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Thread: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

  1. #101
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    it's no DPR

    (and that's a good thing).

    Actually there are some aspects to the image that I quite like. As street pointed out, the bag the guy is carrying has great geometry, and I love how the boy is caught in a shaft of light.

    I'm wondering if this was either shot at a wider aperture or with a bigger sensor (to give less DOF) if the background would have washed a bit more and my eye wouldn't get caught up in it so much. Or perhaps I just just up my dosage
    Excuse me Guy....

    NS.....try taking the mousie thing and moving the image up on your screen so that the top part gets cut off....

    That's right...see...the tension in the eye travel is released...

    That contrast is exactly what keeps you in the image......
    The eye fights to discover the content.....

    anyway.....this is about the best forum on the net....

    later

  2. #102
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    As street pointed out, the bag the guy is carrying has great geometry, ..

    I am lost on that one.

    Edit:

    OK, I just realized that NS was talking about my image and not Kevin's.

    Nostatic, The gear I used was D300 and a 50/1.8 (@f/3.2). Not a 4/3rds or m4/3rds camera. This shot is 1 year old. In my estimate that aperture was good enough. I would have liked using a wider lens and had I not been sitting down, there would have been possibilities for different perspectives. Also, since I had not been happy about this shot, I never looked at the RAW file. This was a jpg from the camera.
    Last edited by Vivek; 1st October 2009 at 17:00.

  3. #103
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Excuse me Guy....

    NS.....try taking the mousie thing and moving the image up on your screen so that the top part gets cut off....

    That's right...see...the tension in the eye travel is released...

    That contrast is exactly what keeps you in the image......
    The eye fights to discover the content.....

    anyway.....this is about the best forum on the net....

    later
    I actually played around a bit with the image, doing some highlight recovery and trying different crops. I get what you're saying, but for my eye, the tension is too much and fatigues me. I think there is a tightrope that we walk wrt contrast and tension in an image, and where that line is drawn varies for different artists and viewers. I have to force myself to stay on the image. If this were one of a number of images in a gallery, I wouldn't linger - and that would be to my loss because there are some cool aspects to the shot.

    And Vivek, just to be clear I'm not trying to be demeaning or hyper-critical. I'm just genuinely curious about what street saw in the image and how it differed from my take. Actually this discourse has been quite helpful and I have much better clarity that I can hopefully apply to my shots. And the reality is that with street shooting, often you just get what you get as you can't control the variables. I'm far from a technical shooter, as I break a lot of rules and don't bother to control things I could. My reaction was less from a technical analysis but rather just my visceral response to the image.

  4. #104
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    maybe we should all walk away from this thread... the topics discussed are so far from its title to be silly.

    though it has become an interesting discussion on composition... which is much more preferable than pictures of brick walls and the finer nuances of chromic aberration.

    I have no idea what guy was trying to say. It sounds like he heard here was a fight going on here and came to calm it down... I look around and I see no fight... I see me and vivek agreeing :-).. I see streetshooter offering intellligent insight into why a photo works.... sounds like a good night on a barstool to be... mines a single malt

    on the other hand maybe guy posted his message to the wrong thread

    peace out

    K

  5. #105
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    No worries at all, Nostatic.

    I had shown this one once elsewhere (not DPR and I don't go there) and an old fart of a moderator there made me chuckle with his comments.

    This discussion has been nice thanks, Don, Kevin and Nostatic.

  6. #106
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    on the other hand maybe guy posted his message to the wrong thread
    He is in the wrong forum altogether.

  7. #107
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    I see me and vivek agreeing :-).. I see streetshooter offering intellligent insight into why a photo works.... sounds like a good night on a barstool to be... mines a single malt
    So I'm the bartender? Or just the one who has to buy?

    I feel so left out

    Can I have tequila instead of single malt? Sorry, a byproduct of being born and raised in southern California

  8. #108
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    He is in the wrong forum altogether.
    He's in the wrong forum


    (assuming you all typed that at the same time ie all together)

  9. #109
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    ah nostatic you have me in a quandry... being a scotsman living in paris with a california girl of distant russian extraction our nightcap can rotate between Patron, Laphroig, Otard brandy and Russian Standard vodka

    decisions descions

    :-)

    K

  10. #110
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    nostatic... if your icon is harpo we forget you can speak :-)

    K

  11. #111
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Hmmm i thought we had a issue earlier. Okay NOW i am heading for the bar. Maybe I need to throw a few back
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  12. #112
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    guy

    it was a bit nippy earlier in the thread.. then people actually took some pictures and started discussing them and all is cool


    head to the bar with a clear mind


    K

  13. #113
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hmmm i thought we had a issue earlier. Okay NOW i am heading for the bar. Maybe I need to throw a few back

    these are not the threads you're looking for...


  14. #114
    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    To get the thread back on topic, I received a GF1 w/17mm today from Panasonic and I set out to do a comparison between it and the E-P1. I was checking exposure, noise, JPGs, raws, white balance, focus speed, etc. All of the testing was done using the Panasonic 17mm f1.7 lens. What I have found is interesting. I have comparison images in LR so that you can see what I am seeing.

    Some of the results were surprising to me and might be to some of you. Each camera has pluses and minuses and deciding which are critical to you (or me) can be difficult as I want it all as I am sure many of you do too.

    I have to run out now as my better half is beckoning me to go to dinner so I will work on this when I get back and post the results in a new thread.
    V/r John

  15. #115
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    topics... we dont need no stinking topics....

    anyway if you have a panasonic 17/1.7 you may find its field of view constrained compared to the Zuiko lens. However if you check the front of the lens you will find it to be a 20mm lens

    enjoy dinner

    K :-)

  16. #116
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    I am loving how this thread ... which started as a 'gear war' thread has mutated through discussions on wine to an analysis of composition....

    gotta love get DPI...

    K
    Alcohol fixes EVERYTHING... Well not really but it is known as liquid courage in some places.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

  17. #117
    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Good catch Kevin. That's the problem with trying to write when your head is stopped up, you are on cold meds and haven't had a drink to loosen things up.
    V/r John

  18. #118
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    what's 3mm between friends.

    At least that's what my ex-wife used to always say...

  19. #119
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    At least no one bought up black or silver, or worse a silver lens on a black body!

  20. #120
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Funny thing...I originally posted...
    "That's a very good sleeper".....
    I changed it on second thought....

    Well....I'll try....the white area you see and are drawn to is in contrast to the lower right dark are and that creates some eye travel...The innocent people walking as if unaware of a gun behind them....let alone a child holding it...POINTING IT!

    I see a detachment in the relationship of the 3 people.....Maybe the child wants a real gun...it just wakes up thoughts in my mind...

    the eye travel works well and moves thru the entire image with minimal interruptions.....

    I love the shape of the bag the man is carrying that goes nicely with his feet...and the lines of the woman's top that forces the eye travel left to right and back again BUT...

    her position in the door frame supports the vertical lines of the other door/window frames...
    That is a dangerous device because it could easily pull the eye travel out of the frame....

    it's a nice slice of daily life that could be anywhere/anytime in this modern day world....

    There is no sign of Vivek in the image except for the image....

    Hope that helps...
    Yeah, I know.....I'm crazy as they get....
    shooter
    This post is worth the entire rest of the thread put together!

    Thanks Vivek, for posting a terrific street shot, and to Don for taking us through it...

    I know that there are so many variables in play, that the composition / timing has to be an unconscious achievement... but having a commentary which takes us through why the shot works so well is really of great value!

    Thanks everyone, this is what I expect in this neighbourhood! let's keep away from the DPR brain damage please

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  21. #121
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    To get the thread back on topic, I received a GF1 w/17mm today from Panasonic and I set out to do a comparison between it and the E-P1. I was checking exposure, noise, JPGs, raws, white balance, focus speed, etc. All of the testing was done using the Panasonic 17mm f1.7 lens. What I have found is interesting. I have comparison images in LR so that you can see what I am seeing.

    Some of the results were surprising to me and might be to some of you. Each camera has pluses and minuses and deciding which are critical to you (or me) can be difficult as I want it all as I am sure many of you do too.

    I have to run out now as my better half is beckoning me to go to dinner so I will work on this when I get back and post the results in a new thread.
    John,

    Actually, with the name of this thread and the discussion, I'd love to see your results from both cameras posted here. It's your choice.
    Don

  22. #122
    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Here to Learn

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    Actually this discourse has been quite helpful and I have much better clarity that I can hopefully apply to my shots. ../.. I'm far from a technical shooter, as I break a lot of rules and don't bother to control things I could. My reaction was less from a technical analysis but rather just my visceral response to the image.
    I'll second these very same words as I'm sure many others will. This is precisely why many return here on a daily basis and tend to shy away from the likes of DPR where nowadays one learns very little and sharing is a thing of the past.

  23. #123
    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Alcohol fixes EVERYTHING... Well not really but it is known as liquid courage in some places.
    The best definition I've ever seen was scrawled in the men's in a pub in the Strand:
    "Reality is an Illusion Produced by the Lack of Alcohol". I thought it fitted quite nicely in the philosophy of photography and makes me chuckle to see you folk talking of unwinding at the bar

  24. #124
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Kevin....
    Simple setup...

    Fn button has screen on/off....
    17mm, finder on top....
    AF is at AEL...
    sleep off...(now it works so ya can set it how ya like)
    A mode generally f11...
    (I am about 6' tall, if I hold the camera level to my eyes, point to the ground..and hit AF...I am at hyperfocal distance for f11...give me about 2.75' to Paris....)
    Iso to support f11...generally 400-800 in good light...

    then just walk around.....1 cup Kona with some Bailey's to taste....

    The camera will respond instantly on release.....every once in a while I hit the release about 1/2 just to make sure she's awake....

    This way works great as the camera is always awake and it can wait for me to wake up.....
    Shoot
    This is great advice! I have been considering how to use the PEN as a street-cam. I wonder if you wouldn't mind me asking about hyperfocal distances though, or direct me to a site that explains them. In my naivety I wonder why just focussing at infinity wouldn't achieve the same effect as focussing at the floor 6 feet below..?

  25. #125
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    I will try....
    At hyper focal you get everything in a focus zone from 1/2 the Hyper focal distance to infinity.

    So at f11 for example with the Pen and 17mm,
    your good from about 2.75' out.
    By focusing at a different distance you start to loose the foregroung and/or infinity.

    There's talk bout diffraction as you use smaller f stops but I ain't never seen it but I hear stories about it. I think it's bunk myself...
    But I'm always diffracted. We don't have that stuff here in Philly.

    Remember, we live in/by the inverse square law.
    Less is more/ more is less.

    I will post the distances for you if you like for each f stop.
    Shooter

  26. #126
    Gakuranman
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    I will try....
    At hyper focal you get everything in a focus zone from 1/2 the Hyper focal distance to infinity.

    So at f11 for example with the Pen and 17mm,
    your good from about 2.75' out.
    By focusing at a different distance you start to loose the foregroung and/or infinity.

    There's talk bout diffraction as you use smaller f stops but I ain't never seen it but I hear stories about it. I think it's bunk myself...
    But I'm always diffracted. We don't have that stuff here in Philly.

    Remember, we live in/by the inverse square law.
    Less is more/ more is less.

    I will post the distances for you if you like for each f stop.
    Shooter
    I'd really appreciate if you could post those distances! It's a little late now, so I'm going to read over what you wrote again tomorrow

  27. #127
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Here they are for the 17mm on the Pen....

    f stop Hyper focal Distance

    2.8 ..... 22.4'
    4.0 ..... 15.9'
    5.6 ..... 11.2'
    8.0 ..... 7.96'
    11.0 ..... 5.6'
    16.0 ..... 4.01'

    Remember that at any of the given distances the depth of field covers from 1/2 that distance to infinity.
    (For some reason unknown to me, this is supposed to work in meters too....)

    Any other questions, I am at your service....
    shooter

  28. #128
    meilicke
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Shooter, what is the formula? I guess I could look it up . It is interesting because the f stop and distance pattern.

    -Scott

  29. #129
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    The formula?
    The law actually. I try never to break it cause then I would need AF.

    Try to see it as.... Changing f stops brings the DOF nearer to you. Infinity is always at the other end. So you determine how close you want to be to keep things in...
    Then adjust the f stop to suite.
    There is a mathamatical formula but it has nothing to do with making images.
    The table above is the result of the formula.

    Check out dofmaster.com
    shooter

  30. #130
    Subscriber Member kit laughlin's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    @ m3photo:

    "Reality is for those who can't handle drugs!"

    Graffito I saw one that appealed immensely.

    If anyone has the hyperfocal distances for the 20mm lens, I will be grateful (I assume they are fairly close to the ones for the 17, above).

  31. #131
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Here ya go...
    20mm
    f stop Focus distance

    1.7 .... 52.1'
    2.0 .... 43.8'
    2.8 .... 31'
    4.0 .... 21.9'
    5.6 .... 15.5'
    8.0 .... 11'
    11.0 .... 7.8'
    16.0 .... 5.53'

    As before, for some reason it works in meters too....
    Ya can see that the 20mm will be slightly challenging on the streets...
    The reason I sold my DP2....even with the finder, it's a struggle to get the world in focus...

    shooter

  32. #132
    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    If the GF1 is only "slightly faster" to focus than the E-P1, then Panasonic did something wrong because the G1 is to the E-P1 what a Ferrari is to a GM Saturn, if you're talking about focusing speed. The latest firmware upgrade also vastly improved the low-light focusing of the G1 so it now keeps up with my Nikon D300, with the same f-ratio lens.

  33. #133
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    If the GF1 is only "slightly faster" to focus than the E-P1, then Panasonic did something wrong because the G1 is to the E-P1 what a Ferrari is to a GM Saturn, if you're talking about focusing speed. The latest firmware upgrade also vastly improved the low-light focusing of the G1 so it now keeps up with my Nikon D300, with the same f-ratio lens.
    I suspect the lens is limiting the CDAF speed... The GF1 should be much faster with the Lumix 14-45 than the E-P1 with the 14-42. To get a true idea of the body differences, you'd need to use the same lens on each body.

    The GF1 will still be "slightly faster" but it seems the 20mm f1.7 pancake is using slower, noisier focusing motors presumably due to size constraints... the same route taken by Olympus for their first two kit lenses.

    I would personally love a prime, High Grade 17mm f2 with fast focusing motors - forget the pancake design, give me a lens with beautiful bokeh and great IQ.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  34. #134
    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by kit laughlin View Post
    @ m3photo:

    "Reality is for those who can't handle drugs!"

    Graffito I saw one that appealed immensely.
    Very good, yes.
    My favourite was on a Canadian girl's T-Shirt about 30 years ago:
    "Having abandoned the search for truth, I'm now looking for a damn good fantasy".
    Funny that, I started taking pictures around then ...

  35. #135
    Gakuranman
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Here ya go...
    20mm
    f stop Focus distance

    1.7 .... 52.1'
    2.0 .... 43.8'
    2.8 .... 31'
    4.0 .... 21.9'
    5.6 .... 15.5'
    8.0 .... 11'
    11.0 .... 7.8'
    16.0 .... 5.53'

    As before, for some reason it works in meters too....
    Ya can see that the 20mm will be slightly challenging on the streets...
    The reason I sold my DP2....even with the finder, it's a struggle to get the world in focus...

    shooter
    Thanks for posting these! This does make it more difficult to do street shooting - but why are the focal lengths so different? It's only a 3mm difference on the lenses..?

  36. #136
    Super Moderator Cindy Flood's Avatar
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    Re: Is GF1 is E-P1 killer?

    At f/11 and subject at 6 feet away

    17mm
    Near limit of acceptable sharpness 2.91 feet
    Far limit of acceptable sharpness Infinity
    In front of subject 3.1 feet
    behind subject infinite
    Hyperfocal distance 5.64 feet
    Focus at the hyperfocal distance of 5.64 feet and DOF extends from 2.82 feet to infinity

    20mm
    Near limit of acceptable sharpness 3.39 feet
    Far limit of acceptable sharpness 25.8 feet
    In front of subject 2.6 feet
    Behind subject 19.8 feet
    Hyperfocal distance 7.8 feet
    Focus at the hyperfocal distance of 7.8 feet and DOF extends from 3.9 feet to infinity

    ...using DOFMaster.com
    Last edited by Cindy Flood; 4th October 2009 at 05:44.

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