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Free service in jeopardy?

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GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Insider trading? I'm happy to stand up and state that there's plenty of insider trading going on here :D Buy and sell enough here and it happens naturally. The B&S forum isn't the only place where deals are done amongst friends in this community. :p
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Insider trading? I'm happy to stand up and state that there's plenty of insider trading going on here :D Buy and sell enough here and it happens naturally. The B&S forum isn't the only place where deals are done amongst friends in this community. :p
Deals amongst friends is not what is being discussed. Such deals might not reflect the true market price of a luxury item.
 

GDI

Member
The question is, is doing that acceptable on this forum, or should such sales be posted on ebay. ( Quoting monza ).
..

Either the B/S section here is a free market or it is not. Period.
( Once again I speak with regard to luxury items like Leica only ).

The market does not care about community, family, friends, and such wishy washy notions ( that indeed are imperative for/within a society/community). The market is neither good nor bad. The market is neither a friend nor a foe.

One makes a profit ( in a honest transaction ) the market is not joyous; If one suffers a loss, the market could care less.

The market is what it is. The market.

There is a strong sense of community here, and that is an easy thing to lose, which is why Guy et al are taking this seriously. ( Quoting monza ).

Please do not confuse civil, honest, friendly interactions between forum members ( and people at large ) with the proper functioning of a free market.

A free market ( for luxury good ) does not and should not care about philanthropy or altruism. That would destroy its very existence.

However, I applaud and fully support Guy and his collegues that they are taking this issue seriously and shall do whatever I can to maintain the strong sense of community between members and visitors to this forum; as friends.

But I am against any interference in the operation of a free market system ( for luxury items ).




I agree with Bob with his quote above. And support and thank Bob and his
friends who monitor this ' perilous :eek:' section.

Regards.

This is all true, but we need to keep in mind that the freedom to provide information or opinion is not inconsistent with free markets. The provision of comparative information, product reviews, customer service reviews, lowest price information and tools, etc., by third parties to a buyer in a transaction is legal, common and just as ethical as charging $3,000 over list for a used lens.

I don't see why a seller should be protected from the disclosure of information that should be available to the buying public. To say that it is the buyer's responsibility to find out the information from a source other than their online friends in a community marketplace seems odd. Especially when the same marketplace accepts the posting of information which is complimentary to the seller's offer.

If comments are possible, then why try to limit them? If Jack and Guy want to prevent comments that provide information that may give a potential buyer pause, whether it be pricing, item qualities, or seller trustworthiness, it is their right - but I think enforcing it fairly and without conflict is all but impossible. The only solution I see that would solve the problem is disallowing comments, it is done in other forums and you don't see this kind of give, take, and angst.

(I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Insider trading? I'm happy to stand up and state that there's plenty of insider trading going on here :D Buy and sell enough here and it happens naturally. The B&S forum isn't the only place where deals are done amongst friends in this community. :p
Guilty

I help many forum members purchase high dollar items. I am a consultant too :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
(I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )
You could be on to something there :D I bought a very nice red car a few years ago that was the subject of a similar buyers frenzy market and the original buyer was out over $80k on that deal to me. Eventually sanity reigns and someone will doubtless get stuck with the goods - just look at the property speculation market of the last few years.

Guy: Insider trading? Absolutely :thumbs: :D
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
The market does not care about community, family, friends, and such wishy washy notions ( that indeed are imperative for/within a society/community). The market is neither good nor bad. The market is neither a friend nor a foe.
Someone please prove to me that this forum is, indeed, a true and "proper" free market. It's not... it is already moderated to a certain extent (to which most of us are not privy) and beholden to rules that are outside the free market ideals.

This whole issue has come to the fore because certain wishy-washy notions are important to some people that dwell here... mostly because most here are humans, not abstract constructs that perform properly in a non-social vacuum.

My name is Shelby Lewis and I care about the "wishy washy" "bullshit". There, I've outed myself. :D

Time for another cup of late night coffee.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
This is all true, but we need to keep in mind that the freedom to provide information or opinion is not inconsistent with free markets. The provision of comparative information, product reviews, customer service reviews, lowest price information and tools, etc., by third parties to a buyer in a transaction is legal, common and just as ethical as charging $3,000 over list for a used lens.

I don't see why a seller should be protected from the disclosure of information that should be available to the buying public. To say that it is the buyer's responsibility to find out the information from a source other than their online friends in a community marketplace seems odd. Especially when the same marketplace accepts the posting of information which is complimentary to the seller's offer.

If comments are possible, then why try to limit them? If Jack and Guy want to prevent comments that provide information that may give a potential buyer pause, whether it be pricing, item qualities, or seller trustworthiness, it is their right - but I think enforcing it fairly and without conflict is all but impossible. The only solution I see that would solve the problem is disallowing comments, it is done in other forums and you don't see this kind of give, take, and angst.

(I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )
Hi GDI..I do not understand why I am being quoted here.:confused:

Best.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Someone please prove to me that this forum is, indeed, a true and "proper" free market. It's not... it is already moderated to a certain extent (to which most of us are not privy) and beholden to rules that are outside the free market ideals.

This whole issue has come to the fore because certain wishy-washy notions are important to some people that dwell here... mostly because most here are humans, not abstract constructs that perform properly in a non-social vacuum.

My name is Shelby Lewis and I care about the "wishy washy" "bullshit". There, I've outed myself. :D

Time for another cup of late night coffee.
Hi Shelby..

I fully respect that people expect civility, friendliness, courtesy, honesty
in their interactions with other members on this forum. And so they should.

But that is no reason that a seller cannot set any price he/she chooses for a Leica item that he/she is offering for sale in the B/S section of this forum.

The price set by a seller of Leica products in the B/S section of this forum does not have to be based on any consideration other than what he/she feels the market will bear.

The only human element to all this price point determination is that the seller, and the viewers are human. That's it. Other considerations, however
desirable, need not enter the equation.

But civility during interactions with fellow forum members, I am sure you shall agree, must be respected at all times.

Kindest regards.
 

GDI

Member
Hi GDI..I do not understand why I am being quoted here.:confused:

Best.

Just because I agree with your points on the characteristics of a free market.

My post was not meant to be critical of your view, I just wanted to point out we do not have a true free market here since some information is suppressed. And, therefore, the arguments in favor of unchallenged pricing in the name of a free market are not valid. Of course the rules are the rules, and however the owners decide to operate is fine with me.
 

kalex

Member
This is all true, but we need to keep in mind that the freedom to provide information or opinion is not inconsistent with free markets. The provision of comparative information, product reviews, customer service reviews, lowest price information and tools, etc., by third parties to a buyer in a transaction is legal, common and just as ethical as charging $3,000 over list for a used lens.

I don't see why a seller should be protected from the disclosure of information that should be available to the buying public. To say that it is the buyer's responsibility to find out the information from a source other than their online friends in a community marketplace seems odd. Especially when the same marketplace accepts the posting of information which is complimentary to the seller's offer.

If comments are possible, then why try to limit them? If Jack and Guy want to prevent comments that provide information that may give a potential buyer pause, whether it be pricing, item qualities, or seller trustworthiness, it is their right - but I think enforcing it fairly and without conflict is all but impossible. The only solution I see that would solve the problem is disallowing comments, it is done in other forums and you don't see this kind of give, take, and angst.

(I will point out that over time my position on this subject has shifted a good bit, could it be that I am influenced by the current tulip..er, Leica mania? )

GDI explained it perfectly. Everybody keeps saying lets have free market, well lets have it with all the comments. Then buyer can take all the information presented to him and make his/her decision. Why limit the information. Btw comments were not degrading or price policing. It was stated that x lens is way above retail and some people commented on their views of waiting for it to be available and such.

Monza is also correct about his ebay observations. Ebay can't be used to determine market value because ebay is a different animal. You look at closed auctions that are in green. Technically it means that item sold on ebay. But there is alot of stuff going on in the background that nobody knows about. Did buyer pay for the item? Was it a scam, was it paid with stolen credit card?
Maybe buyer had ebay or paypal promotional certificates and bought it with those which may put the price of the item at 10%-30% cheaper than what it got sold at. I participated at one of those slickdeals and was able to obtain $500 coupons that I used on ebay. There were people who managed to get a lot more. Also ebay doesn't allow sellers to post negative feedback about the buyers so you will never know if the item that sold was paid for or not. Only way to tell is if u see seller posting same item again.
Usually on all the forums that I participate in people sell below ebay prices not above them.
Also don't forget about fees that one must pay. Between Paypal/ebay and shipping its about 15% of the total value
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Folks your mixing the debate. No one cares about the market what we care about is the commentary that follows the OP ad. If your a buyer ask the questions that you need answered to make the purchase. What is the issue at hand is the negative comments that follow these ads. This ends now. It is a classified ad and it will remain one just like a newspaper ad. You get the chance to ask questions you do NOT get the chance to say I bought this yesterday for 1000 dollars less for example and such negative comments like
this. Our issue is these seemingly endless debates on FS ads. Stay out of folks ads if your not interested in buying with lame comments. You want to talk about a item than post it in the forum section and debate till the cows come home. Not here in someone's ad. If I listed a phase 28mm lens for example as a FS ad than I would be extremely pissed if some knucklehead kept saying how much this lens sucked or was overpriced. It simple is not fair and quite rude to get into these debates on a FS ad. The seller has no chance in hell to sell a item for even a fair price with this kind of commentary going on.

Now we control the for sale ads as they are posted. If things from a seller make no sense or seems to be miss communicating his ad properly we than ask them to make certain changes to there ad. Just did it yesterday to say LNIB not new. What we are after is honest for sale ads that describe the item correctly and to keep the commentary off these ads. You want to debate take it to the forum itself not in someone's ad it is just flat out rude.

If you consistently get involved in these debates on FS ads than sorry your in a world of hurt. It ends today. Not sure how much clearer I need to be stay out of the ads unless you are a buyer and have legitimate questions to ask. If you really want to say something to the sell than PM him or her. That is what the PM system is for. If you have a problem with there price than PM them and Kindly let them know it seems to high or whatever you feel is necessary. But be a Friend about too. This is a no harassment site and it will always be one. Let's make that perfectly clear right now. Your harassing sellers with commentary that does not belong on FS ads.
 

Terry

New member
To add to Guy's comments....We don't have the moderator bandwidth to look at every post to every thread. If the messages Guy just imparted are not being followed on a buy/sell thread, just report the post (little blue triangle with ! on th bottom left of the post). All of the moderators get the report and we generally ping each other to ensure that it gets resolved and that all stay in the loop.
 

NomadicTy

New member
I guess this is the getdpi B&S therapy thread? haha!

I am new here, so my views may not hold much weight. And yes, I did chime in with my opinion in the thread that I think brought about this thread. I did not "price police", but I did state my issues with the same items from the same seller being in different threadS that kept being bumped by every thought that went through his mind. My comments may have been against the rules, but I'm not sure. But at that point, I was starting to think getdpi is nothing more than a prettier craigslist. So I did not really care if I get banned or not.

I completely agree with GDI and kalex. If this is truly a free market, both negatives and positive comments will be allowed. I cannot think of any online vendors that I regularly purchase from that did not allow both negative and positive comments (BH, Amazon, etc). Maybe there is a correlation between vendors that allow open discourse and the perception that everything is more in the up and up?

That, or no comments allowed at all.

And basing pricing on ebay prices -- I think those people should just sell it on ebay. I always thought forums were better places to buy for better bargains. This is due to the fact that the forums are more 'anonymous', and that you would not have ebay AND paypal to assist with conflict resolutions. So one is taking more risks buying from the forums.

Just my decreasing value 2 cents (US)...

BTW, kudos to Guy and gang for allowing this open discussion.
 

NomadicTy

New member
I guess I took too long typing up my response. I now see Guys' response (#111) and ruling.

Please disregard my post (#113).
 

Terry

New member
NomadicTy

I'm not sure how commenting on a products pros and cons (after buying it) on a site like B&H or Adorama is analogous to making comments about the merits of a product on someone's buy sell thread.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You should report those bumps to us as we do not always see this . Again folks participation is greatly valued and reporting something to us like this bumping practice is certainly one we want to know about and stop. Frankly I am getting no reports and all this crap is happening. Sorry we don't have eyes behind our heads. You want to really help than report this stuff we will act on it.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The problem is at one time you will want to sell something here and you get a person tearing down your item or it's price. You will certainly not be happy about it and than we have to go in and edit,delete and everything else but you still would have no chance of selling it since all that stuff went on. All that for zilch. If these negative comments are not there and your price and conditions are within a buyers comfort zone than you will most likely sell your item even if it is over list as we have seen lately. This area should be clean from this type Of harassment and that is how I will describe it and it is against the rules. We here to be fair to both buyer and sellers. Other wise it is just not a great place to buy and sell.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That's 10 a day if I made money from them than my wife would be really happy. Alas it's about 5 dollars a year from this place.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 
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