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The end of tolerances reached ?

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well for me the technology of MF in the last couple years has actually helped me on a couple levels. First MF itself just by the sheer fact I can get a tremendous file for any need imaginably. I have clients that go big a lot but I also have clients or jobs that are in the grab and go category. Which puts me in a situation where I need both 35 and MF . Now the technology alone from Phase here has changed that a lot with sensor plus. Since the acquisition of my old P40 I have been able to cheat this 2 system setup and use my back for more uses. From a business standpoint the ROI has been much more acceptable by plan to own this technology in MF. I simple get more use out of MF. now today with the IQ160 which no matter how I slice the cheese was a even bigger investment than the P40, here I had to not only take a bigger jump in the tech but also a very large upgrade fee to get to full frame and 60mpx. Now this took a load of thought and more important the justification of it. I know many think I just like the toy factor it really is not the case. I really have to justify a 20k upgrade in my own head first and the ROi that comes with. I gained a extra 5 mpx in sensor plus which pretty much buries any Pro level 35 with quality of file is equal too or better. That is a big gain. Monday the back gets switched to full resolution for ad work. So with one back I can switch back and forth depending on need at hand.

To me this is a huge benefit in technology that gives me the freedom and ROI to eliminate the 35mm from my bags. I still have a small Sony but more as a cheap shooting solution than anything else.

Now the IQ brings another factor in as it is much easier to use with a tech cam. Okay this part is a long reply to this technology which I won't get into but as a business and as a artist I am able to mend those two together and get the best of both worlds . So in effect the technology has helped me grow as a shooter but also being a responsible business man.

My wife may not think so . LOL. But the truth is I solved problems and frankly that is a Pros job is to solve someone's needs in art. Now I can solve my own needs. This is all good and next step for me at least is a tech came that also gives me a third option on platform from one back. After 36 years doing this I never had my needs filled like I do today. Case in point I started digital back in 1990 and it sucked bad, we have really grown here and new tech will help the next guy if not me.
 

Thierry

New member
Stefan,

Am not sure why it needs to attack Alpa such frontally and directly (by the name), something which I wasn't expecting. I was commenting on a general basis, what happens and what will always happen in a world of technology, not meaning to speak about any particular brand.

Therefore, let me just answer point by point, right below and directly in your post and comments. Without wanting to argue by any means, it needs to be corrected factually.

Best regards
Thierry

Hi Thierry

well, seems to be not quite. See color casts, see focusing problems and see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow (iPhone Holder and Viewfinder Plus app).

Well, so what? There are no focusing problems if you know your gear and are a professional. To pretend that Alpa (and other brands) is (are) "attempting somehow" implies that they did not succeed. What a claim. Again, there are thousands out shooting daily and getting what they need, without any problem. As for colour casts, it's the same story.

But there needs to be a clear cut. The actual concepts do stop here.
The problems may be handled for now with 80 Mpix. But what next ?
If you want to make resolution larger, get electronic finders and plug the devices "into the soon to be everwhere cloud" there needs to be a radical change.

Changes always take place at the appropriate timing. There will not be a clear cut. So it has been, so it will be. So what you mean to say, is that every photographers has to throw away its current gear, because he is not able to get his work done?

The Japanese have understood, take a look at their concept cameras.
My criticism goes to the actual professional "Highend camp"- where are your ideas , where are your visions ? What is the most wishful items your customers want and how can we deliver ?

It is somehow insulting to pretend here that the "high-end camp" does not have any concepts nor ideas, as much for camera manufacturers, as for those providing the best optics and digital backs since years (in fact since the begin of the digital age). Do you really believe that they are not some sensed people in those companies thinking about future?

I don´t hear that ! And Thierry - as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old. Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe -

It does, effectively.

but I don´t think this also will work for tomorrows escalations of the forementioned
complications. There is a limit where even Swiss cannot pass.

Let's see, and not speculate what the future is about.

So: where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?
But not only Alpa, what does Hasselblad say, what is the statement of Phase/Leaf about this ? How will Rodenstock and Schneider position themselves for these tasks ?
A new electronic shutter ? (20 years available by Sinar and Horseman)
Lenses with a little bit better Optics ? (does this really change something ? No !)
Develop technology which already exists in the consumer market with 5 -10 years delay ?

Stefan, are you seriously thinking what you are writing? I simply have no comment to this.

15-20 ago the digital photography evolution was driven by Leaf, Dicomed, Megavison, Imacon.

Today the news come from Japan or China. Is it professional to use outdated technology with the sole advantage of higher resolution ?
(Slower, complicated, Non connected ......)
Phase has done some steps in the right direction, with levelling a better display and the attempt for a better live view.
But why no CMOS ? How much easier and more efficient would be a camera that actually shows you whats captured with 100 % or even more Zoom, if you want even at darkness or with any extreme lens attached ?

That news come from Japan and China (and some other far-east countries), doesn't mean that there are no news elsewhere, beside the fact that new technologies and products have always been developed in those Asian countries, since the ancient times.

No Thierry -the Pro´s are sleeping, what Siebel demands he certainly does, but I´m sure he also makes a lot of his money now with 35mm bodies - not because of quality or better sharpness. Read what he wrote - it´s exactly on point:

>>It is important to not underestimate how much pressure there is on the top shooters and the MF manufacturers to keep innovating. For me, the minute something becomes the "in" look, it is time for me to be doing something else. There are many more shooters running this line of thinking, and most of them run below the radar. Having access to new innovations can often drive new image styles.<<

I am a 100% agreeing with what Bryan is writing, obviously, simply not with your comments and bashing of the existing products. Again, people (in our debate the photographers) work with what they have, whatever this gear is, the latest most expensive technology or the must outdated gear. Usually there is even an emotional factor involved in the type of gear they are using. Most of those photographers are professionals with years of experience and knowledge of how to produce superior images. And they know which gear fits them the best. They are living, working and producing today, and from the many photographers I have got the chance to meet and from whom I could see the work, those produced images are outstanding.
As for innovation, it is part of the cycle, it happens, if we want or not, at its own pace (apparently too slow for you, if I understand it right), and everybody will have to deal and do with what will come.


Innovation does not mean keep the old stuff as long as possible, even if it hurts.

That is somehow insulting, not for myself, but for many photographers. All deserve respect, no matter which gear they are producing and making an earning with.

Regards

Stefan
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Let's try to be careful about legal stuff with any company if we can avoid that I think it is best overall as it avoids other legal issues for all concerned. We really don't want to get into tit for tat on that area. Thanks I would appreciate this. Guy
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Thierry

these questions go to the whole industry, but it seems nobody wants to hear them !
Why do you feel attacked ? I didn´t ! I am just asking what the plans are for a future vision ? I have deep sympathy for people who do something like this on their website

http://m.alpa.ch/dms/about/corporate-sound/ALPA_CorporateSoundLogo.mp3

But Thierry, as canon has done this World expo 2010 and presented their ideas, I ask- is this so difficult to ask what is the professional Highend Photoindustry after ?
I don´t hear anything. Not on the Photokina and not on the press nor on the internet.
The news are passing by. A company like Sigma, who using the Foveon chip at least show their flag, whatever it costs them... but this is refreshing. Does it get them any respect ? NO - instead everybody is bashing them.
Could it be that Photographers are conservatives ?
What happened in the german Photoscala Forum after the message was published that the iPhone Forum is now the most frequented one on Flickr and -god beware- some innocent souls said that there is plenty of creative resources to be seen in these photos, it seems clear that for many young people this is the way to express, knowing nada about phototechnics but doing great shots - democratic photography, put online and communicated with plenty of users, just for fun. You should have read the comments of the so called serious Photographers (junk, not worth looking at,destroying photography.....etc.pp)
this I call disrespect, who says that an iPhone Photo cannot be marvelous in it´s whole unity and creativity ?
I have used large format and MF for 35 years now. I was one of the first users in Germany for MFDB - Bigshot, Leaf brick, Megavision, Phase scanners.
But to me it does not feel right anymore. Our camera is something for bringing back fun to highend Photography, using Canon lenses and allowing superwideangles with maximum resolution.
Why does a photographer (me ) have to build this ? where is the industry in this game ? Couldn´t they have seen what happens and with much more resources do this even better ?
I love photography, in my heart and I live it. It must be allowed to ask some questions especially if others also have asked them but maybe not in one letter or in a defined Thesis.

Greetings from Munich

Stefan Steib HCam.de
 

Thierry

New member
Stefan,

I do not feel personally attacked, but you named Alpa in conjunction with the words and sentences, among others, "see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow", "Highend camp", "as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old", "Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe", "where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?", ...., as well as the full MFDB industry, included the photographers (sleeping, using outdated gear, ...) which can only be taken as a lack of respect.

I wished to answer in the name of Alpa, which I did in the name of the "right of reply" and a little bit in the name of the other manufacturers and photographers who all come out of your comments as stupid and not awaken, for the record.

Best regards
Thierry


Thierry

these questions go to the whole industry, but it seems nobody wants to hear them !
Why do you feel attacked ? I didn´t ! I am just asking what the plans are for a future vision ? I have deep sympathy for people who do something like this on their website

http://m.alpa.ch/dms/about/corporate-sound/ALPA_CorporateSoundLogo.mp3

But Thierry, as canon has done this World expo 2010 and presented their ideas, I ask- is this so difficult to ask what is the professional Highend Photoindustry after ?
I don´t hear anything. Not on the Photokina and not on the press nor on the internet.
The news are passing by. A company like Sigma, who using the Foveon chip at least show their flag, whatever it costs them... but this is refreshing. Does it get them any respect ? NO - instead everybody is bashing them.
Could it be that Photographers are conservatives ?
What happened in the german Photoscala Forum after the message was published that the iPhone Forum is now the most frequented one on Flickr and -god beware- some innocent souls said that there is plenty of creative resources to be seen in these photos, it seems clear that for many young people this is the way to express, knowing nada about phototechnics but doing great shots - democratic photography, put online and communicated with plenty of users, just for fun. You should have read the comments of the so called serious Photographers (junk, not worth looking at,destroying photography.....etc.pp)
this I call disrespect, who says that an iPhone Photo cannot be marvelous in it´s whole unity and creativity ?
I have used large format and MF for 35 years now. I was one of the first users in Germany for MFDB - Bigshot, Leaf brick, Megavision, Phase scanners.
But to me it does not feel right anymore. Our camera is something for bringing back fun to highend Photography, using Canon lenses and allowing superwideangles with maximum resolution.
Why does a photographer (me ) have to build this ? where is the industry in this game ? Couldn´t they have seen what happens and with much more resources do this even better ?
I love photography, in my heart and I live it. It must be allowed to ask some questions especially if others also have asked them but maybe not in one letter or in a defined Thesis.

Greetings from Munich

Stefan Steib HCam.de
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Admin Note: All opinions expressed in this forum are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views, beliefs or opinions of the forum owners, operators or administrative staff.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Bryan has summed it up wonderfully: there will always be right cameras/optics/accessories using the latest technologies and producing the best possible images. So it was in the past, so it is currently, and so it shall be in the future.

Best regards
Thierry
Excellent summary! :salute:
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
>>>>I do not feel personally attacked, but you named Alpa in conjunction with the words and sentences, among others, "see Alpas own attempts to get there somehow", "Highend camp", "as nice Alpas idea of precision is, this idea is some years old", "Does it solve todays problems ? Maybe", "where is the consequence and vision of Alpa to Digital evolution ?", ...., as well as the full MFDB industry, included the photographers (sleeping, using outdated gear, ...) which can only be taken as a lack of respect.>>>>

Ah- if this was the case I apologize , maybe we should speak german then, reading between the lines is something I don´t do, this was not my intention.
Actual attempt to get there somehow was regarding the iPhone and Viewfinder app which I absolutely welcome - it shows that People at Alpa think into this direction.

I am absolutly sure they could say something about it, but this is the funny thing, nobody really answers on these questions !
Instead the political approach starts, blowing out a fog cloud.
Mr. Hakonsson was about the only one recently speaking clear words, and after this interview I have not heard any more from him too. I am Member of the PMA and read their magazines, I read about most of the Websites for Pro Highendstuff, but all over - the same - silence.

And Thierry - fact is, Autofocus if it exists on the MF bodies is about 2-3 slower than on 35mm, I´d say the status of MF Autofocus is now about at 2002-2003 canon/Nikon AF performance (best estimation).

Pentax did show with the 645D what the direction could be, I also applaud to the Guts of Leica to Launch the S2, but both lack on either the quality (Pentax -I don´t think so but this is how many also on this forum say!) of lenses, or the number of available lenses(Leica), keeping them from getting into full success.

I also know that todays Highend manufacturers have shrunk, the budgets are not like they once used to be. So it is incredibly difficult to sport innovation combined with keeping the company running healthy.
But this is what will ignite the customers, a vision can even run a whole company- see RED, they know what they want to do, sometimes a bit too far into the future, but they do it and they talk about it.

Of course this is american style , but I wish us Europeans sometimes got more of this spirit of enthusiasm.

So once again - pulling the words out of the context and looking for an insult is misleading, I did not want to attack anybody, especially not you as we know each other and I know what good work you do.

But I am still waiting for ANYBODY to give me a helpful hint what will come after the "Hybrid Aera" as I have called it before in this thread.
Is there nobody who has a wish what his camera should do or behave like ? Come on - the customers are the most valuable source, tell us your ideas and wishes, may they sound totally crazy, there is always a core and a thought that will catch on. Did you know that Mobile phones only exist because of Startreck´s communicator ?

I´d be so curious to hear about how fellow photographers would propose how to get this improved.

regards

Stefan Steib HCam.de
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well Bryan-the following statements are not from me- you may guess who said this (about Phase One- translated from german by me):

....Journalism-, Portrait- and Marriagephotographers.... are better off using other systems.....

Hasselblad, Leica and Phase One should cooperate to win new users for Mediumformat because the number of users is smaller than we would wish.....

We are looking for makers of CMOS sensors, CCD´s Sensors seem to be hitting their limits,we would not have a problem to realize such a solution together with other manufacturers.......if medium format wants to survive, all thinkable cooperations are necessary !

Now guess who said this ?
Henrik Hakonsson - Phase One - taken from his Interview in german magazine Profifoto 4/2010.

So What happened ? Did Phase not get a CMOS ?
There is a lot more on this Interview (one of the most aspiring and important documents I have read during the last years !).

But interesting that writing these ideas here under my name is getting these responses ?

Bryan - the shrinking is happening, the Market is moving, you would certainly not call someone a bad photographer because he uses a canon or nikon body. Or would you ?

regards

Stefan Steib HCam.de
Stefan,

I sense some confusion between "content" and "presentation and of content" in your message ... and frankly, in the messages from others here.

A professional photographer need not move to 60 or 80 or eventually 100 meg to separate themselves from their contemporaries. They need unique vision, style, and ideas to do that ... and many can do it with far less than the "big boy toys" we all love to discuss. Whether more is better, depends on that vision is, and what ideas are being expressed especially in terms of presentation ...but I've yet seen a camera that can come up with a good idea ... or even a bad one :ROTFL:

The image making world has changed, and it is far from done doing so. Of the billions of images available for viewing, I'd hazard a guess that a vast incalculable majority are viewed on a computer, iPad/iPhone, or TV screen. This fact of modern life renders high-end photography as a much more personal experience, or a tremendously limited one. All we can do on the internet is provide a simulation presentation, and try to tout how good it actually is.

So, the question is what exactly IS the end of tolerances? And for whom is it really relevant? How much more is necessary? Makers would have us believe a lot more is needed, as would others who feel it would impact their work ... if for no other reason than it keeps them interested.

At this point in the evolution, I've gone from evangelist to skeptic. While I can imagine all sorts of innovations and new technologies, I wonder about their true value in advancing the art of photography in any truly meaningful manner.

Just a few musings on the subject.

-Marc
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
At this point in the evolution, I've gone from evangelist to skeptic. While I can imagine all sorts of innovations and new technologies, I wonder about their true value in advancing the art of photography in any truly meaningful manner.
Preach it, Brother Marc...

I often wonder what photography is anymore, so I've decided to just perceive it (personally) as a personal experience that i find enhances the quality of my life. In that view, all of the discussion above is moot... and the heated nature of it meaningless.

Tolerances, in a pragmatic sense, are a moving target that are incredibly dependent upon the intention of the tool's user. Sally Mann, in those terms, would find this whole discussion humorous... whereas an architectural shooter may not.

My $.02

(said as I move to a wooden tripod and a camera with no autofocus)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
To the main point -- I think the next major step for *MF* manufacturers will be developing a system that does not rely on any form of mechanical shutter. In this way, even if a mirror is still desired, we can get truly vibrationless mirror-up captures. Moreover, I think the need to eliminate vibrations was certainly evident with the move from 9u to 6.8u backs, was even more so with 6u backs, and now with 5.2u backs has become essential.

There are limits imposed by physics that we are approaching. The best tech lenses are very nearly diffraction limited at optimal apertures already. The 6u sensors to a certain degree and the 5.2u sensors to a greater degree already diffract off-axis light. Tolerances in bodies are now down to a point where thermal expansion is a real issue -- I have seen my infinity change by a few decimal points on my Arca helical between cold mornings and hot afternoons. Aluminum is notably bad here with a high thermal coefficient, so the next body may need to be machined out of something like tungsten. Of course tungsten is extremely heavy, so perhaps having alignment pillars of tungsten or even diamond (very low thermal coefficient) in the assembly will be needed.

But in the end, the reality is that precision is not and has never been a determinant of separating "good art" from "bad art," nor in my opinion should it ever be. I believe it falls to the artist to know and understand their tools so as to extract the most from them -- but only so far as it aids them in manifesting their vision into their final art product...

My humble .02,
 

Shashin

Well-known member
With every solution technology makes, it creates two problems.

As Jack stated, technology is not going to replace the skill of the operator. In many ways, photography is the same today as it was 150 years ago. The equipment has evolved, but it still is simply a collection of compromises. It is the photographer's skill of mitigating those limitations and foibles which is still important.

Fortunately, the perfect camera will come out tomorrow...
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Jack

Thank you for the idea with the thermal issue. I think this could be solved by sandwiching with materials of differing expansion factors. I would also see carbon fibre bodies (there was an US maker of carbon fibre view cameras if I remember right - do they still exist ?) .
I also address the fact that tolerances may change during usage, so I think the only valid focusing for the future is an electronic one, a very exact , high resolution, zoomable viewfinder supplied directly from the chip by a CMOS. By this it would not be of any importance how any focusing points are calibrated or not, the only importance would be 100% plane chip leveling.
Combine this with Image stabilisation (on the chip see sony) because otherwise the needed exposure times will not to be handled out of hand anymore.
I am also asking for a standard Highspeed Wlan interface, so that the camera storage and the actual camera can be separate boxes, by choice a portable one or directly to the harddisk of my studio machine.

So this kind of stuff could be develloped with some money, it´s todays status of technology.

Come on there must be more thoughts from more people!

regards

Stefan Steib HCam.de
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
... I would also see carbon fibre bodies (there was an US maker of carbon fibre view cameras if I remember right - do they still exist ?) .
Toyo had the 45CF camera which was polycarbonate/carbon fibre construction as a super light field 4x5 camera. I tried one of these a long time ago for a weekend and actually went with a Wista VX instead as I didn't like the rigidity of the Toyo at the time. Btw, I believe you can still buy this. However, time has moved on plus also construction techniques so there's no reason why you couldn't build a MF camera with the same materials better today.
 

Christopher

Active member
I have not read everything, but wanted to add a few points. As Jack said one main step is to get vibrations down. There really shouldn't be a need for a shutter anymore.

Another step is to CMOS sensors. Spare me the stuff, like CMOS are behind CCD sensors. It's just BS. If Phase or Hassi found somebody to develope/produce them a large CMOS we would have one in the current backs. However, they haven't and it isn't easy. Sony and Canon would probably love when A company asks them for a batch for thousand CMOS. So this is the hard part to find a way to create good CMOS sensors.

It is pretty clear that we need them. CCD are at their limits. I would say that pixel level of the IQ180 isn't better than the P65. More like worse. I really DON'T want to see a cramped 100 or 120MP CCD. Give me a 60MP CMOS which hast true live view and offers a slighlty better DR than a d3x and I will buy it.

Live view is the next step and for that we need CMOS.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
not only live view, but a simple way to field tether (wireless?) to something like an iphone or ipad. take advantage of the I-technology rather than try and duplicate it. doesn't have to be the full file sent over, a jpg view file would be fine

If all i had for viewing was akin to ye olde 4x5 ground glass, but with zoom...yippee!
 

asf

Member
Jack
I would also see carbon fibre bodies (there was an US maker of carbon fibre view cameras if I remember right - do they still exist ?) .

Do you mean the Carbon Infinity? That was from England in the mid 90's, didn't last very long and I don't think they sold or even made many of them.

Very cool camera though, I wanted one at the time.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I am happy with round 40 megapixels on a tech camera with movements and cant see the need for more than 3 or 4 lenses. I don't print larger than 2 feet by 3 feet and standard prints are 12 X18 inches. So the megapixel war was over for me a few years ago.

How a lens renders or draws is much more interesting and useful to me than the elephant gun backs now being made and sold to those who need them.

My holy grail is minimal post processing and very little deviation from a linear raw file.

Photography is always and will always be about the light - that is what makes something worth printing and hanging.

as for commercial photography - the faster the internet becomes and the faster computers become and the more convergence that happens between various forms of media - the more important moving images become.

the real innovation is happening with motion cameras - and RED is just one company doing it.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
@asf
yes you are right ! Thank you - I totally forgot, this could only be made by British Engineering ! It´s like my Benbo MK5 Tripod which I use since 25 years and it´s the best tripod ever made. I found images of the carbon infinity here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/edwinfechter/542600624/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/edwinfechter/542710975/lightbox/

again it´s interesting although even after 20 years I remember this, I did not buy one (It was really expensive back then), and I regret this. Because at the time it was (and probably still is!) really cool. here is a Google translated link to an article about it:

http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.galerie-photo.com%2Fcarbon-infinity.html&act=url

and here:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=1026

and in the last one it says what happened: it could not be sold because it was too good......

Well - probably if all the heartblood and ideas that have already disappeared from the photoindustry could be put back to existing products we could have a really thrilling outlook for new products. This is what I would wish for. Failure is not as bad as never having tried to do it.

Regards

Stefan Steib HCam.de
 
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