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Restrictions to Photography

alan_w_george

New member
even though i was on a public road, they busted my chops and demanded that i delete the images whie they watched.
Next time, tell them you have the right to take photos from public property and you will not delete anything. Then ask them if you are free to go, if they say no, then you've probably got good cause for a false arrest action. Know your rights, don't let meat heads like these erode them. Giving them the false impression you deleted files just encourages them to harasse the next photog (me:).

Excuse the rant, but this kinda of sh#t pisses me off.
 

carstenw

Active member
Re: Technical Camera Images

I guess it pisses everyone off, but each time it happens you must consider if it is a worthwhile way to spend your time, and potentially go through a lot of hassle and unpleasantness. Sometimes it is not.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Re: Technical Camera Images

Research your rights as they apply to your own country. Print off a sheet listing all the relevant facts and carry it everywhere. If anyone tries to restrict your rights present the facts to them. If they persist then call the police.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
Re: Technical Camera Images

two were definitely meatheads, including the supervisor, one guy was nicer. The option they gave me was that they would bring in the local police. In my opinion, this was a bullet better dodged.
I am and was aware of my rights, but confronting the armed and ignorant at best is going to ruin your day. Next time I will have Graham's printout, and decide what to do then, but I doubt they would have backed down, claiming "homeland security" marine oil facility, 9/11, etc.
The baseline is that in the trenches, you are not going to be talking to an accurately informed security guard much less a lawyer, and their main concern is that they don't do something to piss off their supervisor and jeopardize their own situation; these guys are low level, not highly paid, are probably bored to death, embracing any diversion and it makes no difference to their day whether i get detained or not
 
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carstenw

Active member
Re: Technical Camera Images

John, would you be able to find these guys again? I wonder if it might be worth paying them a visit, bringing the sheet, and having a nice chat with them about who you are, what you are doing, what your rights are, and so on. Might avoid a future confrontation.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
Re: Technical Camera Images

might try that, there is more there to shoot, that is for sure. My guess I i will have to work upstream in their hierarchy
 

carstenw

Active member
Re: Technical Camera Images

The thing is that if they "catch" you again, and recognize you, you could be in for a long talk, possibly bringing in the police, who might not necessarily be any more clever or friendly. If you pay them a visit, drop off your business card and show them your portfolio, and then have a chat about your rights, documenting it properly, you could have some allies instead.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Re: Technical Camera Images

Unfortunately here in the UK it's not only the "meatheads" who haven't a clue, the police are also culpable. There have been many incidents of photographers having images deleted or being illegally detained.

Fortunately now there is quite a backlash. Photographers - and the general public - are better informed of their rights. Recently there have been cases where photographers have been awarded compensation by the courts. The police - and meatheads - are now under pressure to educate their own and react appropriately and sympathetically to photographers. One of the leading lights in the battle for photographer’s rights in the UK has been Amateur Photographer magazine.

It is key that we all make a stand when our rights are abused.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Re: Technical Camera Images

Next time, tell them you have the right to take photos from public property and you will not delete anything. Then ask them if you are free to go, if they say no, then you've probably got good cause for a false arrest action. Know your rights, don't let meat heads like these erode them. Giving them the false impression you deleted files just encourages them to harasse the next photog (me:).

Excuse the rant, but this kinda of sh#t pisses me off.
Given this image was taken in the NYC area, and that this is considered a "tank farm", i'm not surprised the photographer was stopped. Quite frankly, i'm glad he was. Better to be safe... Tank farms are not the usual tourist attraction, so unless you explained you're a professional photographer, I would expect this kind of security. Next time you should ask permission, and they'll probably give you a tour, think of the camera angles!
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Re: Technical Camera Images

Given this image was taken in the NYC area, and that this is considered a "tank farm", i'm not surprised the photographer was stopped. Quite frankly, i'm glad he was. Better to be safe... Tank farms are not the usual tourist attraction, so unless you explained you're a professional photographer, I would expect this kind of security. Next time you should ask permission, and they'll probably give you a tour, think of the camera angles!
You mean a place like this? Terrorists can get pictures off Google maps without tipping off any security. You can also peek into Bath Iron Works--a navy shipyard. The photographing terrorist is a myth--you only see them in movies. If I am on a public road, I have rights to photograph. If the site is secret, do not built in next to a public road with a chain link fence. Terrorist are going to be a little less conspicuous with an iPhone rather than MFD--and they can transmit the image immediately.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Re: Technical Camera Images

What this attitude amounts to is a criminalization of photography--the act of taking a picture is somehow a suspicious activity. And it has spilled over to normal places--it is an invasion of privacy, not a celebration or exploration of the diversity of life. We live in a funny world.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Re: Technical Camera Images

What this attitude amounts to is a criminalization of photography--the act of taking a picture is somehow a suspicious activity. And it has spilled over to normal places--it is an invasion of privacy, not a celebration or exploration of the diversity of life. We live in a funny world.
This tank farm is in the approach path for a major NYC airport. It is well guarded and highly sensitive. Personally, I find Googles street view quite an invasion of privacy because now we all know what's going on in your yard. Easy on the caffeine .
 
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Shashin

Well-known member
Re: Technical Camera Images

This tank farm is in the approach path for a major NYC airport. It is well guarded and highly sensitive. As far as no terrorists being photographers, years ago in Niagra Falls a group of terrorists were arrested and their plot was brought to light, in part to their habit of photographing sensitive areas. Personally, I find Googles street view quite an invasion of privacy because now we all know what's going on in your yard.
Well, it can't be that sensitive or well guarded if I can take a public road to see it. I can also see it on Google Maps--look at Guantanamo Bay on Google Maps; you can see quite a bit of detail except for the sensitive areas.

I don't know about the Niagra thing, so I can't comment. Read this:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the_war_on_phot.html

Google does not show what is going on in your backyard. It is an image taken at a random time on a random day. Except for your friends and family that have already seen your backyard, who else would know? It is so much easier to drive down your street and look at your backyard than rely on Google as what is happening there.

Peace friend, we just don't see this the same way.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Re: Technical Camera Images

I carry a high visibility vest with my gear for those occasions where I'd rather not get killed on the side of the road when I photograph. I wonder how the rentacops and law enforcement would react if you wore one with TERRORIST written across the back? Now there's an idea. :D
 

Terry

New member
Re: Technical Camera Images

two were definitely meatheads, including the supervisor, one guy was nicer. The option they gave me was that they would bring in the local police. In my opinion, this was a bullet better dodged.
I am and was aware of my rights, but confronting the armed and ignorant at best is going to ruin your day. Next time I will have Graham's printout, and decide what to do then, but I doubt they would have backed down, claiming "homeland security" marine oil facility, 9/11, etc.
The baseline is that in the trenches, you are not going to be talking to an accurately informed security guard much less a lawyer, and their main concern is that they don't do something to piss off their supervisor and jeopardize their own situation; these guys are low level, not highly paid, are probably bored to death, embracing any diversion and it makes no difference to their day whether i get detained or not
Considering a couple of years ago they did thwart an attack (in the planning stages) to blow up the tanks at JFK I can see why they would be suspicious. There aren't that many people out taking shots of big tanks. If you were really trying to do something evil you wouldn't be out in the open standing on a car roof but I can see both sides.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
If there is a serious threat then call the police. Making a potential terrorist delete pictures does nothing but encourage them to be more careful when they return and now you have allowed them to remain at large to return. It's just so senseless. If there is a serious suspicion then you call the police no questions asked. These half baked measures half applied by brainless security must have the real terrorists rolling around with laughter while they realise that they have won without having to actually fight the battle because the only ones who lose from these measures are the innocent public, not the dedicated terrorist.
 

photoSmart42

New member
Re: Technical Camera Images

Given this image was taken in the NYC area, and that this is considered a "tank farm", i'm not surprised the photographer was stopped. Quite frankly, i'm glad he was. Better to be safe... Tank farms are not the usual tourist attraction, so unless you explained you're a professional photographer, I would expect this kind of security. Next time you should ask permission, and they'll probably give you a tour, think of the camera angles!
Stopped, yes. Forced to delete photos? Definitely not! That's what's crossing the line. Who's to say what a photographer might find interesting? Something called presumption of innocence seems to have been lost somewhere along the way with this 'war on terror' business.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
There are two completely different issues here, that have been conflated:

What's the best way to fight terrorists, and

What rights do people have to take photographs in a public place.

Whatever people might think of the need to protect New Jersey's tank farms from terrorist attack, there are limits to what police, and especially private security people, have to interfere with a person's exercise of his or her rights. If the security people can decide what you can photograph in public, why not a patriotic, or paranoid, passerby?

Has the tank farm owner sought to remove its image from Google? Not very likely; Google isn't one guy standing on a truck.
 
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