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The end of tolerances reached ?

jlm

Workshop Member
the problem as I see it is that development get distracted by the potential of digital, but not all of what digital can offer is really appropriate; priorities are skewed in favor of extreme digital ends, not necessarily photographic ends.

for example, it took Phase (and anyone else) many years to come up with a decent viewing screen, even though users have been screaming about it from the beginning.
The tech camera with movements, in the field, is limited due to the ability to view. Still can't come close to what you could do with 4x5 and gglass. Even tethered, you have to shoot and peep.
Focus mask seems great for this, and this is the "innovation" we need.
We still can't view on our I-pad, but that development has got to be easy, compared to making 80mpx
we still have a way to go to exceed what the lenses will do; I don't see that as a meaningful limitation until the viewing issue is optimized

If all we got was what first we had with 4x5, but just with a digital capture...
 

David K

Workshop Member
I think many of the technological "advances" that have been delivered are more in the nature of "feature creep" than what photographers really want.

From Wiki: The most common cause of feature creep is the desire to provide the consumer with a more useful or desirable product, in order to increase sales or distribution. However, once the product reaches the point at which it does everything that it is designed to do, the manufacturer is left with the choice of adding unneeded functions, sometimes at the cost of efficiency, or sticking with the old version, at the cost of a perceived lack of improvement."

To some extend I don't really blame the manufacturers since the relatively small market for digital MF makes it tough to justify the R&D expense needed to develop what many of us are asking for. I can't imagine what it cost to develop the Hy6 and just look at how few units were actually purchased. And I forget the dollar amounts that were mentioned in connection with development of the Leica S2... but I do remember they were HUGE. Unfortunately, IMHO, we are moving in the direction where improvements will come about through software... not hardware. It's already begun.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
the problem as I see it is that development get distracted by the potential of digital, but not all of what digital can offer is really appropriate; priorities are skewed in favor of extreme digital ends, not necessarily photographic ends.
The high-end of the market definitely purposefully emphasizes quality over ease-of-use. Most of our users appreciate that emphasis. It's the easiest way of describing the difference between the high-end and the middle-end (canon/nikon/sony etc).

for example, it took Phase (and anyone else) many years to come up with a decent viewing screen, even though users have been screaming about it from the beginning.
dSLRs come out every 2-3 years. New digital back platforms (not just a new model of the same platform) come out every 6-7 years. The P+ series from Phase had the same general quality LCD as a 1Ds III (though not nearly as good a zoom/navigation interface) which was shipping in volume in early 2008. That meant they were behind around 2-3 years when the IQ launched. It was a painful 2-3 years, but don't make it sound like they were a decade behind or something. Now they are ahead by 1-2 years with the IQ screen.

The tech camera with movements, in the field, is limited due to the ability to view. Still can't come close to what you could do with 4x5 and gglass. Even tethered, you have to shoot and peep. Focus mask seems great for this, and this is the "innovation" we need.
Focus mask for tilt/swing is a revolution in the speed/accuracy with which you can tilt/swing using Focus Mask. Once you've established your proper focus distance you can see the results of a tilt in near real time with MORE speed and similar accuracy a GG and a good loupe.

Actually I think it could be fun to have a few races :). You with a 4x5 and a loupe and me with an Arca and an IQ180 :).

We still can't view on our I-pad, but that development has got to be easy, compared to making 80mpx. we still have a way to go to exceed what the lenses will do; I don't see that as a meaningful limitation until the viewing issue is optimized
Here again the very long usable life of a digital back is a problem here. Anytime you rely on a 3rd party product (as Leaf did with the iPaq system on their Valeo series) you become outdated VERY quickly. The Phase One H25 and Valeo 22 (similar generationally) are still GREAT systems (within their areas of intended use) which are in relatively common use 8 years after they were introduced. They were released in 2003 which means they were being developed when OS9 was the only option on a Mac. Just imagine if a critical feature relied on using a Mac with OS9!

Similarly I honestly expect that in 8 years an IQ180 will still be considered a GREAT camera system and by then we'll be on the equivalent of an iPad 10. If a critical feature relied on finding an iPad 1/2 it would significantly defeat the lifetime of usability of the IQ.

Now clearly remote review on an iPad/iPhone/Android would be incredibly sexy and very very useful. You can see Phase One recognizing that with what I'd argue is by far the best iPad app for viewing/reviewing/evaluation of a shoot available from anyone - Capture Pilot. But the key is to make sure your technology depends more on you and less on a 3rd party by using open-source/standards and by controlling as much of the technology chain as you can without having to reinvent the wheel. So in order to have a wireless review system on an IQ (or successor) or Aptus-II (or successor) it would have to be clear it was a solution that could last many years into the future.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
Unfortunately, IMHO, we are moving in the direction where improvements will come about through software... not hardware. It's already begun.
I do not think this is true! Improvements will not only come through SW, it will be always a combination of HW and SW. Just think about computers, laptops, netbooks, iPad etc, they all improve through both HW and SW.

Now do we always need this? For sure not, but it makes our lives easier, at least sometimes, or shall we say it makes our lives different? If what comes out is then better I would really argue!

But WRT photographic tools there is no difference here. So we will always see new HW - be it sensors, processors, micro mechanics etc, which in most cases require faster processors and also new and faster SW. Camera manufacturers are far away from the ideal camera, just think about AF and AF speed, sensitivity and accuracy. The ideal AF would be one which covers at least an area as in the Nikon D3X (for a FF camera - larger for a MF camera) which offers TF as in the H4D and could be set back to the simplicity of the AF in a S2 - just as an example. But we are not there and what we see coming as the next great revolutions for AF is actually something which makes me cry :angry:

I think that one has to set these limits for himself individually and then stick to this. Maybe the way of Leica with their S2 and M9 and according functionality is right for a big percentage of photographers, at least the ones who grew up with very basic but efficient features in cameras such as the good old R line from Leica. Do I need more? Probably not because more distracts me too much from my actual work.

But in our digital world we will always have to live with a combination of improvements resulting from HW and SW!
 

Christopher

Active member
I agree with most Doug, but when I think back it would never come to my mind to say, that the P45+ / P65+ screen was anywhere near my 1DsMK3 screen. NEVER. The one was great to work with even though it wasn't a 5dmk2 screen. The other a disaster. This was by far the biggest disappointment on the P65.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
doug:
all i would have to do is require tilt and swing, same shot, he, he. and if I was using a Sinar P, no contest, best system ever.




i think there are now some standards for interfacing, data moving and storage, etc...I hope so, and that they will last for while.

I doubt I can get anything to read an old 8" floppy disc; out of the 8-10 PC's in my shop, I think only one or two even have drives for 3-1/2" floppies and nothing can read a 5-1/4". USB on most everything, nothing still uses a parallel port though,
 

Stefan Steib

Active member

Stefan Steib

Active member
Now as if Nick Devlin over at luminouslandscape had read this, maybe he has,maybe not, it does not matter I just say take a look and "AMEN" !

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/five_technologies_we_want_but_wont_get.shtml

the discussion on the forum is lively and as well interesting:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=56999.0

Greetings from Munich

Stefan

PS.: And thanks to the admins here in this forum who have let me go all the way in this thread even if some were irritated, same happens in Lula Forum calling Nick a troll. It´s maybe because the ideas are so immanent to people working with this, you need to get this out of your soul !
 

Mike M

New member
BTW I also have some theory to share.
There is the definiton of systemic noise. It says roughly that a compensation of a fault cannot be done with another faulty (imperfect) value. Instead it will add up and multiply the fault - thus systemic noise.
Now trying to reach perfection on mechanical tolerances is impossible.
The system is by itself faulty (see also Rogers article) so the idea of getting better and better tolerances to eliminate the variation is by itself contraproductive. Instead the best way to eliminate noise is to simplify the system and reduce available tolerance causing steps or complications.
In case of the camera this means reduce it to the bare minimum and expect the outputof a focus calibration to be faulty anyway. But if you can directly control the fault (CMOS with electronic viewfinder and onchip autofocus and visual control) the flaws become meaningless.

Regards

Stefan Steib HCam.de
Hi Stefan - Thanks for posting about "systemic noise" because now I can better understand what is meant by the "the end of tolerances reached." The thread title appears to be an aphorism referring to what is known in some media theory as a break boundary.

My understanding is that the types of methods deployed against systemic noise are dependent upon the nature of the mediums involved. Mechanical and digital (electrical) mediums require two distinctly different approaches. Hybrid mediums need a combination of both and the tension created by the mixture leads to transformations and reversals of form. The moment that a medium hits a point where it can only evolve into a new form or revert back to a previous state is a break boundary.

The best way to eliminate noise in a mechanical medium is to simplify and this is what photographers refer to as the purist approach. Mechanization is a linear process with a clear beginning and end. Purists eliminate steps within the sequence that are not necessary for achieving the final desired photographic outcome. They carefully make certain that every component has a clearly defined role and then tighten the tolerances as much as possible. It's important to remember that the purist approach in photography always begins with the user and ends with a still photograph. The photographer is never divorced from the process and each step of the sequence is completely derived from the applied technique of the user.

Digital mediums also eliminate noise by simplification, but they do it by converging steps in the sequence as opposed to removing them. The method of convergence is known to photographers as integration and it differs from mechanical purism by the fact that the entire imaging process works towards becoming simultaneous rather than linear. This means that the user is no longer the starting point and a still photograph is not the end. In fact, the photographer is just another tolerance to reduce and the applied technique of the user turns into a variable to overcome. It's important to understand that digital's nature is to merge all digital mediums together into a single de-centralized and non-specialized form. Integration does not stop at the boundaries of the traditional still photographic medium and can continue undeterred until it combines with all other digital mediums (cellular phones, personal computers, internet browsers, email, video, GPS, digital audio etc.)

At the time of introduction, new mediums occupy roles that were originally filled by previously existing mediums and this arrangement can fool some into thinking that a progression is taking place. In photography, sensors replaced film to create a hybrid between mechanical and digital mediums. Many purists believed that the sensor was simply performing the task of a capture device and this led them to percieve each advance in megapixel resolution as a development similar to an increase in film format size. They took for granted that digital would limit itself to the traditional role of film and might be satisfied to remain a single specialized step in an already established process.

Digital's nature is not to assume roles and follow sequences. On the contrary, it's nature is to demolish roles and destroy sequences. The moment that sensors replaced film was also the instant that post-processing supplanted the user from the starting point of the photographic process. It also paved the way for the future addition of live view & video that are now displacing the still photograph from the end point of the process. Post-processing itself could eventually be reduced to just "processing" since there can be no "post" or "pre" once true simultaneity is achieved.

Many hybrid mediums can only exist in a perpetual state of civil war. The good news is that conflict provides an opportunity to better understand their true nature and use knowledge of causes to make more informed decisions. I think that your (Stefan) original premise is correct and that we are now entering a period in time where the differences between mechanical purism and digital integration are so apparent that they're impossible to ignore. Transformations and reversals of form are inevitable to occur. Digital photography could split into an entirely separate medium from traditional still photography and evolve into digital imaging. There is already precedent for a change like that take place because something similar happened over a century ago when the motion picture medium (cinema) separated from still photography. It's also possible that an extreme reversal of form could transpire that would lead many photographers to quit digital altogether and return to film.

I think that most people are already intuitively aware of the differences between mechanical purism and digital integration so none of what was just posted should be new information. But the past decade has presented so many seemingly rapid changes that most of us can't help but to feel a bit disoriented. Now might be a good time to reflect on recent experience and use it to clearly identify the unique qualities of mediums in order to fully grasp the root causes of current and potential future conflicts.

Mike - Thanks for that last one

>>>The photographer turned content producer actually becomes his own client and takes the final step towards total convergence between production and consumption.>>>

This is exactly what I´m doing now. And actually if you ask me when did I feel better than today- I´d say never before! I control the content that I want to photograph. I design my own website, I do my own flyers and CI.I had learned this for customers and now it falls into place for what I do for myself and our company now.
My main tool is the internet, I work internationally, my clients come from all over the planet. This is definitely a complete change of what I did before as a Studio Photographer working for large corporate customers and Advertising agencies.
That's a great example of what I meant by living a life of "realized art".... I hope that things continue to go well :)

"Where the whole man is involved there is no work. Work begins with the division of labor."
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Mike

I think the process of digitalisation also shifts the target markets. Whereas in days of horsecarriages there was a whole infrastructure for horses who were essential for the transport system - the infrastructure has disappeared or shrunk to hobbyists use, we now get to a point where companies like Koday slowly dissolve , disappear (Agfa) or shift their focus (Fuji).
The classic Photoindustry may also be close to a paradigm change as mobile smartphones with 10 Mpix or more will take over the classic role of 70-80 % of volume photography. The viewing medium "print" is also on the merge to disappear or shrink to a shadow of what it was in the 80´s and 90´s as the mobile tablet and Smartphone viewing devices do not need these high resolutions, classic computers may also be integrated into our TV sets, as soon as there are 500 $ 30"+ Full HD screens with integrated Webbrowsers and Highspeed internet access and graphic cards you can as well run all your Apps from the cloud.

There will be some applications where the large resolutions will stay valid, but for the consumer this will have no influence (it even does not as of today).

The interesting question to be answered is: does the system of creating local highresolution data have future - or wouldn´t it have been more helpful to have an LTE communication module inside of a back instead of a USB3 cable connection ? And for local usage why not use 802.11n or even switch to 1 Gigabit Wlan (first drafts IEEE 802.11ad already out). For shutter: why not use NO Shutter - CMos with Lifeview - even with less resolution - a large pixelpitch with 7-8 Micron with 40-60 Mpix max but better dynamic range would certainly be ok and delivering data within the Nyquist resolution of most lenses. And finally: would multishot for significantly higher resolutions be the better concept ? (I´d say 4 shot - more than this wil probably run into the same optical problems as single shot systems over 100 MPix)
Electronic Finders could be separated from the device, be remote, modular and upgradeable.
Nearly all of this is now happening in the Pro Video industry - I can only repeat, this is where the competition for Phase and Hasselblad will come from - Red has already offered such a concept, Arri may come next, the japanese Pro Makers are also capable to cannibalize their pure Photo departments. If the 5D MK2 had such an Impact on the Video market, what do you think will happen if an Arri Alexa quality device would reach 4K plus resolutions(with 100 images a second !) with an IQ180 comparable price ?

I think this optical and mechanical discussion is only a starting point to a concept change. If this will not happen, the reality will take it´s own pace and level the market.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
As an impression as of how I see a workflow also for photography - take a look here:

http://vimeo.com/27818488

then something not so totally serious:

http://vimeo.com/20040143

and then the wet dream - the Alexa made in Munich by Arri:

http://vimeo.com/26629283

and this is the info source -14 steps DR , no shutter, modular, electronic viewfinder with all the film gimmicks you can imagine- and plenty of usage footage:

http://vimeo.com/10819793

and the film they made

http://vimeo.com/10831418

and now the Alexa is 50000 € sure you need plenty of peripherals, sure this is a film camera, but think what could be with a smaller body, a larger chip and all these input output interfaces, large monitor/viewfinder - yummy !!!

Regards
Stefan

could not resist to put up 2 more links:
http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-one
http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-two
very cool - very interesting.
 
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Mike M

New member
@Stefan, your last two posts definitely have a lot of great observations and questions. I checked all of the links ...but didn't have enough time to watch all of the last two.

I've come to the conclusion that the best way to sort through an information overload is to identify patterns which is similar to how search engines (like Google) operate. Knowledge of differences between mechanical and digital (electrical) processes is how I try to identify their patterns in order to make sense of the changes that are taking place or will take place in photography.

It's also better to use patterns to predict trends rather than events. For example, if we know that digital is to work towards integration then this allows us to predict that the current steps of saving a file to a memory card, transferring it to a hardrive, and uploading it to the internet will converge. The trend is toward simultaneity, but we can't necessarily predict the specific events or exact means that will lead to the final outcome.

I also think that the consumer is a major factor to consider and is where culture really enters into the equation. Digital is de-centralizing and democatizing which is a nice way of saying that the mob is in command. In other words, digital's mission is to include the common person and NOT the expert. Master craftsman simply cannot exist in an environment where all opinion is equally valid and barriers to entry are broken down. I can't stress just how important the cultural factor is going to be when it comes to future developments involving digital photographic gear. The man-on-the-street/Joe-six-pack is ultimately going to determine what constitutes "image quality." Professional photographers will increasingly discover that their small voices are easily shouted down by the roar of the crowd. Eventually, I think that most people working in digital will be forced to accept whatever watered-down standards are adopted by the mainstream public.
 
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Stefan Steib

Active member
Mike I see the pattern- but I refuse to give in.
And I disagree about the importance of outstanding craftsmanship.
I know that the classic photographer- the one who runs through apprenticeship, a several year experience build up and then getting a masters degree is in a difficult situation now. But I have recently been guest at the Gutenberg school in Stuttgart where plenty of young and well educated future photographers were listening to my HCam-Workshop we held there. During the workshop I had a chance to listen to the questions of these young people and I can tell you - the future is here, these young guys/girls will do it right and we should not think that if us old silverhalogenid polluted photodinosaurs have doubts about the future of valid and valuable photography, these young people do even care. They have their own ideas and plenty of idealism, this is so refreshing, like a timemachine which makes me listen to myself 35 years ago.....;-)

and - I see the professionalism I grew up with now in the film production teams and the CGI guys, I wish I´d be 30 years younger I´d be wrenching my workstation(s) and render my own worlds, I think CGI is absolutely fascinating. This is also why I think that photography should take a deep look into this bordershift of Devices drifting between Photo and Video.
It´s a great chance, those who will understand will make the transition.
This world needs good content, who says that a photo may not be a film and a film not be a photo if needed.

I am very optimistic, art will have it´s place, if shere consumption will have been long gone a value and an idea can last forever.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Stefan

Your visions and knowledge about the photographic future are very interesting and yes , we will not stop the progress as changes in technique and workflow will come , if we want it or not . It has always been like that .
Without progress , we would not have an IQ180 back today , just as an example . We should not forget that .

I have put a package of 120 rollfilm in my deep freezer some years ago , to be able to show the grandchildren a film , if they should ask me , what is a film ?
Perhaps we should put an IQ180 into the deep freeze by tomorrow , to show the next generations grandchildren what a MFDB is (should we better say , was ? ) .

Future techniques and workflows might reveal , that our todays way to capture an image is somewhat very complicated and old fashioned .

But we have no other chance , we can only use the tools we have available today .
BTW , I recently shot a roll of film with a beautiful 60 year old HASSELBLAD . Great results .

I do not hate the progress nor am I afraid of new things and new things I will have to learn . But the speed of the progress has become so fast , that when you finally hold your desired new gear in your hands , it turns out to be "old" .

That happened to me in some way , that I "missed" the change from film to digital .
The amount of money I lost in the past ten years with electronic gear , computer , cameras , cell phones etc . is extremely big and I refuse to proceed like that . I refuse to get manipulated by the industry to always have the newest gear to be "in" .

Today , my gear is up to date , it might be old technique by tomorrow .
But I will then carry on shooting with that "old stuff" .
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
And while we discuss the future of possible camera concepts Sony has built it - Nex 7 for 1199 $:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/sony-unveils-nex-7-24-3-mp-sensor-oled-viewfinder-1199-price/

Looks like a small version of our HCam.(or does our HCam look like a large version of a nex ?).

much more technical data you´ll find here:

http://www.systemkamera-forum.de/blog/2011/08/sony-nex-7/ or use the google translate version
http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.systemkamera-forum.de%2Fblog%2F2011%2F08%2Fsony-nex-7%2F&act=url

Thanks Sony for proof of concept - the future is here (december 2011).

And I cannot resist adding this: The history of sony comes from a background of consumer orientation for innovative electronics.

regards
Stefan
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
And while we discuss the future of possible camera concepts Sony has built it - Nex 7 for 1199 $:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/sony-unveils-nex-7-24-3-mp-sensor-oled-viewfinder-1199-price/

Looks like a small version of our HCam.(or does our HCam look like a large version of a nex ?).

much more technical data you´ll find here:

http://www.systemkamera-forum.de/blog/2011/08/sony-nex-7/ or use the google translate version
http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.systemkamera-forum.de%2Fblog%2F2011%2F08%2Fsony-nex-7%2F&act=url

Thanks Sony for proof of concept - the future is here (december 2011).

And I cannot resist adding this: The history of sony comes from a background of consumer orientation for innovative electronics.

regards
Stefan
OK,
now you really have me unsure about what you mean.
It is just another evolutionary Sony.
and BTW way off topic on this thread

:OT:
-bob
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I think there is a difference between 'gadgets' and improved 'gadgets' - which I consider this camera you show above as an example of - and 'quality'. It is much much harder to improve on 'quality' than 'gadgets'.

I think that displaying photographs on the net -is a very different thing to displaying printed photographs. If photography = displaying images on the net - then I can assure you I would have NO interest in photography ( as an example)

I use a 65 inch flat screen monitor to display a continuous slideshow of images I have made at home - this is of interest to friends who visit- but what really gets their attention is the framed printed image(s) hanging on walls - print versus digital display? - there is NO comparison.

The digital world has allowed for what I call quality decline 'creepage' infecting pretty much every aspect of life commercial and private - and I think that there is a growing subculture of REJECTION going on.

My next motorbike will be either a Harley or a Victory - both based on engine designs which I can look after myself - my Ducati days are over.

Levi 501's have never been improved

Ray Bans have never been improved

Rolex Submariners are still the best watch a man can buy and wear.

The Mont Blanc giant has never been improved.

The Leica M camera has never been improved

The Hasselblad 500 series will never be replaced by a better design

The Alpa 12W will never be beaten as a pure design

digital evolution is one thing - quality is another....

( just for debate)

* PS Bob I missed your post *** I was typing.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Peter

for the sony I have opened a new thread on the sony forum here on GetDPI

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29629

more explanations about it there.

On the theme of this thread : It´s good that you are throwing in the aspect of perfect design and classic into the discussion.


From the point of view of someone that was happy at the time when these came out, implementing that your judgement parameters are valid for everyone you are right. The problem is Younger people or people with a different background maybe in Computers, internet, gaming or electronics may just be bored by your selection and enthusiasm for these items.

I also have a BMW Boxer 1989 built and classic retro fit look with 1040 cubic ccm, I also (sometimes) wear mechanical chronos (I collect a bit, my favourite is a 1972 Heuer Autavia Diver) and your list to me is understandable and valid.

But Peter - I am 54 years old and already an old fart (listening to 20 year olds ) - they do not even know the names of the brands that you mention here. As about 60-70 %(maybe more) of humans on this planet are under 30 I guess this makes your choice a pretty personal and elite one, whereas other elites (mentioned before) will be the Apple geeks (I also have some of this ) or the hiphop generation (already over 25 now!) or the realist party infotainment generation (the actual young 15-25 ones)may have total differing interests and choices.

I love my Suunto Core as much as my Heuer and I change them like other people change ties for the office.

Just to remember we are a pretty small group of people here in this special world of highend photography

greetings from Munich

Stefan
 
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