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Free service in jeopardy?

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Terry

New member
Rayyan,
I'm only going to reply to the first sentence because that is all that relates to my post and the point I was making. Perhaps stupid was a bad choice of words to translate what I was meaning worldwide. I've bought and sold a lot of the Leica lenses (21, 28, 35, 50, 75, 90) some more than once. I made some money on a number of the sales. What has happened to pricing in the year since I made my last sale is staggering. Believe me after spending more than 25 years in the investment business I understand free markets, luxury goods, etc.

My only point was that some of these lens prices have given the owners a windfall of profits that was in no way a part of their original buy/sell decision.

It was not meant to be judgmental etc.
 

jonoslack

Active member
My only point was that some of these lens prices have given the owners a windfall of profits that was in no way a part of their original buy/sell decision.
Well, all I can say is hooray- it's nice that SOMETHING has afforded a profit!

I doubt the losses that so many of us have made on the financial markets was part of our original buy/sell decision either!

I'm with Rayvan - and his whole post.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Hello Terry.

I, at various times, was heading Treasury, Financial Control and Risk management for a very major international bank here. I did this for 30 years.

I too know a little about the market economy and how it operates. In Financial products, currencies, commodities and hedge funds.

Based on my limited experience, I still maintain that there is no price too high or too low for a luxury item.

Let the markets decide what the sustainable price point for Leica products is.

I went out of Leica and went long on gold options about 2 years ago. I couldn't afford a Noctilux.

Best wishes.
 

Terry

New member
And I agree on there not being a price too high or too low. That is why I specifically stated I was only responding to clarify the original point that I was making.

Hello Terry.

I, at various times, was heading Treasury, Financial Control and Risk management for a very major international bank here. I did this for 30 years.

I too know a little about the market economy and how it operates. In Financial products, currencies, commodities and hedge funds.

Based on my limited experience, I still maintain that there is no price too high or too low for a luxury item.

Let the markets decide what the sustainable price point for Leica products is.

I went out of Leica and went long on gold options about 2 years ago. I couldn't afford a Noctilux.

Best wishes.
 

kalex

Member
I've been watching these so called "non for profit for sale threads" and they are hilarious. What really kills it for me is these poor excuses that sellers tend to come up with like "oh I only opened it to test, didn't like it", blah blah blah. Call it what it is "I was lucky to find this lens in stock and now I want to make a profit of it". Thats totally fine in free market I could care less.

Another issue that I have noticed is misrepresentation of the condition. How can "unused" and "tested on balcony and my apartment" go together in one sentence.

Another issue I have is with sellers crying and bitching when someone posts to their threads. No pain no gain comes into mind. There is nothing wrong with making a profit and I'm guilty of it when Ipad2 came out but I never once moaned about comments in my threads. Seller wants to sell at mark up over MSRP and thats totally fine but don't come crying when people start posting and making comments about it.

I tend to agree with others the easiest solution would be to make these threads read only and limit bumps to certain time frame. This way I won't login to getdpi and get presented with 10 ads in a row of same seller commenting on his own threads.
 
I am also on watch enthusiast boards that also have B&S boards (timezone and rolexforums). As a collector, I flip watches just cuz I get bored and like to change every so often. What bugs me on the watch boards is that there are sellers that will offer a low price or scoop up good deals quickly and re-list the same watch for $1k or more almost immediately. Not sure that happens here but that bugs the crap of of me as it's not in the spirit of the community IMO.
 

Terry

New member
I am also on watch enthusiast boards that also have B&S boards (timezone and rolexforums). As a collector, I flip watches just cuz I get bored and like to change every so often. What bugs me on the watch boards is that there are sellers that will offer a low price or scoop up good deals quickly and re-list the same watch for $1k or more almost immediately. Not sure that happens here but that bugs the crap of of me as it's not in the spirit of the community IMO.
That we haven't overtly seen and hopefully won't. I can't say that everyone (including me) hangs on to gear for a long time but I believe on this forum gear is generally bought with the intent to use it.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Bet you can afford one now :)
Good morning David..

My put option on the $ expires not too long from now. Maybe then something
tangible might seem worthwhile.

The call option on gold is renewable. I think I shall ride it till I know what's going to happen to the EURO!! Leica's base currency is what interests me!!:D

The markets seems very jittery and the Eurozone is looking shaky!! Hmmm!!;) I don't have any kids to put thru college, so being risk averse is what I shall become. Being retired and all that.

Stay well David.
 

fishandfowl

New member
Leica Prices, Speculation and Poetic Justice

A recent post, which I think might have been part of this thread, referenced the fact that many owners of current Leica M lenses obtained them during the special discount program that Leica conducted to placate owners of early M8s who were disappointed with them. As people who, between my wife and I, owned three M8's, I felt fortunate to have been able to buy several new lenses at greatly reduced prices and, in some cases, to be able later to sell them for a lot more, mostly on the auction site. It made up for some of the early M8's deficiencies which, of course, was exactly why Leica conducted the program, and it went a long way in my opinion toward keeping the M8 from being still-born. Indeed, it might have discouraged some very unhappy leica owners from organizing a class action suit against the Company. I actually got a widely distributed email that apparently went out to many posters on the Leica Users' Forum that talked about a Class Action, which, fortunately for Leica and us, never materialized.

Thus, early adopters of the first digital Leica M got some compensation for what many of them viewed as a camera that was defective right out of the box. Most of us who had M8's, even those of us who have since sold them and moved up to the M8.2 and then the M9, still have scores of B+W or Leica (made in Japan) UV IR filters to correct the color shift from black to magenta that the M8 produced. And we appreciated that Leica finally corrected the noisy shutter with the discreet mode in the M9, a fix that eventually was accessible via a firmware upgrade for the M8 that I gave to my son. Who knows, maybe Leica will soon provide LCD screens for the M9 that have resolution almost as good as some of the $500 digital point-and-shoots?

But I digress.

Most often, owning pricey Leica cameras and their pricey lenses has been a one-way street, particularly for digital equipment, which quickly depreciates.

However, when, as in the case of deeply discounted M lenses for early M8 owners, or in the case of the current dramatic shortages of lenses that has created a speculative sellers' market for M lenses, owners are able easily to recover what they paid for them, and, in some cases even make a nice capital gain on them . . . this is what is called poetic justice.

There is nothing immoral about this.

It would be different if this involved speculation in a critical commodity during war time, such as what happened with rationed gasoline during WWII in the U.S. and in England. In those situations selling a scarce rationed commodity for a profit, even a commodity as pedestrian as butter, was labeled "profiteering" and could earn one who violated the rules a large fine or even jail time — a situation that has recently been a topic in several segments in the highly acclaimed PBS MasterpieceTheatre series,"Foyle's War."

But, as another poster said earlier today in this thread, in the case of luxury goods that are in very short supply and in very high demand buyers and sellers are free to make their own market, and there is nothing wrong—indeed there is sometimes poetic justice—when collectors, enthusiasts and "prosumers" can essentially realize a capital gain by buying quality Leica equipment, holding it for a relatively short time and then selling it when the price rises, perhaps, as now, fanned by intense demand among new M9 owners and especially among the newly wealthy of Hong Kong, Shanghai and Singapore.

My own approach in this market to pricing equipment that I no longer want, mostly to make room for new Leica gear such as an M9-P or an S2 kit, is to check the prices that are being fetched in Completed Listings on the big auction site as well as the Buy-it-Now asking prices on that site. I then ask only 5 to 10% higher than that, occasionally a bit more, for the lenses I want to sell. I feel no embarrassment doing this, and I do not feel any obligation to price what I want to sell for a lot less simply because one or more forum members complain about "selling above retail."

As another member put it earlier, to paraphrase, "Retail where and in what currency and when? With or without local taxes and shipping? "

Lastly, to get specific, why is there anything immoral or unethical about trying to get $12,950 for a Mint or mint- used Noctilux f/.095 when the big auction site lists a used one from Adorama in EX+ condition for $13,888 and shows a completed listing for another used one that went for $14,500?
 

monza

Active member
There is nothing moral or unethical about that.

The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay.

A completed auction doesn't necessarily mean a completed transaction. Or even a safe transaction for that matter. And BIN asking prices on ebay are pretty much meaningless, except for the BINs that sell instantly; if a BIN doesn't sell within an hour or at most a day, the product is probably priced too high. I'd rather sell something here for 5-10% LESS then what they may or may not go for on ebay. Selling fees here are ZERO, for one; a free service provided by upstanding forum owners. :) Further, when I sell on ebay, I don't get to choose the buyer. There is a degree if risk in any transaction, but it's arguably greater on ebay. Some would argue considerably greater...

There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
The market is the market, but I am keen on representing the goods for sale correctly and accurately.
Goods that are "New" after a few tests on-camera will not be tolerated.
that counts as used in my book with all the warrantee issues and so forth.
thanks
-bob
 

Terry

New member
Robert,
I'm in your camp. I always sell here below what I list for on ebay to cover the fees, the hassle factor of completely unknown flakey buyers etc.

There is nothing moral or unethical about that.

The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay.

A completed auction doesn't necessarily mean a completed transaction. Or even a safe transaction for that matter. And BIN asking prices on ebay are pretty much meaningless, except for the BINs that sell instantly; if a BIN doesn't sell within an hour or at most a day, the product is probably priced too high. I'd rather sell something here for 5-10% LESS then what they may or may not go for on ebay. Selling fees here are ZERO, for one; a free service provided by upstanding forum owners. :) Further, when I sell on ebay, I don't get to choose the buyer. There is a degree if risk in any transaction, but it's arguably greater on ebay. Some would argue considerably greater...

There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
The market is the market, but I am keen on representing the goods for sale correctly and accurately.
Goods that are "New" after a few tests on-camera will not be tolerated.
that counts as used in my book with all the warrantee issues and so forth.
thanks
-bob
Agreed, buy a car sign the paperwork and immediately turns from new to used. Same with camera equipment - buy it and it immediately becomes used. It could be construed as "like new" but never new again.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Agreed, buy a car sign the paperwork and immediately turns from new to used. Same with camera equipment - buy it and it immediately becomes used. It could be construed as "like new" but never new again.
I also have no idea and frankly no interest in researching what happens with regard to a manufacturer's warranty when stuff is re-sold. That it totally up to a prospective buyer to figure out.
-bob
 

rayyan

Well-known member
The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay. ( Quoting monza ).
..

Either the B/S section here is a free market or it is not. Period.
( Once again I speak with regard to luxury items like Leica only ).

The market does not care about community, family, friends, and such wishy washy notions ( that indeed are imperative for/within a society/community). The market is neither good nor bad. The market is neither a friend nor a foe.

One makes a profit ( in a honest transaction ) the market is not joyous; If one suffers a loss, the market could care less.

The market is what it is. The market.

There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously. ( Quoting monza ).

Please do not confuse civil, honest, friendly interactions between forum members ( and people at large ) with the proper functioning of a free market.

A free market ( for luxury good ) does not and should not care about philanthropy or altruism. That would destroy its very existence.

However, I applaud and fully support Guy and his collegues that they are taking this issue seriously and shall do whatever I can to maintain the strong sense of community between members and visitors to this forum; as friends.

But I am against any interference in the operation of a free market system ( for luxury items ).


The market is the market, but I am keen on representing the goods for sale correctly and accurately.
Goods that are "New" after a few tests on-camera will not be tolerated.
that counts as used in my book with all the warrantee issues and so forth.
thanks
-bob
I agree with Bob with his quote above. And support and thank Bob and his
friends who monitor this ' perilous :eek:' section.

Regards.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In all seriousness between us using e- bay as a guide is well sort of misguided. To many variables on e- bay to judge value of items as many just post at really high value than it gets knocked down latter as Monza pointed out. I personally don't like the comparison but it's a personal call on my part not a forum one.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Y'know, all this bally-hoo in the buy-sell forum would go away if everyone would just follow the first unofficial unwritten rule that before anything is posted for sale at GetDPI, it's offered for first consideration to Jack and Guy...

:ROTFL:
 

monza

Active member
My comments weren't really pertaining to a market. This forum has traffic for a reason, and the owners have a right to make sure their product is perceived as they wanted it to be perceived.

I do agree with your post, rayyan.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Y'know, all this bally-hoo in the buy-sell forum would go away if everyone would just follow the first unofficial unwritten rule that before anything is posted for sale at GetDPI, it's offered for first consideration to Jack and Guy...

:ROTFL:
That could be construed as insider trading.:ROTFL:
 
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