The end of tolerances reached ?

[JonMo]

I usually try to avoid conversations of this flavor, but really have things changed?

I've spent my entire photographic and artistic life ( yrs worth ) trying to both stand out and conform.

Lets not confuse the issues of art vs product. Art is its own market: an attempt to stand out and be recognized for unique vision where the image itself is the product for consumption. As an artist whether with paint, charcoal, sculpture or photograph; it is creativity unleashed to produce something memorable on its own merit. To be viewed and appreciated for itself.

Then there is photography used for purpose. The work should be crafted beautifully but in the end has a use other than recognition of the image itself.
Some images for journalism are not perfectly crafted but are used to impart information within context of a situation. An AP image is pulled because the photographer lessened the impact a stray shadow made in the image and is punished by banning. Craftsmanship was secondary to the products purpose.

Ad photography while wonderful has the purpose of showing the product in a way to attract commerce.

Architectural photography while stunning is used to sell buildings and designs of others.

We have to stand out in these situations with a "style" to attract customers but in the end conform to our style as this becomes what is expected.

In this current world of "huge piles of manure" the better visions and craftsmanship will further stand out. instead of the "crap" analogy lets use a field of flowers.
In this field there are hundreds of purple flowers, they blend together in a sea of a single colour. Add a perfect purple flower to the others and it will disappear despite its perfection. We can stand up and cry "can't you see how much better this flower is?" and the only one who will see it are fellow flower aficionados and the rest just see purple.
It is our JOB to plant a yellow flower, and not just any yellow flower but one that will allow the rest to notice it, look closely, and finally understand the difference.

It is going to be difficult to stand out in our future as photographers. Anyone with the cash can purchase a camera so automatic that there is a ridiculous amount of images that are perfectly exposed, clean, sharp (enough) and most importantly; boring.

The end of tolerance if reached will be a blessing to those with vision. We play the role of using light, imagination, sheer will and personality. Those with the gift can take the new technologies to create what others never could. We stand out by using this vision.

And then we go to work. Not everyone is prepared to work. Work is taking something you enjoy, doing it everyday whether you feel like it or not. An understanding that there are no days off for this kind of work. Not if you are doing it for a living. All the wannabes fade away.

I admire those that persevere through and continue to love their craft while working at it.

Just my very long winded two bits.

 

[fotografz]

Hi Marc

compliment back - good people hanging around here.

Uh- where to start - the pile of crap maybe needs to be there - it is neccessary to taste the unpleasant to dig for the truffel.
Hasn´t this been the case always - just the media and frequency changed ? I remember a sentence about a bluessinger who cannot sing the blues if he does not feel the pain, so maybe the rejection of a commercialized asthetics maybe the birth of real art ? So NO ART without CRAP ?

The dadaists were destroying the logical context of the medium using senseless fractions to create art, I think this fits very well in this discussion......;-)))

The photographic medium is dissolving now into Film/Video/Imaging/CGI
, the fractions collide in the internet and leave many people helpless and flattened. The need to have some orientation on aesthetics is just normal,
social medium like Flickr is perfect to read the mind of "the temporary stream" from the socialised to the artsy the whole spectrum is there.
This is what I like most. It is the REAL MOMA - the whole noise is part of it, like a beethoven symphony with plenty of instruments. But you still can hear the melody-better the chaos makes the melody.

I think this is the really interesting part why I am looking at this, from Mobile phone images to videos, ads, repros and family/baby pictures.
Did you ever try to repeat a simple and well known word so often that it starts to become phonetic-loosing it´s meaning ? I try to do this with these images and then suddenly something amazing happens- there is a lot of really valuable story telling content in this, maybe not in the single picture but in the whole stream.........

;-)

regards
Stefan

Stefan, in the spirit of sharing I thought to pinpoint a few less obvious photographers that had/have the stuff of change and challenge IMO. There are hundreds if you have the patience to search ... even on the web they are hard to find sometimes ... and without knowing them, almost impossible to find

One is the French fashion photographer Sarah Moon. As young Art Director I was fascinated with her work ... which I would now see as a bit more cute or precious than I did then. But she evolved and evolved and I am still fascinated by her later vision and courage. Of interest, except for a few shots, she disavowed and rejected her own earlier work. Not everyone's cup of tea, but she did have an impact on a number of those who came after her.

Another is Duane Michals. Known to more photographers than Ms. Moon, but still an interesting photographer to me mostly because of his haunting sequential still photography. It had a great impact on me as I moved into working with motion work for TV commercials and films later in my career.

A third is a dear friend of mine that I think is an undiscovered talent just on the verge of breaking out of obscurity. Irakly Shanidze is a Soviet born Georgian with a wicked sense of humor and incredible level of intelligence and talent. Irakly is an example of being buried by today's tonnage of horse manure. IMO Irakly IS the pony.

There are more, but three is enough.

-Marc

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Marc

I knew Sarah Moon and Duane Michaels. Irakly Shanidze was new to me but he also has this certain something - you are right. You are more interested into People ? This is good and positive as well. I am more a guy of pure form, in the Bauhaus tradition, Man Ray, Moholy Nagy, Oscar Schlemmer, Umbo, Walter Wolf, and of course Irving Penn - the Master. Maybe a very german thing, but also valid on Japanese contemporary photography (ah you know Shinzo Maeda´s japanese garden images ? ***********).

If you ask me about my favourite Peopleographers today there´s Jim Rakete, did you see his last exhibition on the Photokina ? There is Herlinde Koelbl (she lives in Munich - you know her "Jewish Portraits"?) and again I would say - Flickr - there are thousands if not tens of thousands of extremly talented people from all over the planet.

Nobody knows them, they have followers on Flickr but this does not mean there is any success or commercial exhibition on their side. I alone have already found several hundred of these for my favourites - the list is endless.

some of them are here on the forum, others are totally integrated into their normal life and doing this only as a hobby (plenty of very talented women on Flickr, housewives, young girls from Japan, Sekretaries, Students......) . it is even more interesting if you watch their complete portfolios - do they post everything every day or do they select to maybe 20 images which they change regularly ? How do they represent their stream with some limited changes and do stand out as well ? What favourites do they chose, are they connected or lone riders, do they comment or just post.......

extremly interesting ! The whole thing is art - a conceptual huge loupe to todays photography and the world.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

 

[PeterA]

People learn from other people and you combine this with easier access to photographic tools and distribution ( the net) and you get what we are getting - an explosion of image making a super nova!

However - within this great cacophony - there are many many tribes and cultures and sub cultures.. there is more and more fragmentation going on - it is a very interesting time to be alive..

I think it is fantastic that the major media companies each year lose more and more audience and eye ball time - you see this expressed in fragmentation of design/fashion/music/ - in everything no one country or culture is going to be able to promote their particular cultural or artistic imperialism and stomp oer or control creativity and stamp or legitimise one form of creativity or art over another - I think we are witnessing the death off romantic mythology associated with false notions of 'great art'..

 

[Stefan Steib]

I think it is fantastic that the major media companies each year lose more and more audience and eye ball time - you see this expressed in fragmentation of design/fashion/music/ - in everything no one country or culture is going to be able to promote their particular cultural or artistic imperialism and stomp oer or control creativity and stamp or legitimise one form of creativity or art over another - I think we are witnessing the death off romantic mythology associated with false notions of 'great art'..

Peter this is exactly the point why the photographers business in the classic sense will become more and more difficult. The large publishing houses are struggling to adopt for the new media - with discussions and even suing Apple and vice versa - Apple is taking command of the platform and the iTunes store is certainly the largest publishing house of all times already. But Apple is not a publisher, the content is not their business, on the other hand they do censoring- in a very american way, sexuality, political and religious controversial stuff is filtered, there is no more space for this on this platform. This is certainly not by any bad intention it´s just the american way of easy going and not causing any turbulences that may be a hindrance for the marketing and sales numbers.

So yes, in this case this is dangerous, we need publishers who are controversial and the need to have access to media that get recognition.
Of course anybody can get a website up and running publishing the varioust conspiracy stuff, or worlds end theories and the most stupid thing possible, but this will not reach a "noiselevel" that reaches the normal citizen and in this case this is good.
But for culture, this may be lethal. Interesting contrary movement actually: crowd funding for Photography projects.

http://www.photoshelter.com/mkt/research/crowdfunding-your-photography-project

so in this case the users of the medium decide the content that they want to see. Very interesting and a true socialist postulation of art for the people, revealing the true structure of the world and the people . The question is only : what kind of projects will be funded ?
PC - non PC, controversial or mainstream ?
Do we really want to see an average art, conforming to the standard tastes and habits of our neighbours ?

So again I think the only way to get real artistic freedom is in the nonprofit, truely amateur spaces of Facebook and other platforms where no limitations exist for a worldwide distribution and immediate availability although covered with a basic noise of plentyness/flooding of content.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

 

[David K]

Interesting discussion guys...it has given me food for thought about a subject I don't generally ponder. A pleasant break from gear talk.

@Stefan...kudos on your command of the english language.

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi David

Thanks - and compliment back to you native english guys(and girls) on the internet, you tought me my english during the last 20 years of discussions.

The discussion in this thread is indeed a bit special as the gear we are using is only an expression of the market we are working in. There are already plenty of hobbyists using these DMFB´s but I am deducting the theory from the usage of the professional photographer who needs to finance the gear with his work. And indeed the gear represents a limit we are reaching here as well as this is corresponding to the media theory, sociological context and professional difficulties which seem to indicate that something is develloping into another direction.

The major amount of Pro work today is already done with 35mm DSLR´s.
These are getting into the 30-40 Mpix range now (very soon). with this format factor and technology they are reaching a border also which kept companies like Canon and Nikon from doing this faster/earlier.
The concept of a mirror for the finder comes to an end now, Sony launches an EVF with 1024 pix/2Mbyte res that should be close to eyes natural resolution limitation. The next generation of Pro bodies will certainly be without mirrors using only EVF´s. Then this means the classic format sizes will probably be wiped out, see Leica S2 chip. A 60/80/100 Mpix Canon/Nikon of 2014/15 could be a larger size than 35mm today - meaning they will get into MF territory. This should alarm Phase and Hasselblad , because as soon as these Gorillas step into their own business the fight for the market may look pretty much predefined.
This will also mean that the classic mechanical concept of viewcameras will be ended because neither Canon nor Nikon (and Sony a third player) will take care of this.
The MF makers do just have one chance: unite, make a valid and strong strategy whitepaper, like the Four Third/micro four third standard, see here:

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/fourthirds/whitepaper.html
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/whitepaper.html

and lauch an initiative to protect their future business. Otherwise I predict they will disappear. Not because the products are bad. No - because their market will be taken from the low end migrating into their customer structure plus the market which devellops into an adoption of the common tools around (which we have discussed here earlier in the thread).

The Alpas, Arcas, Cambos etc of this industry need to combine their efforts with this initiative and get electronic and modular , taking basic support for the needs of the construction of electronically adopted 21st century gear or they will also disappear.

The time frame for this all is pretty tight - the devellopment will be happening latest within the next 5 years, so the MF industry better gets going or it is too late for them.

Think about it, this is the only logical consequence of what we have discussed here in this thread.

regards
Stefan

 

[fotografz]

Hi David

Thanks - and compliment back to you native english guys(and girls) on the internet, you tought me my english during the last 20 years of discussions.

The discussion in this thread is indeed a bit special as the gear we are using is only an expression of the market we are working in. There are already plenty of hobbyists using these DMFB´s but I am deducting the theory from the usage of the professional photographer who needs to finance the gear with his work. And indeed the gear represents a limit we are reaching here as well as this is corresponding to the media theory, sociological context and professional difficulties which seem to indicate that something is develloping into another direction.

The major amount of Pro work today is already done with 35mm DSLR´s.
These are getting into the 30-40 Mpix range now (very soon). with this format factor and technology they are reaching a border also which kept companies like Canon and Nikon from doing this faster/earlier.
The concept of a mirror for the finder comes to an end now, Sony launches an EVF with 1024 pix/2Mbyte res that should be close to eyes natural resolution limitation. The next generation of Pro bodies will certainly be without mirrors using only EVF´s. Then this means the classic format sizes will probably be wiped out, see Leica S2 chip. A 60/80/100 Mpix Canon/Nikon of 2014/15 could be a larger size than 35mm today - meaning they will get into MF territory. This should alarm Phase and Hasselblad , because as soon as these Gorillas step into their own business the fight for the market may look pretty much predefined.
This will also mean that the classic mechanical concept of viewcameras will be ended because neither Canon nor Nikon (and Sony a third player) will take care of this.
The MF makers do just have one chance: unite, make a valid and strong strategy whitepaper, like the Four Third/micro four third standard, see here:

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/fourthirds/whitepaper.html
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/whitepaper.html

and lauch an initiative to protect their future business. Otherwise I predict they will disappear. Not because the products are bad. No - because their market will be taken from the low end migrating into their customer structure plus the market which devellops into an adoption of the common tools around (which we have discussed here earlier in the thread).

The Alpas, Arcas, Cambos etc of this industry need to combine their efforts with this initiative and get electronic and modular , taking basic support for the needs of the construction of electronically adopted 21st century gear or they will also disappear.

The time frame for this all is pretty tight - the devellopment will be happening latest within the next 5 years, so the MF industry better gets going or it is too late for them.

Think about it, this is the only logical consequence of what we have discussed here in this thread.

regards
Stefan

Like it or not, I think some of your predictions will come true Stefan.

The innovations are, and will continue to come from companies that use technology to bust the strangle hold that Canon and Nikon have had on the industry ... like newer player Sony, and Fuji. If you can't beat them DON"T join them : -)

If the giants don't pony up fairly soon, they are the ones that should be worried more than Hasselblad and Phase One. Also, it should be taken into consideration that the consumer point & shoot "cash cow" that funded these photographic giants is already evaporating, and will soon be history ... it is merely a generation or two of cell phones away. iPhone, Blackberry and Droid will be the most ubiquitously used cameras on Earth, if they aren't already. I've noted that migration at weddings where less and less P&S are in guests hands, and more and more they are using their smart phones.

I think technology has impacted the professional market ... but not necessarily in the manner you describe. In fact it's been underway for quite some time. It was the digitalization of virtually all communications that forced the demise of film, not photographic technology... which actually lagged for to long. Certain industries, like the multi-billion dollar wedding and portrait industry migrated to smaller format before digital was anywhere near capable enough ... because consumer demand changed literally over-night in favor of more spontaneous journalistic inspired approaches where content trumped IQ. So, it was natural that the switch over to digital would be to stuff like Digital Rebels and the like.

The commercial communications industry began the migration to more immediate web based approaches which required far less IQ than the previous dominate medias, and is now THE dominate media outside of perhaps TV ( which I think is also on its last legs as we know it now). Even specialty photography like car work melted away from an iceberg to an ice cube in the face of CGI. It wasn't the technology that did it, it was the logistics of shooting cars that weren't even in production yet nor the details yet finalized.

However, we also have to take into account a few factors that may mitigate all of this. Ways of viewing photographic results will not stand still and will impact the input devices. I had an interesting conversation with a player in the GPS industry yesterday, which is sinking fast due to GPS Apps for cell phones. The only way for them to survive is to exploit the weakness of the cell phone ... its size. In a few years it will be mandatory for all cars to have screens, and we all know that screen IQ is not standing still. This opens the door for ground level projections of the route you are taking (like Google street view) coupled with directional over-lays from your cell phone that's plugged into a dock. There could well be a camera in the rear AND front of every car in future.

Plus, as more of the masses become involved in making photos, a certain growing percentage will want more than others. Shelby Lewis here on GetDpi is a prime example of this. He found a way to alter his photographic experience and moved to an RZ with a digital back. Big change for him. The more that people become "aware" of the possibilities, the more of them that will want to step up their game. Yes, some if not most will be satisfied with the pixel packed 35mm DSLRs ... but that remains to be seen yet since it all sounds good on paper, but the end of digital tolerances may be just around the corner for them. IMO, the new Sony A77 images look pretty bad as of now, so it remains to be seen what is real and what is "in theory" better.

IMO, the market is, and will continue to grow, for MFD due to my above observation of "upward gravitational pull". Yes, a small market, but that has always been true. The constant harping about meg count as the measure will always fall on deaf ears in terms of those who know and use MFD for its larger real estate ... and their evangelism isn't in just words but instead images that prove the point to anyone with some sense of discrimination. While most will settle, a growing number will hanker for something better because the gross numbers of photographers is rising exponentially, and more cream will rise to the top. The number of photographers using MFD today would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. In a way, it separates the terms "Hobbyists" from "Enthusiasts". Enthusiasts drive this category even more than Professionals now, and that will continue to grow IMO.

-Marc

(The MFD reps are probably thinking to themselves ... "From your lips to God's ears, Marc") :ROTFL:

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I've noted that migration at weddings where less and less P&S are in guests hands, and more and more they are using their smart phones.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Marc

You are absolutely right about smartphones - and it´s not helpful if companies like Fuji release cameras with nominal 16Mpix which have IQ which is worse than my iPhone 4 (tried this and gave the Fuji 550EXR back because the lens was a catastrophy...). In the end this may be the same redundance effect - who needs a compact camera if he "wears" his smartphone 24 hours a day ?
Of course my guess is just that - a guess. Do Canon/Nikon/Sony move upward faster than Hasselblad and Phase can stabilize or better increase their sales numbers ?
It also must be taken into account that already today a significant number of Backs are sold to Hobbyists, and I guess these will mostly play with this gear, as soon as the new toys seem to be more sexy they will move on.
If the professional Photographer will stop using backs the "amateur"users will move on, because the appeal is losing it´s context then.

As said - interesting times coming up.

regards
Stefan

 

[erick.boileau]

and do you believe pixel race will save MF, I mean 160 , 200 mp ? many users want a MF camera for the big size sensor and for that 3D look, personally I'll never go to 60 80 mp , I dont need it and I dont want it
If Hasselblad or PhaseOne can do a FF camera with 40 mp and liveview on a modern body, with 50 to 400 ISO and 256 s exposure , I shall buy it at once

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Not with these smaller micron sensors will we see a 40mpx cam FF. Reason I had to go 160 not that I need 60 mpx but only way to get FF. Now I have it I like having it so i can sell it to my clients. BTW that's working too

 

[danlindberg]

If Hasselblad or PhaseOne can do a FF camera with 40 mp and liveview

I'm with you! This would be absolutely perfect for me as well.

 

[Stefan Steib]

>>>>>>and do you believe pixel race will save MF, I mean 160 , 200 mp ?>>>>>>>>>

Eric

definitely NOT ! We have discussed this during this thread, and this was also the starter for my headline "the end of tolerances reached" as there is a physical limit which is caused by diffraction, mechanical tolerances and the actual deficiencies of CCD´s. More like a systematic flaw because of the roots in analogue photography, which I dare to say it - must be cut completely.

A first step could be a larger, MF version of a Sony nex 7, yes 40-60 Mpix with a nice pricetag would be very good - why I think this shows throug the course of the discussion -see in this thread here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29629.

Regards
Stefan

 

[erick.boileau]

Not with these smaller micron sensors will we see a 40mpx cam FF. Reason I had to go 160 not that I need 60 mpx but only way to get FF. Now I have it I like having it so i can sell it to my clients. BTW that's working too

a P45 is not FF but 1.1 with 39mp, I sold mine one year ago , there is no needs for more pixels and the quality is perfect, but the system with Hasselblad H1 is from another age

the P25+ and Hasselblad H3D II 22 were perfect camera with crop 1.1 and 22 mp
there is no needs of more pixels for many MF users , MF is loosing that big part of the market including myself
If the Leica S3 has a live view and a TS lens I shall certainly go for it

 

[erick.boileau]

>>>>>>and do you believe pixel race will save MF, I mean 160 , 200 mp ?>>>>>>>>>

Eric

definitely NOT ! We have discussed this during this thread, and this was also the starter for my headline "the end of tolerances reached" as there is a physical limit which is caused by diffraction, mechanical tolerances and the actual deficiencies of CCD´s. More like a systematic flaw because of the roots in analogue photography, which I dare to say it - must be cut completely.

A first step could be a larger, MF version of a Sony nex 7, yes 40-60 Mpix with a nice pricetag would be very good - why I think this shows throug the course of the discussion -see in this thread here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29629.

Regards
Stefan

I agree totally because of diffraction but the subject was never the needs, there is generally no needs for more than 40 mp , A2 or A1 prints

I understand that someone can need more pixels but with MF one can change the back , and actually there is no choice

 

[erick.boileau]

I'm with you! This would be absolutely perfect for me as well.

or a FF back for Arca Swiss or Alpa with 40 mp and live view and without those horribles cables !! it will be a killer

 

[GrahamWelland]

or a FF back for Arca Swiss or Alpa with 40 mp and live view and without those horribles cables !! it will be a killer

:thumbs: I recently went with an IQ160 but to be honest it was for the usability and superior image review technology plus full frame convenience, not for the extra pixels. I'd rather have better DR and flexible ISO support along with ever better color rendering on a full frame platform that isn't diffraction limited, brutal on lens technology with color casts, banding, uncorrectable LCCs etc. A full frame platform with big fat pixels would be perfect (of course then you get sensitivity to moire so it's never a free lunch). Give me a 30-40mp digital back with the capabilities of my Nikon D3s - the most flexible camera I've ever owned.

With the relentless increase in resolution there is the option of downscaling the image. With the 80mp backs that means 20mp with extended ISO support - not too shabby and very useful if you need the flexibility vs just resolution. This was another reason for me to step up to a full frame platform that could offer 15mp of non AA filtered performance when I wanted something other than IS 50-200.

As regards the cables ... I do note that you almost never see a promotional picture of a technical camera system with the sync or sync/wake cables on them. It's just not 'pretty' I suppose. I don't have a problem with the single sync cable with my Leaf or Phase One in zero latency mode, but again therein lie compromises that not everyone will accept (limited ISO & fan whine on the Leaf, heat build up & battery consumption with the Phase One backs that support it).

It seems that we're still waiting for the next new product ...

 

[erick.boileau]

it will come I think

for Moiré it doesn't matter there is also moiré in the real life with our eyes
the cables are not very sexy but I can live with them

 

[jlm]

i think the facility and common availability of the cell phone camera has sort of dumbed down the general expectations and sensitivity to high quality as well. The HQ image has a different audience, and the gap between those audiences is growing. i see this as a good thing for both groups