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No new cameras?

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
- Most digital cameras have worse ergonomics than my film era Nikon F6 and Contax RX
- For my current print needs (my printer prints up to A2 format), I see little or no improvement in sharpness and detail rendering by going above 12MP (or 7MP with the L1 that has a weak AA filter)
- I rarely use ISO above 800
- Most of my cameras will last longer than me
- My Nokia outresolves all my cameras

Is there any point whatsoever in buying more digital cameras?
 
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Tim

Active member
I suppose a lot are awaiting "Full Frame" (FF-35mm that is) before they stop buying.
Its the wide-end of digital I find lacking and perhaps FF will go some way to address that.

While I think the EM-1 is a superb machine but I have not exceeded my EM-5 yet - I just wish it had Liveview HDMI so I could use a Prores recorder with it.
Like you Jorgen the resolution and sensitivity of what I have now is more than enough for most jobs.
Pick a few good lenses or camera with good lens is the key IMO.

I sometimes felt I just wanted to unload everything go to a Sony RX1 and take pics.
I was going to post in the Fuji forum but what about a X200 in FF?
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I'm trying to set some upgrade criteria for myself. Here are some to start with:

- A new camera should offer a visible improvement in image quality under the circumstance that I usually take photos.
- A new camera should have improved usability that will make it significantly easier for me to take photos.
- A new (or old) camera should have special, lasting values that enhances the experience of taking photos.

Any of the above will do in my book, but GAS is only acceptable for the last one, "lasting" being an important criteria. The latest digital gadget will always be improved upon a few months later, a 30 year old Hasselblad mostly won't.
 

alajuela

Active member
I might be off base but if we are talking about 35mm I can only say the 5Dlll is the best 35mm I have used in 35 years. And if I was shooting sports or wildlife the 1dx is in my opinion the best 35mm ever made.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I might be off base but if we are talking about 35mm I can only say the 5Dlll is the best 35mm I have used in 35 years. And if I was shooting sports or wildlife the 1dx is in my opinion the best 35mm ever made.
I'm not talking 35mm. I'm talking any format. I use several and they all display their own unique properties, film more than digital. With digital, I feel that the differences between formats are shrinking. I own many cameras that I fell are "the best", and they are all different. However, I very rarely fell that most new cameras offer any real, useable improvements over last years model, other than being new. But obviously, our criteria will differ.

Take a Nikon D4 vs. my D2Xs. The D4 is, in theory, vastly superior in more or less every area. But when I'm out on the race track taking photos, with the viewfinder glued to my eye, the last thing on my mind would be which of those cameras I was using, and as long as there's daylight, which it is most of the day, the images wouldn't differ much, if at all. Current retail value of a D2Xs is roughly 5% of that of a new D4 and I would need 50% longer lenses too.
 

alajuela

Active member
I'm not talking 35mm. I'm talking any format. I use several and they all display their own unique properties, film more than digital. With digital, I feel that the differences between formats are shrinking. I own many cameras that I fell are "the best", and they are all different. However, I very rarely fell that most new cameras offer any real, useable improvements over last years model, other than being new. But obviously, our criteria will differ.

Take a Nikon D4 vs. my D2Xs. The D4 is, in theory, vastly superior in more or less every area. But when I'm out on the race track taking photos, with the viewfinder glued to my eye, the last thing on my mind would be which of those cameras I was using, and as long as there's daylight, which it is most of the day, the images wouldn't differ much, if at all. Current retail value of a D2Xs is roughly 5% of that of a new D4 and I would need n50% longer lenses too.
I can not comment on Nikon digital line. When I went digital I went Canon. I have no remorse.
I think it's good the last thing on your mind when shooting is the model of camera you have. First the sign of a good piece of equipment is that it gets out of the way. Second the it is all about the image. Not what equipment was used,I am curious what was used, but only curious, not envious.
any body that waxes for cameras of long ago when 400 ISO was the ceiling w/o pushing the film. Well the analogies are endless.
I see a big difference in the files for printing with later cameras. But this is not an absolute exclusive statement. There were great wet plate images and there will be great iPhone images and who knows what else to come.
 
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Tibor

Member
I'm trying to set some upgrade criteria for myself.
I have now come to a point where I have only 1 single upgrade criteria for any photographic equipment that I now own and use:

The old piece of equipment no longer works.

That's it :angel:

Let me explain.

I have all the gear I need (probably ever more than that). That gear is doing for me what I want from it and I am more than pleased with the results. Even though most of the gear was bought used and none of it is top of the line or latest and greatest I am more than happy with it. In the last couple of months (roughly since May 2013) I realized that my photography hasn't improved due to new photographic gear (since I didn't buy anything new) but it has improved due to (in my opinion) these factors (in no particular order):

1. being familiar with the gear I own and love; I think you need to be in love with your camera and lenses and strobes and ... if you want to produce great results; to me this is like being married: at first it is love at first sight, followed by a lot of work and adjusting to each other, followed by improving skills and techniques and knowing each other better and deeper;

2. improving my photographic thinking and my visual eye / brain through studying photo books of photographers that inspire me and that I admire; namely (in no particular order): Sally Mann (The Immediate Family, At Twelve, Still Time), Rankin (Beautyfull, Caroline Saulnier, Ten Times Rosie, Breeding), Peter Lindbergh (Images of Women), Platon (Power), Albert Watson (Cyclops, Maroc), David Bailey (If We Shadows), JeanLoup Sieff, Paolo Roversi.

3. other intangible and/or non descriptive factors; like having a good day, being inspired, ...

So, I have always bought just the gear that was love at first sight, sold the pieces that didn't work out and stayed with the ones I love. So now I would buy another piece of gear, especially a camera or a lens, just in the case the old mistress died / stopped working. Adding another one to the existing harem of 4 cameras / 7 lenses would just not be appropriate.

As to the age thing (new cameras / old cameras). I just saw this movie "Before Midnight" in which Julie Delpy says to her long time lover / partner played by Ethan Hawke as a remark to him stating he is 41 years old: Oh, my God, you are the oldest man I have ever slept with / made love to. See the point? You can choose and have a short term relationships with your camera in which case she will be always 3 years or younger or you can build your relationship long term and still be in love when she is 10 years old and working.

Of course, all the above is relevant only if you know a few facts about who I am. I am 40 years old, a husband to a beautifull wife since 2006 and father of 2 great kids (born in 2010 and 2011). Photography is my hobby that I enjoy. As a matter of fact I enjoy it so much that I have turned one of our spare rooms into a small portrait studio and another one into a gear storage area. After a mid term relationship with Canon that ended in a peacefull divorce I fell in love with Mamiya at the end of 2011. It was after going back to film because the Canon Eos 3 and 35 mm film just couldn't cut it size wise. The 645 AFD, 80 AF 2.8 and 45 AF 2.8 were bought first, followed a few months later by the 645 AFD II, 80 AFD 2.8 and 150 AFD IF 2.8. My reasoning was I needed / wanted also the 150 mm lens and the 150 AFD IF supersedes the 150 AF 3.5 therefore I needed the II body because the I body is not compatible with the D lenses. Finally I traded my two L Canon primes for the 645 AFD III and 45 AFD 2.8 and bought also the 80 1.9 N. It was hard to sell those L primes for a good price so I made that trade when the opportunity arose. In April 2013 I added the Leaf Aptus 22 to the setup with the primary reason being I needed a long term cheaper alternative to the fujiroids for when working with strobes. I have 4 Profoto AcuteB2 600 Airs with Plume Wafers, Molas and Profotos. For travel and vacation photos I use exclusively the Fuji GA645 with a fixed 60mm f/4 lens.

So, in the spirit of my new non GAS philosophy my last photography related purchase was a return plane ticket to London for two persons, including hotel, a fine restaurant and gallery tickets. I am taking my beautifull wife to see two exibitions on 6 February 2014, the National Portrait Gallery - Taylor Wessing Photographic Portrait Prize and the Bailey

At the end of this lenghty post I must admit I have a wish list too. So, even though my statement that I will only upgrade to new equipment if the old piece of equipment no longer work holds true, I have one single gear related wish. It was just announced but it has been a secret wish for a few years now and it is the only reason I am still holding to 645 AFD and the AF (non D) lenses. Me and my family all love the sea and I want to capture those moments also slightly from below water. Fortunately the new sport housing is much cheaper than the previous underwater housing.

Also, I had a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II D and a Mamiya HX701 on my wish list for some time but now decided I do not need yet another camera (for reasoning please see above).
 

JoelM

Well-known member
I finally got a Leica M8 and a Nikon D2x (a few years ago) and after using them both quite a bit, I actually, for the first time, have no real want or desire to "upgrade". Sensor size and crop factors are only relevant if you're stuck thinking about 35mm film comparisons. New photographers have no idea what a 35mm lens on a 35mm film camera looks like. Only us older users have that frame of reference. If I should decide to make very large prints, then a larger sensor might be in my future.

Just my $0.02 worth,

Joel
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Well, I have bought three digital cameras for myself. I can say that the upgrade from the E-P1 to the Pentax 645D was pretty stunning. I have also bought an RX-1. The image quality there is really good.

The fact there is always another model coming out, and this was true with film, is really irrelevant. New models do not change the image quality of any of the cameras I own. Image quality is not a limiting factor in the cameras I own. I don't understand the need to upgrade, unless you just like buying new cameras. And if you just like buying new camera, well, simply admit it and stop worrying about how you are going to justify it. After a while, saying your old camera makes you look fat is not going to work--you can just upgrade to a new version of Photoshop.
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
I finally got a Leica M8 and a Nikon D2x (a few years ago) and after using them both quite a bit, I actually, for the first time, have no real want or desire to "upgrade". Sensor size and crop factors are only relevant if you're stuck thinking about 35mm film comparisons. New photographers have no idea what a 35mm lens on a 35mm film camera looks like. Only us older users have that frame of reference. If I should decide to make very large prints, then a larger sensor might be in my future.

Just my $0.02 worth,

Joel
I understand your reasoning - but I never liked the dx viewfinders - too cramped - just take a peek through a d700/D3 vs a D2X.....on the other hand I really like the Fuji X100 ...:rolleyes:
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I understand your reasoning - but I never liked the dx viewfinders - too cramped - just take a peek through a d700/D3 vs a D2X.....on the other hand I really like the Fuji X100 ...:rolleyes:
I actually find the viewfinder of the D2X/s rather nice, and I clearly prefer the AF-point layout to that of the D700. But there you go: We all see things a bit differently :)
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I'm trying to set some upgrade criteria for myself. ...
I find that whenever I make pronouncements about such stuff, I break the rules pretty quickly. I buy gear when I want to, when the mood strikes me.

Why buy new digital gear? Because I want something different/more/whatever than what I already have.

I hadn't planned to buy any more digital gear this year, but the E-M1 suits what I've wanted to get to in FourThirds format so nicely I figured, "Why not?" Camera, grip, one new lens, some accessories. I'm actually more into playing with Polaroid stuff right now than anything else. So I guess I'll have to figure out what to do with the E-M1 when it arrives. Shouldn't be too hard.

Will I buy any more digital cameras? Sure, but i'm not setting criteria for why, what, or when. I will likely sell some too.

Godfrey

"Equipment is transitory. Photographs endure."
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Well, I have bought three digital cameras for myself. I can say that the upgrade from the E-P1 to the Pentax 645D was pretty stunning. I have also bought an RX-1. The image quality there is really good.

The fact there is always another model coming out, and this was true with film, is really irrelevant. New models do not change the image quality of any of the cameras I own. Image quality is not a limiting factor in the cameras I own. I don't understand the need to upgrade, unless you just like buying new cameras. And if you just like buying new camera, well, simply admit it and stop worrying about how you are going to justify it. After a while, saying your old camera makes you look fat is not going to work--you can just upgrade to a new version of Photoshop.
While I agree with you, there is one huge difference between film cameras and their digital counterparts:

It took 45 years from the Nikon F (1959) to the F6. From the D1 (1999) to the D4 (2012), it only took 13 years, and that's only half the truth, since the digital range includes 8 models (D1, D1H, D1X, D2H, D2X, D3, D3X, D4), not including the "s" varieties, which would have added 3 more).

This is of course only an observation from my side, since I mostly buy obsolete but mint cameras (and gain from this development), but it says something about the change of pace when the camera industry changed from film to digital. As a result of all this, a mint D2X is now cheaper than a mint F2, go figure...
 
V

Vivek

Guest
While I agree with you, there is one huge difference between film cameras and their digital counterparts:

It took 45 years from the Nikon F (1959) to the F6. From the D1 (1999) to the D4 (2012), it only took 13 years, and that's only half the truth, since the digital range includes 8 models (D1, D1H, D1X, D2H, D2X, D3, D3X, D4), not including the "s" varieties, which would have added 3 more).

This is of course only an observation from my side, since I mostly buy obsolete but mint cameras (and gain from this development), but it says something about the change of pace when the camera industry changed from film to digital. As a result of all this, a mint D2X is now cheaper than a mint F2, go figure...
If there is a mint D2X or a mint F2 available now then that is a very sad narrative on these photography tools.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
If there is a mint D2X or a mint F2 available now then that is a very sad narrative on these photography tools.
I tend to agree, but there are always well healed amateurs who want to have the "best", and then after 2, 3 or 30 years find that the "best" is too heavy or too complicated. The original owner of my D2Xs took 5,000 photos with it in 5 years before he realized that the camera wasn't optimal for him. He lost 90% of the value during the process. That's around a dollar per click :eek:
 

alajuela

Active member
I tend to agree, but there are always well healed amateurs who want to have the "best", and then after 2, 3 or 30 years find that the "best" is too heavy or too complicated. The original owner of my D2Xs took 5,000 photos with it in 5 years before he realized that the camera wasn't optimal for him. He lost 90% of the value during the process. That's around a dollar per click :eek:
You should check out China where for about 4 years up to about a year ago, Top of Line (TOL) digital cameras were a fashion accessory for guys like the LV bag was for women.

Now the camera shops (which are clustered in one or two buildings) are ghosts of their former selves.
There are stand alone Leica shops galore, with at least one complete set of all their lines, which may account for the shortage of inventory in Europe and the USA. I think this is the Hasselblad thinking - to cash in on this. I was just in Hong Kong airport at the duty free, and saw two complete lines of the Lunar etc.
I guess the thinking on their part is that China will do for their brand what Japan did for Rolex watches and Scotch in the 1980s. I should add that in Shanghai - you can not go out to a park of down by the BUND without seeing 4 - 5 clusters of local photographers taking Wedding shots, (sometimes is fun to take shots of them taking the photos)

It all ebbs and flows and I think now for the salad days are over for Canon and Nikon. Also you see Sigma giving Canon and Nikon a run for their their money on lenses.

I think that is why Canon at least is taking so long to come out with a flagship DSLR - I think it will be a break thru in sensor technology, in size, DR, and ISO. Also I expect that they are not anticapating the sales volumn they had before on the TOL DSLR.
I think the Asian market (especially China) has been the driving force. Problem for Cameras is two fold, buying a (TOL) camera, is the same as buying a Stradivarius violin it does not make your music sound better unless you are really good to begin with - it amplifies your short comings.
I see alot of or iPhones and smaller cameras out there now as the reality starts to set in, the weight, the cost of lenses, and to get the most out TOL DSLRs requires a knowledge of post production. None of which works for someone who is just going to post online. It like buying a Porsche or a Hummer to drive in the city, Or buying the best paint or brushes to paint like Rembrandt

A mobile phone and smaller camera is much more practical for most people. But I think that's great also - I have seen some really nice shots, and expect to see even better ones, to be optimistic, I hope this gives people the appreciation of what makes a good image and something to hang on their wall, unless of course there becomes a larger market for digital frames, and forego printing all together.

Phil
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
My personal criteria has usually been lenses as the priority, less so cameras.

I was pretty set on cameras 4 years ago, but life changes can intervene. I decided to semi-retire and the H system went bye-bye in favor of an S2P kit that can do more of what interests me now.

Every blue moon some camera comes along and upsets the apple cart ... the Leica M Monochrome for example.

I didn't need a Sony A99 ... the A900 was plenty good enough. I got one anyway because it has some new features that have become valuable to me ... something as simple as the articulated LCD that saves my poor knees and makes overhead framing accurate.

Looking forward, I honestly can't think of any camera advancement that'd interest me enough to dust off the check book.

On the other hand, better lenses or missing focal lengths in my systems is a different matter.

- Marc
 
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