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Thread: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

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    Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Oh no... not again

    I'm not a big fan of Thom Hogan for many different reasons, the most important being that he's often too technical, too much of an engineer. This time however, I think he's written a well balanced article about the advantages and disadvantages that both system types offer. I have used, and still use, cameras from most of the manufacturers that he mentions, and his experiences are more or less exactly the same as mine. In addition, he knows his technical stuff, which I don't.

    Seven Reasons Why I’m Still a Nikon DSLR User | DSLRBodies | Thom Hogan
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    I like this bloke's writing style.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    It's a bit of a snore. My tongue-in-cheek rejoinder:

    1. Viewfinder

    I prefer the improved ability to critical focus in dim light and with ultra-wide lenses given by the Olympus E-M1, or Leica SL EVF over ANY optical SLR focusing screen, never mind the additional focusing aid provided by focus peaking, or live histogram view and exposure simulation for judging proper exposure.

    2. Lenses

    I have excellent Leica lenses in focal lengths from 15mm to 500mm focal length, all of which perform beautifully on my Leica SL. Similarly, I have excellent Olympus and Panasonic/Leica lenses in focal lengths from 22 to 560mm (equivalent) for the Olympus E-M1. My six Nikon lenses are no better.

    3. Battery Life

    I have never run out of battery life during a shooting session from a single battery in any of the mirrorless cameras I've been shooting with since 2009.

    4. Focus Speed and Accuracy

    My preference is manual focus, and I usually beat any AF system's accuracy when shooting my typical subject matter.

    5. Controls & Ergonomics

    My Nikon D750 feels like a Magic Wurlitzer of buttons, dials, sliders, and menu options compared to my SL. (So does the E-M1, for that matter. :-)

    6. Buffer Performance

    I shoot in single shot mode 99.9% of the time. Both my cameras far exceed any need for buffer performance I might have.

    7. Neutrality

    The DNG files out of the SL at the cameras defaults are as neutral as the NEF files out of the Nikon. In fact, they're more malleable when editing.

    G

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    When the EVF view is indistinguishable from an OVF, we'll need a new list of things to complain about.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    When the EVF view is indistinguishable from an OVF, we'll need a new list of things to complain about.
    Thom Hogan isn't complaining, and neither am I. He's just stating that for his photography, a DSLR still works better. He also lists a number of advantages that mirrorless cameras offer.

    When it comes to the EVF vs. OVF debate, the EVF is still not nearly there for some kinds of photography. I do see that some sports photographers are using the X-T2 successfully at motorsports events (see the links I posted on the X-T2 thread). I will try the Fuji to see how much that has improved, and for sure it looks like an impressive piece of kit. My E-M1 isn't even close to what an OVF offers for action photography.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Thom Hogan isn't complaining, and neither am I. He's just stating that for his photography, a DSLR still works better. He also lists a number of advantages that mirrorless cameras offer.

    When it comes to the EVF vs. OVF debate, the EVF is still not nearly there for some kinds of photography. I do see that some sports photographers are using the X-T2 successfully at motorsports events (see the links I posted on the X-T2 thread). I will try the Fuji to see how much that has improved, and for sure it looks like an impressive piece of kit. My E-M1 isn't even close to what an OVF offers for action photography.
    Have no fear, I am not anti-DSLR, nor anti EVF.

    I would like to see a DSLR with a more svelt pentaprism though. A DSLR like OM4 or a DSLR Pentax ME Super.
    A true DSLR the size of an EM5 !

    Its always about size ! LOL

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Have no fear, I am not anti-DSLR, nor anti EVF.

    I would like to see a DSLR with a more svelt pentaprism though. A DSLR like OM4 or a DSLR Pentax ME Super.
    A true DSLR the size of an EM5 !

    Its always about size ! LOL
    Exactly! Nikon has shown how small a relatively advanced DSLR can be made with the 420g (including battery) D5500. With a proper pentaprism viewfinder and a more traditional user interface and body shape, it would gain a few grams, but would still be as light and as small as the 469g E-M5 II.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Thanks for posting Thom's thoughts.

    I think the debate will continue on for some time yet.

    Personally, my repertoire of camera types co-exist nicely each with their strengths and weaknesses depending on application.

    I currently use a Leica Rangefinder (Mirrorless/OVF, a Sony A7R/A7R-II Mirrorless/EVF , and a Leica S(006) Mirror/OVF. Three distinctly different types of cameras; three different viewfinders/operational experiences.

    I can eliminate the M and S cameras because they are familiar experiences practiced over a long period of intense use. The M for over 40+ years, and the S being an extension of SLR/DSLR (35mm and MF) for almost as long (Primarily Canon, Contax, Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Nikon).

    I also would suggest that new tech advantages are being over exaggerated by converts, and over-villified by non-users.

    In many cases, "new tech" solves problems many of us weren't aware we had

    I don't recall having problems focusing a rangefinder or DSLR in low light, nor particularly any issue achieving proper exposures heck, with film we didn't even have a preview at all.

    Mirror-less with EVF simply goes about it differently and offers alternative ways of seeing in certain light that has pluses and minuses of its own. Low light EVF using necessary higher ISOs produces video gain that makes mag views difficult to use. Plus the daylight level of VF brightness in low light screws with one's night vision. On the other hand, exposing in low light seems easier with WYSIWYG EVF viewing. So, on occasion it can be an experiential trade off.

    In any case, with Mirror-less/EVF or DSLRs wonder-cams, we seem to be headed toward being increasingly dependent on a symbiotic relationship with our tools. Whether that is good or bad depends on one's personal perspective.

    It some ways it is a bit like our inability to trust doing simple math in our head, due to the ubiquitous calculator. Or people viewing everything on a cell phone screen, even when in a wonder-fill location.

    I like both, use both, and don't think for a minute that one is better than the other although one seems destined to be the future whether we like it or not.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 14th July 2016 at 00:47.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Have no fear, I am not anti-DSLR, nor anti EVF.

    I would like to see a DSLR with a more svelt pentaprism though. A DSLR like OM4 or a DSLR Pentax ME Super.
    A true DSLR the size of an EM5 !

    Its always about size ! LOL
    I resemble that remark. Oh, wait ...!

    My baseline camera had been for many years a Nikon SLR. Love Leica RFs, but always found them a bit too limited in versatility to be the baseline; they were always the complement. When I described my dream camera in 2001, it was in essence what is now the Nikon D750. But having gotten there, I just don't find it particularly appealing for my uses. These TTL electronic viewfinder cameras came up along the way and, overall, do what I want more proficiently and conveniently.

    Now, I probably don't have Thom Hogan's needs or investment in Nikon lenses. There are things that an SLR is ideal for, and there are a lot more bits and lenses available for Nikons and Canons than for anything else. Any rational photographer knows that, for the most part, once past a certain level of competence, the camera itself is the least part of what it takes to make awesome photos. We obsess over the minutiae of camera operation because we enjoy doing that and we like things to work in a way that suits our personal predilections, but if such things are actually getting in the way of making compelling photos on average, we have larger issues.

    So my list above is tongue-in-cheek. If the two cameras I mention weren't in my cabinet, along with their lenses, I'd be singing the D750's praises too. But I do like using the darn things more than I like the D750, and they suit my particular working needs and desires well.

    I'm glad the option is there.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 13th July 2016 at 10:57.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    One thing that confuses me is how some of the suppliers of mirrorless cameras try to reinvent the camera interface, particularly the menu system. Although there have been differences between brands, the physical UI of cameras has been relatively consistent since the introduction of AF cameras a few decades ago, and the menu systems have all been pretty similar too. Nikon user changing to Canon used to complain a bit and vice versa, but that was peanuts compared to what we are seeing now, with Sony and Olympus making the wheel square, or is it triangular?

    Example:
    When I adjust ISO or f-stop or pretty much any other parameter on the E-M1, I get get a long list of f-stops (or any of the other parameter) horizontally across my viewfinder obstructing my view and introducing an alien moving element into my composition. It's like having a nanny telling me to turn the steering wheel to the right when making a right turn. Any photographer who has used a camera more than twice knows that the f-stop will change when he turns the command wheel, he knows that it will go up when he turns it in one direction and down when he turns it in the other direction. The changing of the f-stop was most probably the reason why he turned wheel to start with, and he'll see that the value of the figures somewhere along the edge of the viewfinder will change, unless he's blind, which isn't very probable all things considered.

    Maybe it's possible to turn "functionality" like that off in some menu, but why should I have to do that? I bought the top model, and it behaves like an iPhone. Apart from the fact of course that the menu system seems to be made by the same people who made the "Adventure" computer game that we used to run on IBM mainframe computers during the seventies. "YOU ARE IN A LITTLE MAZE OF TWISTING PASSAGES, ALL DIFFERENT". Yep, I can relate to that, and it was fun solving the riddles while waiting for stacks of thousands of punched cards being re-read for the umpteenth times, but I don't want to spend the whole evening figuring out how to change basic camera settings.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Jorgen,

    I don't know what you've got set up in your E-M1, but I can't figure out how to get mine to do that. I recently upgraded it to fw4.1 and haven't had time to reinstall my preferred settings yet, so the camera is at the factory defaults. What mode are you using? are you using the touchscreen control interface or the Super Control Panel? LCD or EVF? I'm truly mystified. My E-M1, even at the factory defaults, is bone simple to use and doesen't put any dancing/flying pigs and traveling F/stop whirligigs into my field of view at any time. I turn the control dial, and the number at the bottom of the screen increments. Thats it. I did a shoot the other day, on short notice, didn't have time to do my customizations, and it just worked without any complications... ???

    The E-M1 menu system is very similar, almost identical in many aspects, to the E-5 SLR's menu system, likewise very similar to the E-3 and E-30*SLRs' menu systems. All of which were a significant elaboration on the E-1 menu system (a much much simpler camera). It's not "reinvented afresh for the mirrorless camera", it's a direct derivative of what came before it in the Olympus professional camera line.

    You seem to have never-ending issues with the E-M1 and its control organization. Perhaps you'd be better off switching to the Panasonic GH3/GH4 which are more simply organized, have fewer features, and seems more your cup of tea?

    G

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    One thing that confuses me is how some of the suppliers of mirrorless cameras try to reinvent the camera interface, particularly the menu system. Although there have been differences between brands, the physical UI of cameras has been relatively consistent since the introduction of AF cameras a few decades ago, and the menu systems have all been pretty similar too. Nikon user changing to Canon used to complain a bit and vice versa, but that was peanuts compared to what we are seeing now, with Sony and Olympus making the wheel square, or is it triangular?

    Example:
    When I adjust ISO or f-stop or pretty much any other parameter on the E-M1, I get get a long list of f-stops (or any of the other parameter) horizontally across my viewfinder obstructing my view and introducing an alien moving element into my composition. It's like having a nanny telling me to turn the steering wheel to the right when making a right turn. Any photographer who has used a camera more than twice knows that the f-stop will change when he turns the command wheel, he knows that it will go up when he turns it in one direction and down when he turns it in the other direction. The changing of the f-stop was most probably the reason why he turned wheel to start with, and he'll see that the value of the figures somewhere along the edge of the viewfinder will change, unless he's blind, which isn't very probable all things considered.

    Maybe it's possible to turn "functionality" like that off in some menu, but why should I have to do that? I bought the top model, and it behaves like an iPhone. Apart from the fact of course that the menu system seems to be made by the same people who made the "Adventure" computer game that we used to run on IBM mainframe computers during the seventies. "YOU ARE IN A LITTLE MAZE OF TWISTING PASSAGES, ALL DIFFERENT". Yep, I can relate to that, and it was fun solving the riddles while waiting for stacks of thousands of punched cards being re-read for the umpteenth times, but I don't want to spend the whole evening figuring out how to change basic camera settings.
    Growing up in the "video game age" (I'm in my mid-30's) I really don't see the parallel between mirrorless cameras and video games. I suppose it's a generational thing and Sony (in particular) doesn't have the long camera history like a Leica, Hasselblad, or Canon. Panasonic menus are a lot like digital Leica ones... Or at least they were when I still owned Leica's.

    This does mean that mirrorless can't go to a more simple design (I think they actually tried with the original NEX cameras) but I believe they chose to just unify to what the DSLR/SLT cameras used for familial similarity.

    I think there are three major points to make - many are used to "company x's" way to do things. Many are used to cameras in the film days (of in many cases company x's ecosystem) that were ONLY cameras. There are a large contingent of photographer that want a camera that ONLY focuses on still photography.

    Many of of the more "complicated" features are video centric features which usually results in 60-75% of the menu options in general.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Growing up in the "video game age" (I'm in my mid-30's) I really don't see the parallel between mirrorless cameras and video games. I suppose it's a generational thing and Sony (in particular) doesn't have the long camera history like a Leica, Hasselblad, or Canon. Panasonic menus are a lot like digital Leica ones... Or at least they were when I still owned Leica's.

    This does mean that mirrorless can't go to a more simple design (I think they actually tried with the original NEX cameras) but I believe they chose to just unify to what the DSLR/SLT cameras used for familial similarity.

    I think there are three major points to make - many are used to "company x's" way to do things. Many are used to cameras in the film days (of in many cases company x's ecosystem) that were ONLY cameras. There are a large contingent of photographer that want a camera that ONLY focuses on still photography.

    Many of of the more "complicated" features are video centric features which usually results in 60-75% of the menu options in general.
    In a way, what you write makes sense, but then Panasonic, arguably the most video centric brand of all, offers a classic SLR user interface, somewhere between Canon and Nikon, and it works excellently for photography as well as for video. And mind you, Panasonic hadn't made a single exchangeable lens stills camera before the L1, some 10 years ago.

    Edit:
    The reference to Adventure was a joke. Computer games at that time had no graphics, which was just as well. The standard IBM monitors couldn't show anything other than green letters and numbers, so you had to use your imagination to figure out what was happening, just like with the Olympus menu system

    The sequence of the word in the quoted sentence represented an indication where to find things.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 13th July 2016 at 21:00.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Jorgen,

    I don't know what you've got set up in your E-M1, but I can't figure out how to get mine to do that. I recently upgraded it to fw4.1 and haven't had time to reinstall my preferred settings yet, so the camera is at the factory defaults. What mode are you using? are you using the touchscreen control interface or the Super Control Panel? LCD or EVF? I'm truly mystified. My E-M1, even at the factory defaults, is bone simple to use and doesen't put any dancing/flying pigs and traveling F/stop whirligigs into my field of view at any time. I turn the control dial, and the number at the bottom of the screen increments. Thats it. I did a shoot the other day, on short notice, didn't have time to do my customizations, and it just worked without any complications... ???

    The E-M1 menu system is very similar, almost identical in many aspects, to the E-5 SLR's menu system, likewise very similar to the E-3 and E-30*SLRs' menu systems. All of which were a significant elaboration on the E-1 menu system (a much much simpler camera). It's not "reinvented afresh for the mirrorless camera", it's a direct derivative of what came before it in the Olympus professional camera line.

    You seem to have never-ending issues with the E-M1 and its control organization. Perhaps you'd be better off switching to the Panasonic GH3/GH4 which are more simply organized, have fewer features, and seems more your cup of tea?

    G
    I upgraded to 4.1 too, and it still looks the same, I have no idea why anybody would want it to begin with. I did use the E-1 as my main camera for a few years until I killed it in a motorcycle accident, and from what I remember, it had a very simple, down-to-earth menu system.

    Ideally, I should have the GH4 rather than the E-M1. However, the Panasonic focuses very slowly with the PanaLeica 14-50mm and it lacks IBIS which is useful, particularly with the Zuiko 40-150mm. It will be interesting to see what the GH5 has to offer, and the E-M1 II. I have a feeling that the new E-M1 will be in a different class compared to the old one, bigger and with a bigger battery. We'll see.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    What some maker could experiment with is open up their camera software interface to the community.
    Provide a basic bootable camera with bare minimum and a SDK of sorts that an online community can write 1,2 or 100 differing interfaces for.
    If they include a way of recovery like a iPhone or Android phone has then they should be ok.

    The only downside is we may spend more time tinkering with the OS than taking images.
    (before anyone says android i think it has too many overheads)
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    I think that as with all things that come down to personal preference, there will be as many for as against any new technology, it's all good! Like others, I have never needed my viewfinder to show me what an image will look like at the exposure settings I have chosen but some love that, I can pre-visualise it quite easily without seeing it, I also don't have a need for magnified view for focussing or focus peaking, that may change as I get older though! Without those things, the evf for me has no benefit, my eye can deal with far greater dynamic range looking at a view through the lens than the evf can provide, if that changes and an evf shows as much as an ovf then there will be less reason for an ovf but at the moment that is not the case. These are my own preferences and there are plenty of cameras that work for me, for those who value what an evf provides for them then there are also now loads of options for them too, it's a win win situation, a camera only has to work for the person standing behind it! Ultimately it's your creativity that produces the final image, as long as the camera doesn't get in the way of that then it's doing its job.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Nicely written but nothing new in my mind.

    Thinking back on some earlier discussions here and on the Luminous Landscape all his points were already covered in spades a long time ago.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    I think that as will all things that come down to personal preference, there will be as many for as against any new technology, it's all good! Like others, I have never needed my viewfinder to show me what an image will look like at the exposure settings I have chosen but some love that, I can pre-visualise it quite easily without seeing it, I also don't have a need for magnified view for focussing or focus peaking, that may change as I get older though! Without those things, the evf for me has no benefit, my eye can deal with far greater dynamic range looking at a view through the lens than the evf can provide, if that changes and an evf shows as much as an ovf then there will be less reason for an ovf but at the moment that is not the case. These are my own preferences and there are plenty of cameras that work for me, for those who value what an evf provides for them then there are also now loads of options for them too, it's a win win situation, a camera only has to work for the person standing behind it! Ultimately it's your creativity that produces the final image, as long as the camera doesn't get in the way of that then it's doing its job.

    Mat
    To elaborate on that I think it's not only personal preference that speaks to new technology, but can depend on applications even with-in one person's experiences.

    It was common practice for commercial photographers to shoot Polaroid Previews with LG Format & MF film cameras, and many of us wished for that convenience with 35mm then digital technology provided tethered shooting with big formats and Live-View for 35mm.

    I agree that with experience comes the ability to pre-visualize what you get with the settings you have selected, however actually seeing what you will get is of value when the lighting is particularly challenging, or you are interested in exploring some creative exposure. What is of benefit is that it promotes experimentation.

    Another interesting application comes with manually focusing challenging lenses using focus magnification with a Leica M 50/0.95 on a Sony A7R-II was a revelation for me. The hit ratio went to almost 100%.

    I still prefer OVF, but do have occasion to work with a EVF camera and have come to see them as more alike than opposites.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Sure, I don't think we are talking about different things, I talk only about the way I want to do things and the kit I own. My preferences are built from my experiences which help me decide how I want to work, it's not the only way and may not even be the most efficient way but it's the way I like it!

    As I don't do anything outside shooting commercially, I spend a huge amount of time just shooting anyway, I have good friends here who will sit for me for hours whilst I try different things, practice stuff and explore the reaches of my kit and imagination, I experiment a lot! Just on Saturday I had a friend bring her daughter around and I just photographed her with around 20 different lighting setups inside and outside, I spent an hour just focussing manually and more than that focussing with af, there's a very good chance I could just use evf, zoom in and nail focus every time, use ttl and take single shot, nothing wrong with that but it's not the way I want to do it so I don't! I remember when I first bought the Profoto TTL controller for the Nikon, I'd set up the lights and take a shot and the exposure was right, easy, efficient and so bloody boring! Went back to manual and just preferred the experimentation, it almost always opened up new things. I understand completely that you appreciate evf etc. as a means of experimenting in different conditions, I personally haven't found my creativity restricted by not having it, there's no right or wrong, just different. My opinion would probably change if I owned lenses like the Leica you mention and found it tricky to focus but as I don't, it's not something that factors.

    Ultimately, whenever I see an image that really stands out to me, I have absolutely no thought for what was used to capture it, I just don't care, the "why" I find fascinating but not the "how", I never get anyone asking me what camera I use, I like that!

    Technology is moving on at such a pace, it's a great time to be a photographer, no matter how you like to work, there is brilliant kit out there to help you produce the results you want, I'm not anti any technology, just not interested in buying it unless it does something for me that what I have doesn't.

    Mat

    Actually, just to add, the biggest development in my own images has not been from camera equipment but from software, C1 has made a huge difference over LR for me, plus investing more time in learning about post processing has done far more for me than new equipment has, that and taking the time to travel to places I don't often see. I think I would actually prefer spending the money I would use for a new camera on visiting some new places but I appreciate that's a very personal thing.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Nicely written but nothing new in my mind.

    Thinking back on some earlier discussions here and on the Luminous Landscape all his points were already covered in spades a long time ago.
    Yup.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Sure, I don't think we are talking about different things,

    I remember when I first bought the Profoto TTL controller for the Nikon, I'd set up the lights and take a shot and the exposure was right, easy, efficient and so bloody boring! Went back to manual and just preferred the experimentation, it almost always opened up new things. I understand completely that you appreciate evf etc. as a means of experimenting in different conditions, I personally haven't found my creativity restricted by not having it, there's no right or wrong, just different. My opinion would probably change if I owned lenses like the Leica you mention and found it tricky to focus but as I don't, it's not something that factors.
    Actually, I sold that Lens, but since the camera offers the feature I use it for manual focus lenses mainly because, unlike the M or S camera which are more manual oriented OVF, the Sonys are less so.

    Ultimately, whenever I see an image that really stands out to me, I have absolutely no thought for what was used to capture it, I just don't care, the "why" I find fascinating but not the "how", I never get anyone asking me what camera I use, I like that!

    Same here. Content or "why it was presented that way" is what I'm interested in also. However, if I see an interesting lighting configuration I admit to being curious as to what was used and how it was configured. I love making some of my own modifiers to solve similar lighting challenges. I just made a 14" translucent globe modifier for under $80.

    Technology is moving on at such a pace, it's a great time to be a photographer, no matter how you like to work, there is brilliant kit out there to help you produce the results you want, I'm not anti any technology, just not interested in buying it unless it does something for me that what I have doesn't.

    I think you are not alone in that thought. These days it is often the little things that make far more difference than swapping out expensive camera systems.

    Actually, just to add, the biggest development in my own images has not been from camera equipment but from software, C1 has made a huge difference over LR for me, plus investing more time in learning about post processing has done far more for me than new equipment has, that and taking the time to travel to places I don't often see. I think I would actually prefer spending the money I would use for a new camera on visiting some new places but I appreciate that's a very personal thing.

    For me, the biggest change hasn't been related to gear or software it has been a shift in purpose. I've combined my advertising experience and photography to help small companies build their brand something they normally couldn't afford . Sometimes I'll do it for barter. That has gotten me involved in developing and expressing ideas I probably wouldn't have experienced previously. I've been doing on-site seminars also.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Nicely written but nothing new in my mind.

    Thinking back on some earlier discussions here and on the Luminous Landscape all his points were already covered in spades a long time ago.
    There's always something new. There are newer, better cameras of each type being launched every month, and while one can question how useful the new developments are, they do show that nobody is resting on his laurels. If there are any laurels to rest on, for look at this:

    According to official CIPA statistics, the number of cameras shipped have gone down in all areas except Asia outside Japan. These are the figures for January to May this year compared to the same period in 2015, number of units shipped.

    Japan
    Mirrorless: -35.7%
    DSLR: -21.3%

    Europe
    Mirrorless: +1.7%
    DSLR: -4.2%

    Americas
    Mirrorless: -25.8%
    DSLR: -9.6%

    Asia outside Japan
    Mirrorless: +8.6%
    DSLR: -23.1%

    Total
    Mirrorless: -8%
    DSLR: -14.7%

    Mirrorless seems to lose traction everywhere except in Asia. That is interesting since a huge part of the Asian market consist of people who haven't owned a camera before, the new middle classes. Also, Asia outside Japan now represents 50% of the world's camera market, which is why sales here push the total statistics towards a mirrorless win. Marketing of mirrorless cameras has been very strong in Asia, and since many of the mirrorless brands were well known household names already, much stronger than the traditional camera brands, they've had a relatively easy match.

    In the traditional markets, innovation is important to compete with the traditionally strong brand names like Canon and Nikon. Unfortunately, the last time a mirrorless camera represented more innovation than their DSLR competitors was in 2008 with the launch of the Panasonic G1. Take a look at the Fuji X-T2 for instance, a fine camera where Fuji has listened to its customers and presented real progress:

    - LCD that can tilt in two directions. My Canon A95 from 2004 could tilt the LCD in all directions.
    - Two card slots. Nikon D300s had 2 card slots in 2009, higher end Canon and Nikon models earlier than that.
    - 4K video, just like Panasonic GH4 got in 2014 and several DSLR cameras launched lately also have.
    - Ability to carry 3 batteries with the grip, so that one can get as many shots as the $500 Nikon D3300 can with one. This is what we call a workaround.
    - High quality 24MP sensor. Yup, just like the Nikon D3300.
    - Better EVF refresh rate in "Power Mode" with higher energy consumption. Any DSLR has unlimited refresh rate with zero energy consumption.

    Again, it's a fine camera, like many other mirrorless cameras. But if I should get the idea of changing to Fuji, it wouldn't be because it's mirrorless. It would be because they make some great lenses and because the image quality is exceptional. But most consumers only buy the kit lens and one $200 telephoto zoom. They couldn't care less about Fuji's fine lenses, and the sensor in the Digital Rebel is just fine too. And they get confused when they look into the viewfinder of a mirrorless camera and it's dark, even if they remembered to remove the lens cap.

    Until recently, I've been of the opinion that mirrorless will win the world market. Just give it time. But I'm not so sure anymore. It seems like it's a winning concept in Asia where I live, but when I talk with young people in Europe, they ask me if they should buy Nikon or Canon.
    Things I sell: Stock photography by Jorgen Udvang at Alamy
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    Europe
    Mirrorless: +1.7%
    DSLR: -4.2%


    Until recently, I've been of the opinion that mirrorless will win the world market. Just give it time. But I'm not so sure anymore. It seems like it's a winning concept in Asia where I live, but when I talk with young people in Europe, they ask me if they should buy Nikon or Canon.
    You are not talking to the right people?

    Is Hogan's article in similar vein?

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You are not talking to the right people?

    Is Hogan's article in similar vein?
    You are correct, there's a slight increase for mirrorless in Europe. My mistake. Still, the figures are dramatic for the other two "old" markets, particularly Japan, where mirrorless has had its strongest market until now.

    There's another interesting trend:
    Mirrorless cameras does better if figures for value are compared rather than figures for number of bodies. This indicates strongly that mirrorless sells better at the higher end of the market. That can be because those who buy higher en models are better informed, and then buy into mirrorless as a better solution, or because people with higher disposable income are more likely to buy "the latest greatest" whatever the technology is, while those with less knowledge and/or money stay with the trusted, old camera brands.

    Here's a link to the full market report for May:

    http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201605_e.pdf

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Agree with that readily. Most youngsters here are seen toting a (cropped sensor) DSLR. I have seen only one leica Q (middle aged wealthy guy?), 2 Sony RX1 (young China or HK tourists?) 3 Sony A7 among about a few hundred cameras in the past year.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    These are the reasons to buy a camera, in no particular order:

    - It has good lenses.
    - It has the features that you want.
    - It works the way you need it to work.
    - It produces good images.
    - You like it.

    Buying or being interested in a camera because it is "mirrorless", "DSLR", or because some market trend indicates that it might or might not be popular somewhere is a complete waste of time and energy.

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Japan
    Mirrorless: -35.7%
    DSLR: -21.3%

    Europe
    Mirrorless: +1.7%
    DSLR: -4.2%

    Americas
    Mirrorless: -25.8%
    DSLR: -9.6%

    Asia outside Japan
    Mirrorless: +8.6%
    DSLR: -23.1%

    Total
    Mirrorless: -8%
    DSLR: -14.7%

    Mirrorless seems to lose traction everywhere except in Asia.
    the Pentax K1 and Canon 5Dr etc should have pushed up DSLR sales.
    Must be the low end models taking a hit from camera phones

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    These are the reasons to buy a camera, in no particular order:

    - It has good lenses.
    - It has the features that you want.
    - It works the way you need it to work.
    - It produces good images.
    - You like it.

    Buying or being interested in a camera because it is "mirrorless", "DSLR", or because some market trend indicates that it might or might not be popular somewhere is a complete waste of time and energy.

    G
    Thats pretty good advice. Proof for me being ML or DSLR ambivalent is, I am right now considering either the X-T2 or the Pentax K1 or maybe the Sony A7II. Either DSLR or ML as will do the job I have coming up, but its more what I can justify (afford) AND size as I was hoping to travel light with it also.
    With all three I will adapt to the OS inside. My needs are not extensive.
    I need to go look at the K1 and handle it. If not too big it will likely get the nod.

    "- It has good lenses" is a good starting point


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But if I should get the idea of changing to Fuji, it wouldn't be because it's mirrorless. It would be because they make some great lenses and because the image quality is exceptional.
    but add to this, size and weight. This is the sticking point with ML.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Tim, what a waste of Hogan's article!
    (The guy ran blog on mirrorless, what happened to that?)

    The only dslr you would consider is the Pentax K1!

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post

    but add to this, size and weight. This is the sticking point with ML.
    Not always, D750 1,500g vs. A7 II 1,420g


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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Mirrorless has another challenge too: eBay

    If I have a Nikon FX camera and I need a cheapish 300mm prime that will autofocus on my camera, I can go to eBay and buy the Nikkor 300mm f/4 AF, a lens that I have, for around $400, and I get an excellent lens that will last for many years.

    If I want the corresponding focal length on any mirrorless camera, if such an AF lens is even available, I have to buy a new or much newer lens and obviously much more expensive lens. I just did that for my E-M1, and the only realistic alternative was a used 40-150mm f/2.8 (80-300mm eqv.) for around $1,200. If I insisted on a prime, it would have been the 4/3 150mm f/2 that can be had used for around the same price. This is exactly one of the points in Thom's article.

    Many camera/photography enthusiasts are young people on a budget, and having access to literally tens of millions of native AF lenses for either of the DSLR brands is a huge money-saver. It will take years, or decades even, before a similar selection of lenses is available second hand in native mirrorless mounts.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Sheesh. There are any number of excellent condition, pro-quality Olympus ZD 50-200/2.8-3.5 ED lenses available for prices between $250 and $550 that will work beautifully on your E-M1 or any other Micro-FourThirds camera. With the MMF-3 mount adapter, it will be fully weather sealed too.

    You have to work on finding something more realistic to complain about.

    G

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Mirrorless has another challenge too: eBay

    If I have a Nikon FX camera and I need a cheapish 300mm prime that will autofocus on my camera, I can go to eBay and buy the Nikkor 300mm f/4 AF, a lens that I have, for around $400, and I get an excellent lens that will last for many years.

    If I want the corresponding focal length on any mirrorless camera, if such an AF lens is even available, I have to buy a new or much newer lens and obviously much more expensive lens. I just did that for my E-M1, and the only realistic alternative was a used 40-150mm f/2.8 (80-300mm eqv.) for around $1,200. If I insisted on a prime, it would have been the 4/3 150mm f/2 that can be had used for around the same price. This is exactly one of the points in Thom's article.

    Many camera/photography enthusiasts are young people on a budget, and having access to literally tens of millions of native AF lenses for either of the DSLR brands is a huge money-saver. It will take years, or decades even, before a similar selection of lenses is available second hand in native mirrorless mounts.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Sheesh. There are any number of excellent condition, pro-quality Olympus ZD 50-200/2.8-3.5 ED lenses available for prices between $250 and $550 that will work beautifully on your E-M1 or any other Micro-FourThirds camera. With the MMF-3 mount adapter, it will be fully weather sealed too.

    You have to work on finding something more realistic to complain about.

    G
    I don't complain, Godfrey. I try to understand what is happening. I've been shooting with 4/3 lenses on m4/3 bodies for 6 years. It only works well on the E-M1. It works on other bodies too, but much to slow to be satisfactory. Sony has a better solution for this with the A-mount adapter.

    All these "interesting" solutions work well for you and me and other enthusiasts. But camera factories can't stay alive by selling to enthusiasts. They need to sell in large numbers to Johnny Consumer and his friends. When he buys a camera, he wants something that works out of the box. If it doesn't, he writes long rants on dpreview of useless cameras and threatens to buy another brand in his next life, which seems to be right around the corner anyway, since he'll probably suffer a heart attack from the single fact that Canisony deceived him.

    There's a reason why those 4/3 lenses are so cheap.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Tim, what a waste of Hogan's article!
    (The guy ran blog on mirrorless, what happened to that?)

    The only dslr you would consider is the Pentax K1!
    I like the K1 IQ, something nice about the files. Maybe also its that sexy swivel LCD
    The K1 looks one of the smallest in FF - here is the mandatory Camera size link - Compact Camera Meter , hmm, maybe too close.

    I am also thinking about becoming a Pentax fanboi, I hear they are recruiting.


    Last edited by Tim; 14th July 2016 at 23:32.
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Not always, D750 1,500g vs. A7 II 1,420g
    But you can do this with mirrorless. No way with a DSLR, unless someone make my unicorn DSLR EM5 III

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    There's always something new. There are newer, better cameras of each type being launched every month, and while one can question how useful the new developments are, they do show that nobody is resting on his laurels. If there are any laurels to rest on, for look at this:

    According to official CIPA statistics, the number of cameras shipped have gone down in all areas except Asia outside Japan. These are the figures for January to May this year compared to the same period in 2015, number of units shipped.

    Japan
    Mirrorless: -35.7%
    DSLR: -21.3%

    Europe
    Mirrorless: +1.7%
    DSLR: -4.2%

    Americas
    Mirrorless: -25.8%
    DSLR: -9.6%

    Asia outside Japan
    Mirrorless: +8.6%
    DSLR: -23.1%

    Total
    Mirrorless: -8%
    DSLR: -14.7%

    Mirrorless seems to lose traction everywhere except in Asia. That is interesting since a huge part of the Asian market consist of people who haven't owned a camera before, the new middle classes. Also, Asia outside Japan now represents 50% of the world's camera market, which is why sales here push the total statistics towards a mirrorless win. Marketing of mirrorless cameras has been very strong in Asia, and since many of the mirrorless brands were well known household names already, much stronger than the traditional camera brands, they've had a relatively easy match.

    In the traditional markets, innovation is important to compete with the traditionally strong brand names like Canon and Nikon. Unfortunately, the last time a mirrorless camera represented more innovation than their DSLR competitors was in 2008 with the launch of the Panasonic G1. Take a look at the Fuji X-T2 for instance, a fine camera where Fuji has listened to its customers and presented real progress:

    - LCD that can tilt in two directions. My Canon A95 from 2004 could tilt the LCD in all directions.
    - Two card slots. Nikon D300s had 2 card slots in 2009, higher end Canon and Nikon models earlier than that.
    - 4K video, just like Panasonic GH4 got in 2014 and several DSLR cameras launched lately also have.
    - Ability to carry 3 batteries with the grip, so that one can get as many shots as the $500 Nikon D3300 can with one. This is what we call a workaround.
    - High quality 24MP sensor. Yup, just like the Nikon D3300.
    - Better EVF refresh rate in "Power Mode" with higher energy consumption. Any DSLR has unlimited refresh rate with zero energy consumption.

    Again, it's a fine camera, like many other mirrorless cameras. But if I should get the idea of changing to Fuji, it wouldn't be because it's mirrorless. It would be because they make some great lenses and because the image quality is exceptional. But most consumers only buy the kit lens and one $200 telephoto zoom. They couldn't care less about Fuji's fine lenses, and the sensor in the Digital Rebel is just fine too. And they get confused when they look into the viewfinder of a mirrorless camera and it's dark, even if they remembered to remove the lens cap.

    Until recently, I've been of the opinion that mirrorless will win the world market. Just give it time. But I'm not so sure anymore. It seems like it's a winning concept in Asia where I live, but when I talk with young people in Europe, they ask me if they should buy Nikon or Canon.
    Those are some scary statistics Jorgen especially because it is a continuation of decline, and nothing promises to alter it in future. Innovation is being used to battle for a larger slice of a shrinking pie. That rarely ends well in the marketing world when nothing is done to halt the shrinkage.

    The 500lb Gorilla in the room that no one acknowledges is how people engage in photography, and how they share pictures. Most of the innovation there favors anything other than cameras as we define them.

    What is seriously missing is innovation in image preservation and presentation that showcases what we practice as "Photography".

    While we can argue that we make prints, or share via publishing or posting on sites that support higher resolution, well-crafted images our anecdotal experiences pale in comparison with the rest of the planet.

    Basically, we are a small global cadre of like minded folks which gets smaller each year. A group that sends picture memos to each other, and discusses minutia with great passion and prejudice.

    Of note is Apples' recent TV campaign showing :10 second video snips expertly paired with music and signed by an apparent "novice" photographer supported by multi-million$ worth of exposure none of us will probably ever enjoy.

    "F/8 and be there." has morphed to "Cell Phone, and someone is ALWAYS there".

    Guy recently devolved to a rant about how cell phones have ruined photography. From my perspective, I'd agree with him not because they replaced good photography, but because they highlighted how people actually view images. I've watched as commercial photography was gutted by the web (who needs MFD quality for 5" pics @ 72 PPI?). Weddings have become a difficult business to sustain because good work takes time, and no one has the patience I'd get home after a wedding and questionable guest images are already on the clients Facebook page with a hundred "likes". And so on.

    I'd argue that it is the lack of consolidation by those who make and use better tools in an effort to promote and showcase better imagery in a more organic and ubiquitous way. Currently, companies compete with the objective of grabbing a bigger slice of the shrinking pie, and are doing do little to keep it from shrinking. Meanwhile, the real competition is eating them alive.

    - Marc
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    A mate of mine is an Oscar winning composer - he own a 500K grand piano for his own pleasure but composes movie music on a dumb keyboard linked to a few tens of thousands of dollars of software - less $'s invested in his work gear than many on here have in camera gear. His son is part of a successful band now resident mainly in US and he tells me they dont even ho to recording studios anymore- what the point if the can do it all in a room at home? Another mate has put out a few albums into the jazz world- in collaboration with a japanese guitarist based in Japan and a Ukrainian pianist - yeah based in Ukraine - they have NEVER met in real life ( yet).

    Photogrpahy is just copping what has revolutionised many other industries already - no biggie. Ther eis a huge difference between instagram and galleries - different markets - but yeah digital world sorts out the pretenders and fakers from those with talent dont you think?
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't complain, Godfrey. I try to understand what is happening. I've been shooting with 4/3 lenses on m4/3 bodies for 6 years. It only works well on the E-M1. It works on other bodies too, but much to slow to be satisfactory. Sony has a better solution for this with the A-mount adapter.

    All these "interesting" solutions work well for you and me and other enthusiasts. But camera factories can't stay alive by selling to enthusiasts. They need to sell in large numbers to Johnny Consumer and his friends. When he buys a camera, he wants something that works out of the box. If it doesn't, he writes long rants on dpreview of useless cameras and threatens to buy another brand in his next life, which seems to be right around the corner anyway, since he'll probably suffer a heart attack from the single fact that Canisony deceived him.

    There's a reason why those 4/3 lenses are so cheap.
    Your example was a used, ebayed Nikon 300mm AF lens. No camera factory makes a dime from a used lens sale. The ZD 50-200mm works fine on my E-M1, my E-PL7, my E-PL1, as well as the oldest Panasonic G1 and G7 sans AF.

    And the teensy little M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/3.5-5.6 cost me less than $125 new and performs nearly as well, AFs perfectly on all, although it's a stop and a half slower.

    You're just complaining needlessly.

    G

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    There's always something new. There are newer, better cameras of each type being launched every month, and while one can question how useful the new developments are, they do show that nobody is resting on his laurels. If there are any laurels to rest on, for look at this:
    Agree, but the high level comparisons (complaints ?) of DSLR's vs. mirrorless all remain the same. Everything is getting better but for some it's never enough while for others it's already plenty for some time.

    Btw thanks for the shipping numbers, pretty grim picture so we better hold on to what we use today since there might soon not be any more new cameras to buy once all the brands went belly-up.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    so we better hold on to what we use today since there might soon not be any more new cameras to buy once all the brands went belly-up.
    That is an interesting point. If sales drop, then staff get laid off. What we may see is a new model every two to three years rather than 6 months with even smaller improvement increments but also more likely prices could rise, dramatically.

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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    That is an interesting point. If sales drop, then staff get laid off. What we may see is a new model every two to three years rather than 6 months with even smaller improvement increments but also more likely prices could rise, dramatically.
    We are mostly there already:

    - Most brands upgrade much less frequently than they did 10 years ago, like the D500 and X-Pro2.
    - Many of the upgrades are existing and minimally improved technology in a new packaging, like the X-T2.
    - Most successful brands use the same sensors as the competitors, and the chips seem to stay in production longer.

    The exceptions are lenses. There's a constant flow of new third party offerings, partly from the traditional German and Japanese brands, but even more interestingly from new Chinese and Korean start-ups. Many of those lenses work as well on my ten years old Nikon D2Xs as on a shiny new Sony A7RS III Special Edition. And for the record: That old Nikon is still capable of producing stunning photos, just as much as it was 10 years ago.

    Technology can make it easier, and sometimes more complicated, to take photos, but photography as such doesn't change much.

  42. #42
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    We are mostly there already:

    - Most brands upgrade much less frequently than they did 10 years ago ...
    I, for one, am quite glad to see that. I really don't want my major-expense-item product cycles to be so fast. My 2012-2013 era M typ 240 and E-M1 technology has plenty of life left in it ... I really don't need a heck of a lot more. The new M-D is a step backwards and it is more than satisfactory. The SL is 2014-2015 technology and a nice addition, even though I know I underutilize it. Even my ancient E-1 is still a very competent camera.

    It has long been the case that the cameras are over-engineered and under-developed. Engineering can be relatively quick; development takes years in the field. It's the strength of the top flight film cameras, like the Nikon F series, the Canon F1 series, etc, that they had many years in the field and small incremental development all the way through.

    It's time the digital cameras moved in that direction, far as I'm concerned, because they certainly have enough basic capability to do the job now.

    G
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  43. #43
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Mirrorless and DSLR again, spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I, for one, am quite glad to see that. I really don't want my major-expense-item product cycles to be so fast. My 2012-2013 era M typ 240 and E-M1 technology has plenty of life left in it ... I really don't need a heck of a lot more. The new M-D is a step backwards and it is more than satisfactory. The SL is 2014-2015 technology and a nice addition, even though I know I underutilize it. Even my ancient E-1 is still a very competent camera.

    It has long been the case that the cameras are over-engineered and under-developed. Engineering can be relatively quick; development takes years in the field. It's the strength of the top flight film cameras, like the Nikon F series, the Canon F1 series, etc, that they had many years in the field and small incremental development all the way through.

    It's time the digital cameras moved in that direction, far as I'm concerned, because they certainly have enough basic capability to do the job now.

    G
    I couldn't agree more, and I'm very happy to see that the current 24MP APS-C sensor is being refined for each new camera model that comes out. If this continues, we will probably see a 24MP/4K Nikon D5600 with an image quality very close to that of the D810 and for less than $800 in a few months. There's also a rumour out that the GH5 will continue with a 16MP sensor, but with much increased video and stills quality, hopefully in the same excellent camera body with further refinements.

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