting postal service and other govt jobs offering lots of wages, have you looked into what the banks pay their employees? They mismanage everyone else' money and pay themselves very well.
Thanks for the PM.
bensonga
Well-known member
I thought you were referring to the way both Norway and the UK (and almost every other oil producing country besides the US, from what I've read) separates the agencies responsible for oil leasing/development and the oil safety/environmental compliance.....as Obama is proposing to do now.
It's a good start at least. Then Salazar needs to clean house at the MMS and remove all those people who have gotten way too cosy with the oil companies and their lobbyists.
Gary
bensonga
Well-known member
Let's start with actually enforcing current regulations, reducing the influence of lobbyists and staffing the agencies with people who are truly there to promote and protect the public interest, not the interests of the oil companies (or Wall Street banks, health insurance companies etc).
Gary
stephengilbert
Active member
Interesting interview with Energy Secretary Steve Chu: http://www.theatlantic.com/science/...chu-used-gamma-rays-to-save-the-planet/56685/
johnastovall
Deceased, but remembered fondly here...
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation." - Stephen Crane's Black Riders
And so it goes...
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation." - Stephen Crane's Black Riders
And so it goes...
V
Vivek
Guest
Thanks for the link. Mr.Chu is one of the top brains in the world. A very modest person.
Gary, Norway and the UK are very different (though the difference between UK and the US govts are even larger, unfortunately).
I am sure that things can be done effectively without government ownership when there is adequate oversight. The first step in that direction would be to get rid of corruption and bribery ("lobbying"), unless the competition is on to beat Nigeria and how they operate.
I'm all for that. Bribes/kickback/sweetheart deals are what created the financial mess we are in now, with government leading the charge. Fannie/Freddie run by corrupt bureaucrats who lined their own pockets with millions by creating false financials, and don't forget Congressional 'oversight' who directly lied to the American people about the true status of those entities while getting personal benefits. Those same people are still in Congress today. The worldwide effect of which make the frauds at Enron/MCI/Tyco (and Madoff) look like petty crime in comparison. When the president of Fannie gets a civil suit and $2M fine (paid for by Fannie's insurance company) and gets to keep his millions, while all the top execs at those firms get prison, it's pretty obvious government is rotten to the core. This is only going to get worse as the US goes to a bigger/larger more centralized government. The more money that flows thru Washington, the worse this will get.
What happened here with BP of course may have absolutely nothing to do with permits or lack of enforcement. There is no enterprise that is entirely risk-free, and not every unfortunate event necessarily has to do with the pursuit of profit.
It's time we start having hearings so the execs of industry can start grilling the corrupto-crats. Wouldn't that be interesting.
What happened here with BP of course may have absolutely nothing to do with permits or lack of enforcement. There is no enterprise that is entirely risk-free, and not every unfortunate event necessarily has to do with the pursuit of profit.
It's time we start having hearings so the execs of industry can start grilling the corrupto-crats.
Wouldn't that be interesting.
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stephengilbert
Active member
"I'm all for that. Bribes/kickback/sweetheart deals are what created the financial mess we are in now, with government leading the charge."
I guess that's our disagreement in a nutshell. You seem to think that government causes bribery, that if it weren't for government the people or companies that pay bribes could be trusted to do the right thing.
Yet these same companies spend fortunes to maintain the bribe friendly environment in which they can continue to do business and prosper. If the unfettered free market is such a great concept, why do companies continue to bribe their way to regulations (like the liability cap for oil spill damages) that benefit them?
I guess that's our disagreement in a nutshell. You seem to think that government causes bribery, that if it weren't for government the people or companies that pay bribes could be trusted to do the right thing.
Yet these same companies spend fortunes to maintain the bribe friendly environment in which they can continue to do business and prosper. If the unfettered free market is such a great concept, why do companies continue to bribe their way to regulations (like the liability cap for oil spill damages) that benefit them?
i think the vitriol needs to be directed at the individuals, not the institutions. whether it be lobbyists, buying/selling their influence, corporate execs, corrupt gov. regulators and politicians, inspectors taking bribes, chanters of the drill mantra who want to keep their personal take coming in, (damn the dolphins), the drivers of gas guzzlers with no concern for conservation, global warming deny-ers, hazardous waste producers who only apply controls when they have to, etc.
No, I don't think that government causes bribery. Those that ran Fannie/Freddie for example, were not bribed, they just were corrupt -- cooking the books to benefit themselves instead of managing. And that's what it really comes down to. Government has a very poor record of managing...they can't manage business (USPS) they can't manage disaster relief (FEMA) they can't manage social security or Medicare, and they can't seem to manage oil drilling regulations, either. There are plenty of regulations that were in place prior to the oil spill (see EPA link in a previous post.) I simply don't see how more government regulations or more bureaucrats are going to do any better. This goes across multiple administrations and has nothing to do with politics, it is just the nature of government bureaucracy. I agree that we should go after individuals that are behind these debacles, just like we went after the people behind Enron, Tyco, and MCI. However I disagree that vitriol is necessary against people who simply are expressing their opinions.
Well you did say that vitriol needs to be directed to 'global warming deny-ers.' That's what my comment about people's opinions was about.
That pretty much winds things up for me. As I mentioned to someone privately, it would be nice to be presented with evidence that additional government would help prevent these sorts of things. I haven't seen anything along those lines to sway my position but I'd evaluate and consider if it were posted.
Best to all.
That pretty much winds things up for me. As I mentioned to someone privately, it would be nice to be presented with evidence that additional government would help prevent these sorts of things. I haven't seen anything along those lines to sway my position but I'd evaluate and consider if it were posted.
Best to all.
V
Vivek
Guest
Robert, I couldn't help wonder at those (politicians) who always came up with "smaller government", what they actually meant by that.
When special interest (big business) "lobbyists" are taking up the attention of the government all the time, there will be very little time left for them to do any real work. So, in effect, government becomes minuscule.
I guess that is not what your idea of "smaller" government.
Heh, in general smaller govt means fewer bureaucrats to foul things up. Actually it means less Washington: let local governments govern locally and not have the feds micromanage. Every dollar that doesn't go thru Washington is one less dollar that Washington can waste. No one likes micromanagement do they?
Actually it means less Washington: let local governments govern locally and not have the feds micromanage. Every dollar that doesn't go thru Washington is one less dollar that Washington can waste. No one likes micromanagement do they? i suppose i put those who deny global warming, an opinion that seems to deny something 90% of the scientific community validates, as eco-negative and who are therefore motivated to continue/expand the use of fossil fuel, coal plants, etc. and oppose making "sacrifices" to their lifestyles in order to transition to more eco-friendly forms of energy.
i agree about the mess gov can make and the mess getting bigger, but at least the gov intention could in theory be properly motivated, whereas the motivation of industry is always profit, by definiton
i agree about the mess gov can make and the mess getting bigger, but at least the gov intention could in theory be properly motivated, whereas the motivation of industry is always profit, by definiton
Global warming denier, or global warming denier denier -- both are opinion. For every scientist that 'believes' in AGW, there are plenty of highly qualified scientists that don't. AGW is not fact, of course, it's just theory based on computer models. Said models are now undergoing serious questioning as to credibility, due to the Climategate scandal...
It is likely the vast majority of individuals in both private enterprise and government have good intentions. But intentions are one thing -- let's not forget about actually getting results, as that in the end is all the counts -- don't want to repeat my previous posts in this regard, so I won't.
Profit motive is not a bad thing, in and of itself.
It is likely the vast majority of individuals in both private enterprise and government have good intentions. But intentions are one thing -- let's not forget about actually getting results, as that in the end is all the counts -- don't want to repeat my previous posts in this regard, so I won't.
Profit motive is not a bad thing, in and of itself.
bensonga
Well-known member
You've commented several times about bad government re FEMA, the USPS, Social Security and Medicare.
My own extensive experience with the USPS over the past 10 years (monthly print exchanges) and frequent purchases from Amazon, etc (according to my wife, too frequent) shipped via USPS whenever possible has been outstanding. They provide fast and cost effective service for USPS Postal Priority mail to Alaska. It usually takes only 1-2 days longer for USPS Postal Priority to reach Alaska than the much more expensive UPS or Fedex 2nd Day Air. Ask me about damaged goods shipped via UPS. Most people I know here in Alaska much prefer USPS to either Fedex or UPS.
FEMA? Until the Bush administration got hold of it and appointed the likes "Brownie" , FEMA was recognized as a very effective government agency.
Social Security and Medicare have the lowest administrative costs of any organization providing similar services....and they are providing those services to MANY more people than any private insurance company.
The myth that the federal government can't do anything right is a myth promoted by those who hate government...it is a political ideology, pure and simple.
Gary
My own extensive experience with the USPS over the past 10 years (monthly print exchanges) and frequent purchases from Amazon, etc (according to my wife, too frequent) shipped via USPS whenever possible has been outstanding. They provide fast and cost effective service for USPS Postal Priority mail to Alaska. It usually takes only 1-2 days longer for USPS Postal Priority to reach Alaska than the much more expensive UPS or Fedex 2nd Day Air. Ask me about damaged goods shipped via UPS. Most people I know here in Alaska much prefer USPS to either Fedex or UPS.
FEMA? Until the Bush administration got hold of it and appointed the likes "Brownie" , FEMA was recognized as a very effective government agency.
Social Security and Medicare have the lowest administrative costs of any organization providing similar services....and they are providing those services to MANY more people than any private insurance company.
The myth that the federal government can't do anything right is a myth promoted by those who hate government...it is a political ideology, pure and simple.
Gary
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