Thanks Ben.
As far as commercial work is concerned, when I was just a puppy ad man, a grizzled old veteran gave me a great piece of advice ... "Always remember, they wrap fish with yesterday's ads."
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What's the point?
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
As far as commercial work is concerned, when I was just a puppy ad man, a grizzled old veteran gave me a great piece of advice ... "Always remember, they wrap fish with yesterday's ads."
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Not sure who wrote this if anybody did but It has all been done before just put a fresh wrapping around it. Obviously us commercial shooters do this to make a living but outside we still have the burning desire to create and this goes back to the drive comments which i agree. I think the real bottom line is this need to have fun or the desire to have fun. If this was not fun at the end of the day no matter what i am shooting than i would most likely do something that is. Again not sure who said it but the fact is if you hate your job than what is the point of wasting your time. I love my job wish it made me more money but the end of the day I am happy with it. Can't beat that with a stick even though the Porsche is the dream. LOL But when i go into the box hopefully the right comments will come from friends and family that I had a good life , in the end nothing else really matters.
Yeah Guy, there is also something to be said about how interesting Commercial work can be in terms of exposure to things you may have never seen first hand, or in meeting people from all walks of life you may never have had contact with.
Lars
Active member
Interesting point about massive proliferation of images - even now with the internet only at 15 years, give or take.
Can you imagine how things will be like in 20, 50 years from now? And more to the point, if sheer quantity of images available is two or three orders of magnitude higher than today, how do you as a photographer even get noticed above the "background noise" of trivial images? We've touched that subject in other threads, I think it will get more and more relevant over time.
Can you imagine how things will be like in 20, 50 years from now? And more to the point, if sheer quantity of images available is two or three orders of magnitude higher than today, how do you as a photographer even get noticed above the "background noise" of trivial images? We've touched that subject in other threads, I think it will get more and more relevant over time.
E
erichill
Guest
What is the point of Photography?
It is Magic!
The point is: That magic moment when undeniable history and art are brought to together by, yes the photographer, who somehow senses that magic moment and snaps it into place – an image that is immortal!
The Photographers reward is his focus; he learns to focus in on what ever is going on, or at least his feeling at the at the moment. He can make a snap judgment. When I have a camera in hand and am stalking a picture, the world looks entirely different, sometimes black and white, sometimes color but always symbolic.
Just like we can tell the difference between John Coltrane and Miles Davis we can recognize Elliott Erwitt from Bill Brant. Thus every photograph is a study in anthropology and psychology or between motivation and culture. It is Van Gogh the man that fascinates us, the cutting off of an ear, the fumbled and no doubt painful suicide, We have the paintings to remind us of that history. An artist always has a distinct signature, which is written in life.
It is Magic!
The point is: That magic moment when undeniable history and art are brought to together by, yes the photographer, who somehow senses that magic moment and snaps it into place – an image that is immortal!
The Photographers reward is his focus; he learns to focus in on what ever is going on, or at least his feeling at the at the moment. He can make a snap judgment. When I have a camera in hand and am stalking a picture, the world looks entirely different, sometimes black and white, sometimes color but always symbolic.
Just like we can tell the difference between John Coltrane and Miles Davis we can recognize Elliott Erwitt from Bill Brant. Thus every photograph is a study in anthropology and psychology or between motivation and culture. It is Van Gogh the man that fascinates us, the cutting off of an ear, the fumbled and no doubt painful suicide, We have the paintings to remind us of that history. An artist always has a distinct signature, which is written in life.
Terry
New member
Wow, I just got around to reading through this thread. How interesting and a topic I've thought a lot about. I shoot for me. Sometimes it is to document and make a postcard or to record an event What is the challenge for me is to see if I can do it a little differently, to put my own unique spin on it. I progressed the most in that regard when taking a class at ICP called roll a day. Being out every day for many weeks always shooting made me look more closely at my surroundings. This is good timing for this thread because I was thinking for 2009 that I made try and do a book for myself with one shot from every day of the year.
nostatic
New member
The best way to do this imho is to blog. One of my "discipline" items is that I write in my blog every single day. And often I post photos as well. As a result I have a journal of words and images with a chronology as well as some context.
I have the same goal for 2009 though I'm combining my images with words. While my blog has a very small subset of the images I've made, it does at least provide a starting point to go and look.
wrt the proliferation of images, forget the interwebs, just look at my hard drives.
Digital is dangerous...
simonclivehughes
Active member
I think as photographers we see the world differently than our other fellow travelers in life. Whether we do this for profit or for pleasure, each has its own reward and its own purpose and rationale. I grew up with a father who was not just a good photographer but a fine graphic artist. Although I could never unleash the graphic artist in me, I took to photography from the very start. I found it intensely satisfying to see the results coming to life in the B&W darkroom, and the endless combinations of processing and printing fascinated me to no end.
At close to 60 now, I still have a deep love for photography and what it does for my enjoyment of life. I never leave home without a camera (or two). As photographers I think we all hear the lament that "How can you enjoy this, you've always got a camera stuck to your face?", but when we present our captures later on, we hear "Oh, I didn't see that!". Clearly we not only see what others do, we see beyond. A graphic element that becomes a focal point in a tableau, a scene rendered by manipulation of aperture or shutter becomes an impressionistic alternative reality...
Part of the reason and enjoyment of photography for me is exactly that... the ability to see beyond the ordinary and hopefully glean an image that suggests a recreation of the scene that's even more poignant or evocative than what others experienced. That's what keeps me going, keeps me challenged and keeps me motivated.
Cheers and Season's Greetings,
At close to 60 now, I still have a deep love for photography and what it does for my enjoyment of life. I never leave home without a camera (or two). As photographers I think we all hear the lament that "How can you enjoy this, you've always got a camera stuck to your face?", but when we present our captures later on, we hear "Oh, I didn't see that!". Clearly we not only see what others do, we see beyond. A graphic element that becomes a focal point in a tableau, a scene rendered by manipulation of aperture or shutter becomes an impressionistic alternative reality...
Part of the reason and enjoyment of photography for me is exactly that... the ability to see beyond the ordinary and hopefully glean an image that suggests a recreation of the scene that's even more poignant or evocative than what others experienced. That's what keeps me going, keeps me challenged and keeps me motivated.
Cheers and Season's Greetings,
Terry
New member
Sorry for all the typos....2009 resolution....post from computer not iPhone.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: Does me no good at all either way. LOL
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well said
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I do a lot of right clicking , wearing the mouse out. LOL
PeterA
Well-known member
Firstly - photography for me is primarilly a personal journal of family life. I use the excuses of an interest in 'street' and more recently 'still life' in order to stay on top of fast twitch 'see shoot' as well as contemplative 'no excuses' photography. I guess this is about recording things.
Secondly - I get an enormous amount of pleasure from looking at other people's work - irrepsective of genre. Some of the landscapes posted here for example take my breath away and yet I have little personal interest in landscape work. I guess this is about being open to other people's experiences.
Thirdly, I love having a camera in my hand.It gives me comfort and in a srange magical way - illicits a deeper seeing and somehow triggers a greater appreciation of the beauty in all things. I guess the camera lens is a kind of totem for me.
Secondly - I get an enormous amount of pleasure from looking at other people's work - irrepsective of genre. Some of the landscapes posted here for example take my breath away and yet I have little personal interest in landscape work. I guess this is about being open to other people's experiences.
Thirdly, I love having a camera in my hand.It gives me comfort and in a srange magical way - illicits a deeper seeing and somehow triggers a greater appreciation of the beauty in all things. I guess the camera lens is a kind of totem for me.
jonoslack
Active member
Re: What's the point? - and what to do about it.
Great post Marc, I'm sorry to be so late to the party, but I've been on holiday, and although I've followed the thread, I didn't feel that I could easily reply on my iphone!
What's the Point
This is something I've been very much considering (What's the Point) in the last couple of years, for two principle reasons:
Point 1.
2 or 3 years ago I got to the point where I felt I could go full time professional, I was getting a reasonable amount of well paid work without really trying that hard, and the crunch point arrived.
I decided not to for several reasons, but principally it was because I had a client base in my existing business who would not be happy, and because I wasn't convinced that my commercial photographic skills would produce better work than my software systems skills (and we are all struggling for excellence aren't we).
Point 2.
My father died 18 months ago - he was an excellent and prolific 'gentleman photographer' - there was a lot of candid portraits of artists which have gone to the Tate in Cornwall, and other archives - great.
In addition there were boxes and boxes of slides, albums full of photographs, a wealth of material, much of it wonderful, mostly reasonably well catalogued and properly stored. . . .
After much discussions, my sisters and I threw it all away.
We realised that it would be transferred from one cupboard to another, until at some time in the future someone else would make the same decision.
Types of non commercial picture
So, after my preamble, let me get to my point. Leaving out commercial photography (which, for my point we could describe as pictures taken for someone else's purpose) I think there are 3 reasons people take pictures:
1. The Process
i.e. pictures taken for the sake of taking them - this might be comparison of one camera to another, experimentation, or just to play with our new toys. This site is full of such shots, it's a perfectly valid reason to own a camera, and it makes a fine (if expensive) hobby.
2. Recollection
Pictures taken to remember an event, a person, a scene or holiday. Nothing else needs to be said - although if they also communicate then my points below are probably relevant.
3. Communication.
Pictures taken to communicate to others.
Of course, pictures can encompass all three of the above, but it seems to me that your sample shot is about Communication, and this is where the 'What's the Point' problem lies.
The Problem
The first part of the problem is that if you take 5,000 shots a month, or even 5000 shots a year, nobody but you is going to look at any of them (not even you probably). Which is why the photographs my father took are largely languishing underground.
The second part of the problem is that you have to make them available for people to see. Of course, the internet makes this immensely easier (I was absolutely gobsmacked when my son pointed how many page hits my website had last year)
The third part of the problem is how to encourage people to look for long enough for the image to communicate anything more than a pretty scene or composition.
What to do about it.
Well, the beauty of digital is that you can take as many shots as you like, I think this is wonderful (sometimes I take 5,000 in a month). But . . . .
The answer is to be ruthless and disciplined, and to present a coherent approach.
Be Ruthless
Most painters would be overjoyed if they could produce 50 decent works a year . . . . and most viewers don't want to look at any more.
If they aren't really good, get rid of them. I try to have 3 distinct culls of my work, once after shooting, once about a month later, and again at the end of the year. Each time as many as 90% will go.
Don't keep duplicates - if you're anything like me, when you see something good, you'll take 20 shots 'to get it right'. Fine - but delete 19 of them, and if you can't tell which to delete, then it doesn't matter which of them you decide to keep!
There is no point in keeping gigabytes of 'nearly made its' - you'll never look at them again, and it's even less likely that anyone else will.
Be Disciplined
File / Archive / key word them rigorously. Make the very best of them you can in post processing. If you have 5,000 shots a month it's a huge and boring task. If you have 50 good shots it's a real pleasure!
Be Coherent
If you want others to look at your photographs for more than a momentary 'Oooh - you must have a good camera' then you need to be coherent. I don't mean obvious, I mean coherent. Photographs need to fall into understandable categories, be it landscape, black and white amphibians or street life in the Seychelles.
If you want to be 'known' - then you better have as few categories as possible. Think of a photographer you know and revere, 9 out of 10 they have one style, one direction.
Oops! I seem to have gone on a bit! :bugeyes:If you got this far, then I really hope it was worth it
Oh Yes - I have thoughts!
Great post Marc, I'm sorry to be so late to the party, but I've been on holiday, and although I've followed the thread, I didn't feel that I could easily reply on my iphone!
What's the Point
This is something I've been very much considering (What's the Point) in the last couple of years, for two principle reasons:
Point 1.
2 or 3 years ago I got to the point where I felt I could go full time professional, I was getting a reasonable amount of well paid work without really trying that hard, and the crunch point arrived.
I decided not to for several reasons, but principally it was because I had a client base in my existing business who would not be happy, and because I wasn't convinced that my commercial photographic skills would produce better work than my software systems skills (and we are all struggling for excellence aren't we).
Point 2.
My father died 18 months ago - he was an excellent and prolific 'gentleman photographer' - there was a lot of candid portraits of artists which have gone to the Tate in Cornwall, and other archives - great.
In addition there were boxes and boxes of slides, albums full of photographs, a wealth of material, much of it wonderful, mostly reasonably well catalogued and properly stored. . . .
After much discussions, my sisters and I threw it all away.
We realised that it would be transferred from one cupboard to another, until at some time in the future someone else would make the same decision.
Types of non commercial picture
So, after my preamble, let me get to my point. Leaving out commercial photography (which, for my point we could describe as pictures taken for someone else's purpose) I think there are 3 reasons people take pictures:
1. The Process
i.e. pictures taken for the sake of taking them - this might be comparison of one camera to another, experimentation, or just to play with our new toys. This site is full of such shots, it's a perfectly valid reason to own a camera, and it makes a fine (if expensive) hobby.
2. Recollection
Pictures taken to remember an event, a person, a scene or holiday. Nothing else needs to be said - although if they also communicate then my points below are probably relevant.
3. Communication.
Pictures taken to communicate to others.
Of course, pictures can encompass all three of the above, but it seems to me that your sample shot is about Communication, and this is where the 'What's the Point' problem lies.
The Problem
This also haunts me . . . . .
The first part of the problem is that if you take 5,000 shots a month, or even 5000 shots a year, nobody but you is going to look at any of them (not even you probably). Which is why the photographs my father took are largely languishing underground.
The second part of the problem is that you have to make them available for people to see. Of course, the internet makes this immensely easier (I was absolutely gobsmacked when my son pointed how many page hits my website had last year)
The third part of the problem is how to encourage people to look for long enough for the image to communicate anything more than a pretty scene or composition.
So, I'm going to take it one step further -
What to do about it.
Well, the beauty of digital is that you can take as many shots as you like, I think this is wonderful (sometimes I take 5,000 in a month). But . . . .
The answer is to be ruthless and disciplined, and to present a coherent approach.
Be Ruthless
Most painters would be overjoyed if they could produce 50 decent works a year . . . . and most viewers don't want to look at any more.
If they aren't really good, get rid of them. I try to have 3 distinct culls of my work, once after shooting, once about a month later, and again at the end of the year. Each time as many as 90% will go.
Don't keep duplicates - if you're anything like me, when you see something good, you'll take 20 shots 'to get it right'. Fine - but delete 19 of them, and if you can't tell which to delete, then it doesn't matter which of them you decide to keep!
There is no point in keeping gigabytes of 'nearly made its' - you'll never look at them again, and it's even less likely that anyone else will.
Be Disciplined
File / Archive / key word them rigorously. Make the very best of them you can in post processing. If you have 5,000 shots a month it's a huge and boring task. If you have 50 good shots it's a real pleasure!
Be Coherent
If you want others to look at your photographs for more than a momentary 'Oooh - you must have a good camera' then you need to be coherent. I don't mean obvious, I mean coherent. Photographs need to fall into understandable categories, be it landscape, black and white amphibians or street life in the Seychelles.
If you want to be 'known' - then you better have as few categories as possible. Think of a photographer you know and revere, 9 out of 10 they have one style, one direction.
Oops! I seem to have gone on a bit! :bugeyes:If you got this far, then I really hope it was worth it
davemillier
Member
Firstly, why I do it:
1. The chance to spend some serious alone time.
For me, there is nothing quite like 2 or 3 hours spent in the countryside without any other people. The camera provides the excuse/reason/activity that makes this work.
I find it a lot easier to do photography without the distraction of companions (somehow allow one to enter the right focused state of mind - intense, yet relaxed). I also find it difficult to do photography in the presence of strangers - I find it inhbitory, like I was sneaking around nefariously or something akin.
The downsides of this are that I have no (physical!) photographically minded friends for those occasions when I do want to share and I can't bear the idea of joining a club. And sadly, these days the opportunities for a dedicated photo trip are almost zero because of family committments. Even next summer's planned Iceland trip will be mainly a familly holiday.
2. The thrill of looking at and making photos that are spot on to my taste.
Having looked at thousands of photos I've worked out what I like and what I want to create (doing it is another matter) - and much like my music taste, I have gradually eliminated what I don't like to the point I like nothing... fortunately not quite that extreme!
I now have a pretty good idea of what I enjoy looking at and making and for me this is a big step forward: the difficulty with photography was never thinking of things to photograph and styles to adopt; rather it was always what not to waste time with.
On the wider questions raised by others; I'm especially troubled by the sheer volume of imagery around. To me, it does dilute the impact of photography.
Wading through pbase or that big critique site can be depressing. Even if every posted photo was to a high standard (and a lot are), one still becomes quickly overwhelmed. I feel the reason is that after a while one only wants to see that 1 in 10,000 shot which absolutely hits the mark and looking at the near and not so near misses grinds down the artistic spirit...
Everyone is different, but Jono's 5000 shots a month make the blood blanch from my face.
I've just come back from 4 days in the beautiful city of Prague. Beautiful, but I would rather look at 10 pictures than 10,000. I shot 350 pictures in the City and thought it all a bit intense for me - 100 or shots a day is probably about 2x or 3x times the rate I'm comfortable with and can deal with processing wise. And looking at the images, I don't believe I got any more long term keepers at a 100 a day than I would have with 20 more carefully though through shots.
Digital does seem to lead to frantic machine gun shooting and the comtemplative mode gets lost a little.
However, I know everyone has their own way of doing and appreciating things and photography is a big enough space to accommodate everyone.
Cheers
Dave
1. The chance to spend some serious alone time.
For me, there is nothing quite like 2 or 3 hours spent in the countryside without any other people. The camera provides the excuse/reason/activity that makes this work.
I find it a lot easier to do photography without the distraction of companions (somehow allow one to enter the right focused state of mind - intense, yet relaxed). I also find it difficult to do photography in the presence of strangers - I find it inhbitory, like I was sneaking around nefariously or something akin.
The downsides of this are that I have no (physical!) photographically minded friends for those occasions when I do want to share and I can't bear the idea of joining a club. And sadly, these days the opportunities for a dedicated photo trip are almost zero because of family committments. Even next summer's planned Iceland trip will be mainly a familly holiday.
2. The thrill of looking at and making photos that are spot on to my taste.
Having looked at thousands of photos I've worked out what I like and what I want to create (doing it is another matter) - and much like my music taste, I have gradually eliminated what I don't like to the point I like nothing... fortunately not quite that extreme!
I now have a pretty good idea of what I enjoy looking at and making and for me this is a big step forward: the difficulty with photography was never thinking of things to photograph and styles to adopt; rather it was always what not to waste time with.
On the wider questions raised by others; I'm especially troubled by the sheer volume of imagery around. To me, it does dilute the impact of photography.
Wading through pbase or that big critique site can be depressing. Even if every posted photo was to a high standard (and a lot are), one still becomes quickly overwhelmed. I feel the reason is that after a while one only wants to see that 1 in 10,000 shot which absolutely hits the mark and looking at the near and not so near misses grinds down the artistic spirit...
Everyone is different, but Jono's 5000 shots a month make the blood blanch from my face.
I've just come back from 4 days in the beautiful city of Prague. Beautiful, but I would rather look at 10 pictures than 10,000. I shot 350 pictures in the City and thought it all a bit intense for me - 100 or shots a day is probably about 2x or 3x times the rate I'm comfortable with and can deal with processing wise. And looking at the images, I don't believe I got any more long term keepers at a 100 a day than I would have with 20 more carefully though through shots.
Digital does seem to lead to frantic machine gun shooting and the comtemplative mode gets lost a little.
However, I know everyone has their own way of doing and appreciating things and photography is a big enough space to accommodate everyone.
Cheers
Dave
Robert Campbell
Well-known member
Or, put briefly, Maslow's self-actualisation.
jonoslack
Active member
Hi Dave
First of all, great to see you here - and for everyone who may not have come across Dave, he's a stalwart guy with lots to contribute.
Good Post
As for the 5000 shots . . . . I've probably only done that many once (2 weddings and a 2 week holiday). 1000 is much more typical, and as I usually go out every day it only really amounts to a film a day.
I've just been to France for a week, and there were 300 shots.
So, not machinegunning at all, the point really is that if you shoot regularly they very quickly build up to a very high level, even if you are thinking about them, and that even if they are ALL good, nobody is going to look at them with any kind of contemplation.
My aim is to end up with more like 10 shots a month (but it's a hard ask!)
It brings to mind an Elvis Costello Album title
All this Useless Beauty.
jonoslack
Active member
Hi Bertie
I think you should explain the connection properly in a post of not less than 25,000 words
Amin
Active member
Re: What's the point? - and what to do about it.
My interested in photography has mainly been motivated by the enjoyment I get from documenting the lives of family, friends, and to an extent, colleagues. It really began for me with the birth of my first child 5 years ago.
I also enjoy documentary/situational and portrait photography of people I don't know, but that's more of a challenge for me. When I look at photography from decades ago, it motivates me to document some of what I'm seeing today, if only for my kids to see it someday. I'm thinking of doing a project on downtown East Baltimore, because I feel as though I take in a lot of interesting sights and situations on the way to and from work in a typical day. That idea is counterbalanced by a desire not to get shot.
My kids too have taken an interest in photography. For the little one, Philip, it's all about the fun of taking the photos. He doesn't even want to see the product. My older son Oliver likes the process and the results. Part of my enjoyment now is that photography is something I can do with the boys.
My interested in photography has mainly been motivated by the enjoyment I get from documenting the lives of family, friends, and to an extent, colleagues. It really began for me with the birth of my first child 5 years ago.
I also enjoy documentary/situational and portrait photography of people I don't know, but that's more of a challenge for me. When I look at photography from decades ago, it motivates me to document some of what I'm seeing today, if only for my kids to see it someday. I'm thinking of doing a project on downtown East Baltimore, because I feel as though I take in a lot of interesting sights and situations on the way to and from work in a typical day. That idea is counterbalanced by a desire not to get shot.
My kids too have taken an interest in photography. For the little one, Philip, it's all about the fun of taking the photos. He doesn't even want to see the product. My older son Oliver likes the process and the results. Part of my enjoyment now is that photography is something I can do with the boys.
I appreciated your entire post, Jono, and have a few comments about the bit quoted above as I can relate to it. The bulk of my photographs are simple family pictures. Many of them are prints that I enjoy viewing. A fraction of those are enjoyable to family and friends. Probably very few communicate something of value to acquaintances and strangers. One of my early projects for 2009 is going to be to try to select photos from that last category and set up a website for them.