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Free service in jeopardy?

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my_photography

New member
I am not very active here but I read all these with much interest. It is good we are discussing this out, not behind closed door. I am sure at the end, we will come out with a method that is tailored for this forum.
 

wolverine

New member
The concept of fair market value and supply/demand are two different concepts. FMV is established when an informed willing buyer and informed willing seller agree on price without undue outside influence. It can establish a benchmark price for that product if there are enough observations to see a trend. For instance real estate sales. Those settled prices are known and are used to help establish FMV. It is a guide of price in the market, not an absolute. Since we do not know what these forum transactions actually settle at, we do not really know FMV. The current trend of higher prices has to do with the next concept.

The supply/demand equation has to do with scarcity of a product. Low supply and high demand means higher price. May or may not not be FMV. Especially if the buyer is desperate and wants/needs the product (undue influence). Likewise, when a seller is desperate to sell price could be lower (undue influence). That is not FMV either. When supply and demand come back into equilibrium, price volatility will settle down.

Sell at what price you think you can get. There is nothing unethical about it. There are folks who will not gouge but that does not make them any more ethical than the guy who sells high.
 

Farnz

Member
With the greatest respect "fair" has no meaning in business, which is essentially the environment that exists in the Buy & Sell forum. For any other environment to exist would require the artificial manipulation of prices.

Pete.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
My own thoughts on this are simple.

The internet is like a dark room you enter that's filled with people. The people are in various shades of shadows. Those you know are in the light and further in the room are those you don't know who are in complete darkness. You have "friendlies" and you have "tangos" (not friendly). In my experience you are one or the other and unless or until you prove yourself then you're the other. My wife told me a long time ago I should have a license plate that reads 'Trust No 1".

So how does this fit in a buy/sell forum? The same basic way as say in E-bay. You enter at you own risk.

My suggestion on pricing is simple. We are not the police of pricing. If you see an ad that strikes you as wrong and feel it would be ill-advised for a purchaser to buy you have only 2-options. Shut up and ignore it and move on. Or report the ad to the forum mods and let them do their job. Really simple if you think about it.

In business it's simple. I as the seller get to set what I think is a fair price. You as the consumer get to either accept it or begin negations on what you think is a fair price. A third party has no say so in it unless that party is invited specifically at the request of either the seller or purchaser.

This goes the same with price gouging. It isn't right however you still have the same 2-options.

If you don't like it learn to deal with it.

Oh and read the rules their there for a purpose.


Don
 

jonoslack

Active member
You know what, if someone is going to buy a lens costing more than $5K and doesn't do their homework to understand pricing and understanding supply demand perhaps that is their own problem.

In addition, nobody knows what the final selling prices of these lenses turns out to be. Asking price is one thing. The negotiation that happens through PM's is not public. So, we really don't know what prices are actually being paid for these lenses.

Finally, the best way to reform the sellers trying to make a "stupid" amount of profit is to ignore them. They will either drop the price or go elsewhere.
I was going to chip in here, but you've said everything I think needs saying. If someone wants to sell a noctilux for $50,000, that's up to them . . . if someone wants to buy it . . . that's up to them - neither of these issues are problems for those of use who don't want to do these things!

Guy - have a great holiday.
 

David K

Workshop Member
Lots of interesting opinions here. I've read them all with an open mind and now find myself agreeing with everyone :)
 

Terry

New member
I was going to chip in here, but you've said everything I think needs saying. If someone wants to sell a noctilux for $50,000, that's up to them . . . if someone wants to buy it . . . that's up to them - neither of these issues are problems for those of use who don't want to do these things!
Jono- this isn't directed at you but since you referred to the Noctilux.... this whole thread the only thing that keeps popping into my mind are the f1 Nocti's that the early M8 adopters got with their with 30% off coupons. :wtf:
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Although I understand the attitude of 'buyer beware' that most seem to be advocating here (I don't personally agree but I'm European and we often see things very differently :D ), if the forum is getting the reputation for being a craiglist mkII then that hardly helps to preserve the reputation that GetDPI has deservedly achieved for being the friendliest photo forum on the net. What has troubled me is that although Guy has made plain that there was more behind the scenes, the immediate 'banning' reaction to the OP did certainly 'surprise' me until Guy's explanation. The whole 'hands off' approach being maintained seemed to clash with the seemingly harsh reaction to any questioning of the policy. A matter of mistaken perception but that was how it appeared until the clarification. Personally since a previous incident where what seemed to many to be an obvious scam was allowed to continue I avoid the B&S here personally. I prefer not to have to deal with the B&S like I would in a Craiglist like marketplace, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth and other forums do offer the option of a more relaxed buying experience. A great shame in what is otherwise the best, nicest and friendliest photo forum on the net bar none. Just my own musings on the issue...
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
The whole 'hands off' approach being maintained seemed to clash with the seemingly harsh reaction to any questioning of the policy
tell me about it... and even many of the non-mods have been pretty harsh about any questioning going on... even in the spirit of good member relations. I only want for the site's friendly and helpful demeanor to remain as it has in the other sub-forums. The overall attitude of the majority of this thread seems woefully out of place on this site.

That said... I DO feel the mods do a great job at what has got to be a difficult task.

Oh well... back to cleaning the office.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In our defense we don't read every thread and every post and there are 5 of us on hand. If you want a friendly safe place please help us and report these scams or under handed folks. We do need your help. This week alone Jack is in Ireland, Guy is in San Diego trying to have a vacation. Lol
Bob is usually on a flight to somewhere as well as Terry and poor Cindy could be left with handling the whole place and she lives in 3 parts of the country. Not the case on some of this but help us help you.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
tell me about it... and even many of the non-mods have been pretty harsh about any questioning going on... even in the spirit of good member relations. I only want for the site's friendly and helpful demeanor to remain as it has in the other sub-forums. The overall attitude of the majority of this thread seems woefully out of place on this site.

That said... I DO feel the mods do a great job at what has got to be a difficult task.

Oh well... back to cleaning the office.
I'm going back to the beach :salute:
 

rayyan

Well-known member
I am unable to determine a ' stupid ' profit as opposed to a ' intelligent ' profit
for ' luxury ' items in a free market where only the buyer and seller should determine the price.

Honesty, civility, courtesy, friendliness are all good attributes between forum members. As is honesty in buying and selling.

But calling some profits ' stupid ' while some other undetermined level of profit for luxury goods as acceptable is beyond my limited understanding
of a free market economy.

And I shall repeat that there is nothing immoral, illegal, unethical to try to make as much of a profit as one can on a luxury item in a free market; with the only caveat being that the seller not misrepresent the condition of the item being offered for sale. The seller wants to give it for free that too is welcome. If the buyer refuses to buy, that is the buyers right.

To say one believes in a market economy and then talk about limits to profits for luxury items is itself a contradiction.
 

Terry

New member
I used the term so I will explain. I was NOT talking stupid vs intelligent. I was talking a rate of return on your gear that is above and beyond what any normal investment would make.

You buy a car you expect for most of them to depreciate in value.
You buy a computer and newer models get faster and yours depreciates.
You buy an index funds of stocks you expect it to return a profit over time based on earnings
You buy a digital camera and you expect over time that it will depreciate.
You buy a Leica lens and in the darker days before the M8 came out you probably held your own on value and the were worth the same a little more or a little less.
Now the M9 comes out and buying lenses is leading to profits way above and beyond what one can reasonably expect from that sort of purchase.

That Is what I was calling a stupid profit.
 

Farnz

Member
In our defense we don't read every thread and every post and there are 5 of us on hand. If you want a friendly safe place please help us and report these scams or under handed folks. We do need your help. This week alone Jack is in Ireland, Guy is in San Diego trying to have a vacation. Lol
Bob is usually on a flight to somewhere as well as Terry and poor Cindy could be left with handling the whole place and she lives in 3 parts of the country. Not the case on some of this but help us help you.
Guy,

Your Mods (and Jack and you) do an excellent job. I can't help but notice that all 5 of you live in the same continent so wouldn't it help you to have some Mods from other continents to spread the load and maybe help with differing time zones and customs? For example, who's looking after the shop when you're all tucked up in bed?:eek: [For the avoidance of doubt this is not a subtle way of offering my services.:toocool:]

Pete.
 

Terry

New member
Guy,

Your Mods (and Jack and you) do an excellent job. I can't help but notice that all 5 of you live in the same continent so wouldn't it help you to have some Mods from other continents to spread the load and maybe help with differing time zones and customs? For example, who's looking after the shop when you're all tucked up in bed?:eek: [For the avoidance of doubt this is not a subtle way of offering my services.:toocool:]

Pete.
We don't sleep.....seriously
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono- this isn't directed at you but since you referred to the Noctilux.... this whole thread the only thing that keeps popping into my mind are the f1 Nocti's that the early M8 adopters got with their with 30% off coupons. :wtf:
I got a WATE - it cost me €1300 :ROTFL: (I still have it)


I used the term so I will explain. I was NOT talking stupid vs intelligent. I was talking a rate of return on your gear that is above and beyond what any normal investment would make.

You buy a car you expect for most of them to depreciate in value.
You buy a computer and newer models get faster and yours depreciates.
You buy an index funds of stocks you expect it to return a profit over time based on earnings
You buy a digital camera and you expect over time that it will depreciate.
You buy a Leica lens and in the darker days before the M8 came out you probably held your own on value and the were worth the same a little more or a little less.
Now the M9 comes out and buying lenses is leading to profits way above and beyond what one can reasonably expect from that sort of purchase.

That Is what I was calling a stupid profit.
Certainly I expect to lose money on my digital camera purchases (and I do, although not the same percentage as cars!).
However, I bought a 0.95 noctilux and a 24 'lux earlier this year, and I would not have dreamed of buying them if it wasn't for the current market prices - I didn't buy them to sell, but I did buy them in the knowledge that I probably could sell them at a profit.

I'm with Rayvan - in a market economy you get what you can for luxury goods . . . and you're polite, civil, courteous and friendly.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Hi Terry,

I read you. But disagree with the notion of a predetermined or some imagined level of profit that can/should be made on a luxury item.

Let the seller put a price on a luxury item for sale. Any price.

Let the market determine if he/she gets that price or not.

If there is a buyer willing to pay that price; then that is the market price for that luxury item at that point in time between those sellers/buyers.

That is a free market economy. My arguments are restricted to luxury items,
such as leica products, or Gucci, or Chanel and the like.

I cannot support the notion that some Leica users cannot afford some Leica lenses because the prices are too high and that a seller should be forced to ask for some imagined price to subsidize their luxury purchases.

I also do not have any problems with Leica putting up their prices for their products by whatever amount they choose. If the market can support their
price structure, good for them. If not, they shall have to revise and rethink.

One is not forced to choose Leica. But if one does want to have Leica and only Leica, then he/she must be willing to pay the market price for their goods. Whatever price the market determines that particular Leica product
should fetch. To me it is as simple as that.

Personally, if I cannot afford a Leica product I would buy something else, or forget about it. But I would not say that the asking price for the leica product I need is stupid, immoral, unethical, or illegal.

In any case it would not make any difference to the price.

The market shall determine it, as it always does.
 
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