Free service in jeopardy?

[Don Hutton]

Terry

IMO, not discouraging price gouging here is a slippery slope to who knows where. And while I fully respect the free market, the price comparisons which get made are often misleading (like last sale on Ebay was X - never any mention of the substantial fees the the seller had to pay Ebay and Paypal). There's already been a pretty flagrant and seemingly successful fraud completed on this B&S list recently. I personally have done a whole bunch of very happy deals here, so I'd hate to see this sub-forum disappear, but it does seem that the B&S forum of late seems to be the preserve of folks using the B&S forum heavily without ever having contributed to a different sub-forum to this site in any other way. They list every item they have separately and bounce them almost hourly under various guises. Some of them are obviously in the trade too.

Back in the day, this was a great place to pick up some good deals on whatever toys Guy and Jack had bought on the spur of the moment; now we have to wade through all this other stuff...!

 

[Terry]

The members can discourage price gouging by simply ignoring the sale.

Look I understand your points but as you said it is a slippery slope. Would you think differently of someone selling a 35lux for a profit vs someone selling the titanium limited edition?

I don't disagree with your comments about ebay fees etc. but someone willing to spend on these lenses ought to be doing their own due diligence and if they are that naive I would question why they are buying on a forum to begin with.

Terry

IMO, not discouraging price gouging here is a slippery slope to who knows where. And while I fully respect the free market, the price comparisons which get made are often misleading (like last sale on Ebay was X - never any mention of the substantial fees the the seller had to pay Ebay and Paypal). There's already been a pretty flagrant and seemingly successful fraud completed on this B&S list recently. I personally have done a whole bunch of very happy deals here, so I'd hate to see this sub-forum disappear, but it does seem that the B&S forum of late seems to be the preserve of folks using the B&S forum heavily without ever having contributed to a different sub-forum to this site in any other way. They list every item they have separately and bounce them almost hourly under various guises. Some of them are obviously in the trade too.

Back in the day, this was a great place to pick up some good deals on whatever toys Guy and Jack had bought on the spur of the moment; now we have to wade through all this other stuff...!

 

[tjv]

Maybe I can't remember what the rules are when joining, but why not make the B&S forum accessible only to members with X amount of posts or X amount of membership time? That would go one step towards encouraging respectable participation.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Very simple we have folks that are outstanding members or workshop participants that maybe only have a few posts so what number do you use 10 , 20 , 30 or 100. If we went to 100 you know how many folks we would leave off that list. Simply not a fair way to do this based on post counts. Btw the rules are posted right on the top of the B&S forum take a moment and read them for yourself, this goes for everyone. Be informed

Also many great suggestions on this stuff from many members and we appreciate all of them but many times there is another side of the coin to consider. I know I bounce a lot of these around within the mods. Ourselves and I get responses back on the downside I did not think about. Just happened today actually. Lol

We are trying our best and frankly this section is 95 percent totally on track, it's the 5 percent that makes dirt into mud. And yes it's not fun for us to be looking like jerks when we are trying to make this a 100 percent on track. Someone has to be the bad guy in all of this. So if you need to be pissed at anyone let it be me, I can take it trust me. Leave my mods. Alone they are volunteers and it is not always pleasant to deal with this stuff. You got a bitch you know my e-mail.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay I'm having a stressful day. Lol

Hey I'm sitting next to 4 hot ladies on the beach and Nancy on the other side of me. I can only look one way so long before I get my *** kicked. Talk about stress. Lol

Sent from my iPhone

 

[wjlapier]

Okay I'm having a stressful day. Lol

Hey I'm sitting next to 4 hot ladies on the beach and Nancy on the other side of me. I can only look one way so long before I get my *** kicked. Talk about stress. Lol

Sent from my iPhone

My kind of stressful day :thumbs:

 

[Double Negative]

Right on, Guy.

 

[seakayaker]

Thanks Guy, Jack, Terry, Bob and the other moderators for the great work on the GetDPI site.

I have wanted to comment about an ad on a few occasions but the simple fact is that if I am not going to buy an item then I need to just let it alone.

Having successfully bought and sold on the 'Gear FS or WTB' I would hate to see it changed to accommodate the actions of so few.

Thanks again . . . . .

 

[weinschela]

The forums are a community, and I am concerned that we will lose this great asset if it morphs from a community where trust is important to one that is taken over by people including commercial people who just buy to resell at higher than new prices. Now I know what caveat emptor means and that you need to be careful as a buyer. But I also know that if the seller is a regular here it is a hell of a lot better than the anonymity of ebay, and if the seller here is a newbie looking to unload a hard to get lens, my own instincts would to "just say no". I don't think there is a perfect solution but I do think that the reputation of this forum has been undermined and while I can understand the reluctance of the mods to impose some minimal posting requirement in order to post a for sale, imho, it is a better solution than charging. I don't see any way to price police. The solution has to be at the front door.

 

[zombii]

One of the things that I don't think has been mentioned is all those people who get on forums like this expecting to get something for nothing. Ok, something for way below the market price. It even happens on Ebay, somebody sends you a low ball offer and then sounds offended when you don't give the item for a price that they come very close to demanding. I'm not crazy about people who ask more than list price, especially for an item they just got for list price. I'm even less crazy about dealers who ask more than list for items you know they got for wholesale. A particular Voigtlander dealer comes to mind. However, nobody makes anybody buy from those people. Any idiot can ask anything that he wants. Do you have to buy from him? Uh, no.The main issue here is that people comment about it on the FS threads. I understand the irritation but those comments may well make everybody else suffer as we're seeing in this discussion. If you don't like the price, don't buy and don't comment. While the price may seem out of line to you, it may not seem out of line to the seller and if you're the seller, you don't want somebody to trash your sale. If you have a comment, make it in a PM. If they're out of line, the fact that nobody buys will speak for itself. If you foolishly but something for a lot more than it's worth, who's at fault? Do your homework before you jump. It ain't rocket science and I don't see very many people on any of these forums who appear to be low on the IQ scale. Even in the rare event that they might be, it's not our job to hold their hand. If in doubt, I'm sure there are any number of people who would be glad to help a newbie out if they were asked. I would far rather see public commentary closed (ala Ebay) than to have the service taken away or be charged for it. I really think, though, that if the price police would just shut up, the market will take care of itself.

The mods have struck a good balance from what I've seen and I don't envy their job. It's easy to see where they could get tired of it and just say to hell with it, let's shut it off. I hope that doesn't happen. I've bought a number of items at decent prices from good people on here. A little self control people, frustrated as you may get, is called for and I hope everyone will exercise it.

 

[Godfrey]

It would be very sad to me to see this forum compromised by a buy and sell flap.

 

[Terry]

The forums are a community, and I am concerned that we will lose this great asset if it morphs from a community where trust is important to one that is taken over by people including commercial people who just buy to resell at higher than new prices. Now I know what caveat emptor means and that you need to be careful as a buyer. But I also know that if the seller is a regular here it is a hell of a lot better than the anonymity of ebay, and if the seller here is a newbie looking to unload a hard to get lens, my own instincts would to "just say no". I don't think there is a perfect solution but I do think that the reputation of this forum has been undermined and while I can understand the reluctance of the mods to impose some minimal posting requirement in order to post a for sale, imho, it is a better solution than charging. I don't see any way to price police. The solution has to becat the front door.

What is the problem with simply ignoring new sellers that have added nothing to the community?

I understand what everyone is saying about preserving community but again I say why can't everyone just do the obvious, ignore them.

 

[Terry]

One of the things that I don't think has been mentioned is all those people who get on forums like this expecting to get something for nothing. Ok, something for way below the market price. It even happens on Ebay, somebody sends you a low ball offer and then sounds offended when you don't give the item for a price that they come very close to demanding. I'm not crazy about people who ask more than list price, especially for an item they just got for list price. I'm even less crazy about dealers who ask more than list for items you know they got for wholesale. A particular Voigtlander dealer comes to mind. However, nobody makes anybody buy from those people. Any idiot can ask anything that he wants. Do you have to buy from him? Uh, no.The main issue here is that people comment about it on the FS threads. I understand the irritation but those comments may well make everybody else suffer as we're seeing in this discussion. If you don't like the price, don't buy and don't comment. While the price may seem out of line to you, it may not seem out of line to the seller and if you're the seller, you don't want somebody to trash your sale. If you have a comment, make it in a PM. If they're out of line, the fact that nobody buys will speak for itself. If you foolishly but something for a lot more than it's worth, who's at fault? Do your homework before you jump. It ain't rocket science and I don't see very many people on any of these forums who appear to be low on the IQ scale. Even in the rare event that they might be, it's not our job to hold their hand. If in doubt, I'm sure there are any number of people who would be glad to help a newbie out if they were asked. I would far rather see public commentary closed (ala Ebay) than to have the service taken away or be charged for it. I really think, though, that if the price police would just shut up, the market will take care of itself.

The mods have struck a good balance from what I've seen and I don't envy their job. It's easy to see where they could get tired of it and just say to hell with it, let's shut it off. I hope that doesn't happen. I've bought a number of items at decent prices from good people on here. A little self control people, frustrated as you may get, is called for and I hope everyone will exercise it.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[D&A]

Terry

IMO, not discouraging price gouging here is a slippery slope to who knows where. And while I fully respect the free market, the price comparisons which get made are often misleading (like last sale on Ebay was X - never any mention of the substantial fees the the seller had to pay Ebay and Paypal). There's already been a pretty flagrant and seemingly successful fraud completed on this B&S list recently. I personally have done a whole bunch of very happy deals here, so I'd hate to see this sub-forum disappear, but it does seem that the B&S forum of late seems to be the preserve of folks using the B&S forum heavily without ever having contributed to a different sub-forum to this site in any other way. They list every item they have separately and bounce them almost hourly under various guises. Some of them are obviously in the trade too.

Back in the day, this was a great place to pick up some good deals on whatever toys Guy and Jack had bought on the spur of the moment; now we have to wade through all this other stuff...!

There have been some good posts in this thread even though opinions vary. My belief is that its important to consider all points of view.

Personally I feel Don's post contains some very important points that reflect my own. Profits and pricing items that reflect current market prices is understandable, but as Don expressed, other factors come into play and they too are equally important to the success and viability of an excellent site like Getdpi....which usually has its own unique identity which many find both comfortable and refreshing.

Dave (D&A)

 

[wolverine]

All very good points. There should be the ability to do exchanges here without interference. But you will always get someone who thinks they are carrying the flag for the oppressed or something and have to comment on price. The seller needs to report them to get their post deleted. I believe the seller should be the monitor. If they feel a comment is not right report it.

Regarding high prices. Who says the buyer has to pay it. Too many people are afraid to negotiate. I just purchased two lenses here this week. I did not pay asking price. I got a good deal. If I do not get what I think is a fair price I do not buy. It is my responsibility, not the mods. I agree there are those who come here looking for something for nothing too. Don't sell to them. It is hard to stop dealers who do not reveal themselves.

 

[Shelby Lewis]

A quick thought or two...

This is a "public" forum, but it is not a democracy, per se. There really is nothing that says that the B/S forum can't have a different rule set than the other sub-fora. Firstly... devil's advocate (for those that would disagree with me). A minimum post count, before one is able to sell here, may seem a bit off-putting... but in actuality it may establish that this forum, the greater GetDPI presence, is about community and not commerce... and that in order to sell here, one needs to be a part of the community for a bit. This is for everyone's sake. Framed that way, it only says that we members care about one another and wish to know who we're dealing with when it comes to parting with our hard-earned monies and gear. I assume the B/S makes no significant money for the GetDPI admins as all sales are between private parties. I would ask that they weigh the amount of time needed to admin the B/S forum versus the other fora (which seem to be the heart and soul of GetDPI). Is is worth it? I can't answer that as I honestly don't know.

I'm not leaning one way or the other yet, but I do think it important to realize that it's not the end of the world if someone is not able to sell here. Who's to say that certain part-time members can't petition for access to B/S. This is not a democracy.

If the B/S forum somehow becomes an entity that dictates how the whole GetDPI community is seen in cyberspace, then it would seem that indeed there needs to be some thinking done.

I totally understand the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" ideal... and agree with it to a large extent... but I do believe it prudent to see that the B/S forum is now sometimes operating in a different manner than the other (congenial, polite, and personal) sub-fora. There is much here, intent-wise, that would not be put up with were it present in the other areas of GetDPI (emphasis on intention).

We're in a bit of gray area with GetDPI continuing to grow... and the rest of GetDPI is, indeed, being colored (good or bad?) by the anonymity of the B/S forum.

ETA: I reiterate that I have little personal opinion on this matter... I rarely buy here (lack of funds, lol!)... but all viewpoints should be taken into consideration.

 

[GrahamWelland]

All very good points. There should be the ability to do exchanges here without interference. But you will always get someone who thinks they are carrying the flag for the oppressed or something and have to comment on price. The seller needs to report them to get their post deleted. I believe the seller should be the monitor. If they feel a comment is not right report it.

Regarding high prices. Who says the buyer has to pay it. Too many people are afraid to negotiate. I just purchased two lenses here this week. I did not pay asking price. I got a good deal. If I do not get what I think is a fair price I do not buy. It is my responsibility, not the mods. I agree there are those who come here looking for something for nothing too. Don't sell to them. It is hard to stop dealers who do not reveal themselves.

:thumbs: I totally agree. The mods do a great job, especially given their pay

I vehemently disagree with price policing on sale threads - let people ask whatever price they want and if you don't like it, don't buy. Simple. I've seen for sale threads from friends ruined by pricing comments and comparisons on other sites and it really isn't fair, even when justified! If someone asks for an unreasonable price then let the market decide.

Like many here I've bought and sold many times to folks here and it's been nothing but a pleasurable experience. I hope it stays this way and we can keep away the untrustworthy element that may be attracted to seemingly good pickings here amongst folks who are able and prepared to buy high value items here.

Btw, I always take a look at a sellers (& buyers) posting history before I deal with them. If they are not known to me and all they ever do is sell here and do not contribute to the forums in any way then I'm equally unlikely to deal with them. I don't advocate the "no buy/sell access until you've posted x posts" approach that certain other sites use - I find that incredibly oppressive as a buyer personally and where do you set the threshold? I don't know.

My $.02 ... And worth every penny.

 

[ashwinrao1]

Puttin' my $0.02 in for what it's worth. I have had THE BEST buying and selling experiences here at GetDPI. The gang here is, nearly without exception, trustworthy, friendly, and as a result of the forum and even as a result of buy-sell, I have made some great friends in the photo world.

I think that the Mods have done a remarkable job keeping the service open for use, friendly, and well received. They have a hard, and thankless job, and they do it supremely well.

As for me, I feel that I can make my own choices with regards to whom I should buy and sell with. I always ask for people to present a record of good standing somewhere (prefereably here), and my partners in sale have asked the same of me. Regarding "pricing", it's on all of us to set the market. I personally don't like to upmark items, but that doesn't necessarily dictate how others may choose to do their business. If an item is priced too-high, I simply ignore it and move on. If I have an item that I desire at a certain price-point, I post WTB ads, and they have, for the most part, been met by gracious individuals who have granted my wishes. I find the entire experience to be well moderated, not intrusive, and constructive. I agree with the mod's sentiments entirely that there shouldn't be price policing here. Simply ignoring an overpriced item should be a message enough to the seller, if there happens to be someone out there who chooses a high price on a lens, then kudos to all, as both supply and demand have been met....

I, for one, plan to continue to use this service, and I appreciate what you all have done for the photographic community (in my case, Lecia).

Thumbs up, kudos, good job guys, rock on!!! All good!

 

[voe]

Suggestion to the moderators at this forum.

To the moderators at this forum: I suggest that all for sale threads be allowed only posts by the original poster. And all potential buyers communicate by sending PM to the seller. This way you will not have to moderate sale threads.

 

[fotografz]

One of the things that I don't think has been mentioned is all those people who get on forums like this expecting to get something for nothing. Ok, something for way below the market price. It even happens on Ebay, somebody sends you a low ball offer and then sounds offended when you don't give the item for a price that they come very close to demanding. I'm not crazy about people who ask more than list price, especially for an item they just got for list price. I'm even less crazy about dealers who ask more than list for items you know they got for wholesale. A particular Voigtlander dealer comes to mind. However, nobody makes anybody buy from those people. Any idiot can ask anything that he wants. Do you have to buy from him? Uh, no.The main issue here is that people comment about it on the FS threads. I understand the irritation but those comments may well make everybody else suffer as we're seeing in this discussion. If you don't like the price, don't buy and don't comment. While the price may seem out of line to you, it may not seem out of line to the seller and if you're the seller, you don't want somebody to trash your sale. If you have a comment, make it in a PM. If they're out of line, the fact that nobody buys will speak for itself. If you foolishly but something for a lot more than it's worth, who's at fault? Do your homework before you jump. It ain't rocket science and I don't see very many people on any of these forums who appear to be low on the IQ scale. Even in the rare event that they might be, it's not our job to hold their hand. If in doubt, I'm sure there are any number of people who would be glad to help a newbie out if they were asked. I would far rather see public commentary closed (ala Ebay) than to have the service taken away or be charged for it. I really think, though, that if the price police would just shut up, the market will take care of itself.

The mods have struck a good balance from what I've seen and I don't envy their job. It's easy to see where they could get tired of it and just say to hell with it, let's shut it off. I hope that doesn't happen. I've bought a number of items at decent prices from good people on here. A little self control people, frustrated as you may get, is called for and I hope everyone will exercise it.

Exactly!

IMO, this is a tempest in a teapot caused by a temporary shortage of Leica M lenses which in turn was caused by the success of the M9.

This is by far the best place to buy and sell on the internet ... mostly between people who know one another because of this forum. I now only buy and sell here for that very reason.

Highest prices anywhere? Who knows if that is true. What I do know to be true is that in general, the buyers and sellers are the highest quality themselves. They usually know their stuff and transactions are friendly and trustworthy. If I don't know someone I either don't sell or buy from them, or I take precautionary measures and use very detailed communications.

The notion of members policing the B/S section to preserve the "family forum feel" is BS ... it is no one's business but the seller's. If a potential buyer is really a pal, then PM them any opinion you may have. Otherwise ... leave it to the market to answer whether the price is indeed out of bounds.

If a buyer posts a ridiculous price ... the reaction should be total silence. If someone buys it ... oh well.

Just leave the B/S section alone ... it'll level out by itself.

-Marc