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Thread: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    I think the next lens for me is the 7-14 and the new 45mm and sell the kit lens. Most of my shots are 14mm, 20mm and 45mm from what I have been shooting with it. I actually pressed this into service yesterday on a job along with my MF images.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Guy, the landscape photograph with the rocks is beautiful. Love the light and muted colors. The first one with the leaves, the first grapes, and the photo of Jack are also .

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Thanks Amin and nice to see you back. Enjoy yourself.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    20 second exposure will driving in the Land of the Giants
    Wow, that turned out kind of neat! Folks, it was o-dark:30, raining and there was zero light other than my headlights and a slight bit of pre-dawn seeping through the thick fog and rain. Guy mounted his Gorilla pod to my dashboard and began clicking away and videoing with his new GF1. (Yes, he does stuff like that all the time on road trips. ) The yellow in the middle is the centerline road stripe; on the side, the edge warning reflector posts.
    Jack
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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Amin and nice to see you back. Enjoy yourself.
    Thanks Guy!

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Karl- the church shot is quite lovely.

    Guy-you long exposure needs to be crossposted on the Photographing your bokeh thread

    Jack-must get my computers all hooked back up and try and create some secret sauce recipes. That one is REALLY good...I have way more space in my new pad but don't yet like where my desk is so I haven't set up all my tech

    Amin- welcome back...

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Thanks Terry, congrats on becoming a super mod in the interim .

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Friedel View Post
    Songbook in old church in Kiedrich/Rheingau/Germany (E-P1 with 20mm/1,7)



    Karl
    Very beautiful shot.

    Guy, I liked the long exposure--and others too--esp. the landscape with the rocks.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Fun thread.

    Nice to see you back, Amin.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Thanks Dale!

    Two jellies from today with the GH1:




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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Yokohama, Monday Morning, GF1 posted on Sunday, Forum time...

    another day, another hotel room
    -bob

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    . . . .

    Guy-you long exposure needs to be crossposted on the Photographing your bokeh thread

    ...
    Thanks Terry - we need to keep these Guys under control - this one is needed over in the bokeh thread - we don't have too many "OOFs through movement"



    Keith

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Just as an attempt at clarification.

    The DPReview of the GF1 made clear that if using the camera's jpeg processing engine you will get much much better results with the EP1.

    On the other hand, if processing a Jpeg from raw then the GF1 is a far superior engine. They could not have been clearer about this. I think this distinction is really important since most of us take raw images and process later using our favorite converters. Personally I never shoot in Jpeg since once there you have no options in terms of going back to basic images then processing again if necessary.

    If you agree with that logic, then it makes sense to use the camera/engine that does the best job of capturing raw images. Once you have that basic image you can process an infinite number of variants depending on what you need/want to accomplish. I subscribe to that notion.......big time!

    Both are capable cameras, to be sure. I am a Panny fan when it comes to Micro 2/3 so that's all there is to that. My use for the GF1 is as a take with you camera so you never are in a position to lose a potentially useful and salable file. F8 and be there but if your camera is at home there is no F8 so you are basically hosed. The GF1 with the tiny 20 1.7 meets my criteria for a camera you can have with you at all times. Shoot raw and be there. JMHO!

    Woody

    By the way, last time I looked Jack, at about 6'6" and 260 or so is what is known as the moderator/administrator enforcer. Challenge this at your own peril

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Just as an attempt at clarification.

    The DPReview of the GF1 made clear that if using the camera's jpeg processing engine you will get much much better results with the EP1.

    On the other hand, if processing a Jpeg from raw then the GF1 is a far superior engine.
    HI Woody
    Where did they say this about the RAW files from the GF1 being far superior to those from the EP1?

    Can you point to it please?

    I'm not denying it, It's just that it doesn't bear out what I'm finding (I'm using LR3, and I'd say the RAW quality was exactly equivalent), and I really really don't remember reading it.

    If you are referring to the bottom of this page:

    dpreview raw comparison

    Then they are saying that the panasonic has a slight resolution advantage (as a result of a weaker AA filter) but that everything else is equivalent . .. and of course, you can get significantly more resolution out of an EP-1 by processing the files in C1 (an option not available for the GF1). What they are saying is that the improvement from jpg is much greater from the GF1 (because the jpg is less good).

    I see nothing about 'far superior engine' . . . but, as I say . . . maybe I'm missing something?

    all the best
    Last edited by jonoslack; 8th November 2009 at 16:14.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Woody,

    Both cameras are using the same sensor. Panny uses a weaker AA filter that gives marginally more detail. But essentially shooting RAW there really isn't a demonstrable difference. As you said, shooting jpegs, the Oly wins.

    Here is what I copied from the GF1 review (from a number of different pages):

    As shown elsewhere in this review the color rendition and white balance on a bright sunny day suffers in comparison to the Olympus E-P1 (which has some of the best JPEGs on the market), and at a pixel level the JPEGs don't make the most of the sensor's capabilities, but for most users (without access to an E-P1 for comparison) I suspect the results - even at the default settings - will give little cause for complaint.

    Focus and metering are very reliable (far more so than the E-P1), and since both lenses are excellent, overall impressions are very positive indeed - we took over 3500 shots during the production of this review, and the number of problems we had that could be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of the camera (as opposed to the operator) was tiny.

    Switching to raw capture and processing in ACR lifts the GF1's output from the realms of the 'perfectly decent' to the top tier of consumer camera picture quality, particularly at lower ISO settings, and particularly when detail and texture are important. Taking the camera's JPEG engine out of the equation reveals the excellent pixel-level sharpness captured by the CMOS sensor, and allows you to get exactly the color rendition you want (if, like us, you don't find the GF1's default color mapping that appealing). Even a straight ACR or Lightroom conversion at default settings produces results that are on a significantly higher level than those produced in-camera from the same exposure.


    Panasonic GF1 advantages over E-P1

    Faster autofocus and AF subject tracking
    Higher resolution screen (twice as many dots)
    Built in flash
    Optional Viewfinder
    AVCHD Lite
    Fast (F1.7) pancake lens kit


    Olympus E-P1 advantages over GF1

    Currently supports autofocus on a wider range of Olympus Four Thirds lenses
    In-body IS
    Collapsible kit zoom
    Stereo Sound
    Dual control dials
    Art Filters


    As we've seen with previous Panasonic models, switching to raw mode is like lifting a veil from the output, and even in this quick ACR conversion the true capabilities of the sensor are revealed, with visibly more resolution and none of the demosaicing artefacts or moiré we saw in the camera JPEG. By comparison the Olympus has improved far less, which - as we pointed out when we reviewed the E-P1 - is as much an indication of just how good its JPEGs are as anything else.

    Given our experience with every other Olympus and Panasonic camera it comes as no surprise that this raw comparison reveals the GF1 to have a slight resolution advantage over the E-P1 (thanks, presumably, to a slightly lighter low pass filter) - in fact the amount of detail you can capture with this body / lens combination is simply stunning.

    If you are a raw shooter there's no doubt that the GF1 can make more use of a good lens (removing the E-P1's superior processing equalizes just about everything else, and from a color and tonality point of view there's no significant difference).


    Here is the link to the full review:
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicGF1/

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Just as an attempt at clarification.

    The DPReview of the GF1 made clear that if using the camera's jpeg processing engine you will get much much better results with the EP1.

    On the other hand, if processing a Jpeg from raw then the GF1 is a far superior engine. They could not have been clearer about this. I think this distinction is really important since most of us take raw images and process later using our favorite converters. Personally I never shoot in Jpeg since once there you have no options in terms of going back to basic images then processing again if necessary.

    If you agree with that logic, then it makes sense to use the camera/engine that does the best job of capturing raw images. Once you have that basic image you can process an infinite number of variants depending on what you need/want to accomplish. I subscribe to that notion.......big time!

    Both are capable cameras, to be sure. I am a Panny fan when it comes to Micro 2/3 so that's all there is to that. My use for the GF1 is as a take with you camera so you never are in a position to lose a potentially useful and salable file. F8 and be there but if your camera is at home there is no F8 so you are basically hosed. The GF1 with the tiny 20 1.7 meets my criteria for a camera you can have with you at all times. Shoot raw and be there. JMHO!

    Woody

    By the way, last time I looked Jack, at about 6'6" and 260 or so is what is known as the moderator/administrator enforcer. Challenge this at your own peril

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    As you said, shooting jpegs, the Oly wins.
    Most reviewers feel that this is the case, but I prefer the Panasonic in-camera B&W to Oly in-cam B&W, and I'm more likely to shoot in-cam B&W than in-cam color.
    -Amin Sabet

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Most reviewers feel that this is the case, but I prefer the Panasonic in-camera B&W to Oly in-cam B&W, and I'm more likely to shoot in-cam B&W than in-cam color.
    Thanks for the clarification. Most do talk about the color not the B&W and I do very much like the B&W I get out of the G series. That being said, I haven't done any deep comparisons between the B&W rendering between the two brands.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    I almost never shoot color in-camera JPEG these days, and I suspect this would be the case whether I were to shoot Pana or Oly. I occasionally shoot in-cam B&W, so this is more important to me than the color.

    I don't have deep experience either with E-P1 in-cam B&W, but most of what I have seen has been either flat or one of the extreme contrast art filter effects. My impression of Oly B&W from the E-410 and E-420 was that it was flat. OTOH, the dynamic B&W from the LX3 and Panasonic MFT cameras is quite good IMO.
    -Amin Sabet

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Hi Terry / Amin
    I've seen some really nice b&w done with the EP1, but I can't for the life of me remember who took them.

    Like most, I only really shoot RAW - if I'm going to do black and white conversions I like to use Silver efex pro or the channel mixer in Aperture.

    All the best
    now I really AM off to bed!

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Well it isn't black and white but it is largely monochrome...



    I couldn't really figure out how to best crop this picture and this is a compromise. I wish I had a bit more in the frame to the left. I find some aspects of this building strangely erotic.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterB666 View Post
    (...)
    I find some aspects of this building strangely erotic.
    It's the Swedish tiles.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Yokohama, Tuesday Morning

    another day another hotel room
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 9th November 2009 at 13:39. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think the next lens for me is the 7-14 and the new 45mm and sell the kit lens. Most of my shots are 14mm, 20mm and 45mm from what I have been shooting with it. I actually pressed this into service yesterday on a job along with my MF images.
    Guy, when you talk about selling the kit lens, are you talking about the 20 or the zoom.?

    Jerry

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Jerry, you wouldn't sell the 20mm f1.7... I think he must mean the 14-45.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Bob,
    I really like this shot. I've been in too many hotels rooms and up and awake in the pre-dawn hours that I can relate to this shot. I also didn't see your reflection making it all the better.

    terry

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Bob,
    I really like this shot. I've been in too many hotels rooms and up and awake in the pre-dawn hours that I can relate to this shot. I also didn't see your reflection making it all the better.

    terry
    Thanks Terry,
    This time I tried to make the reflections work to my benefit instead of trying to minimize them.
    Also, you might recognize the forum on the laptop screen
    -bob

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Here are a few more from the Boston area, all the 20/1.7:





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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Great pictures, Jack, I like the second one most.

    Her another one from Frankfurt/Germany, I took it in a shopping mall.



    Karl

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Very nice images Jack. I really like the first image of the tree with just a few remaining red leaves. Excellent detail and well controlled sharpening.

    Carl

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Thanks Guys,

    Karl -- I like your composition too, the woman is perfectly placed/timed for the shot!

    Carl -- That was using basic ACR settings, then run through my standard CS sharpening and web converter routines. I have tweaked the routines to specifically avoid over-sharpening artifacts.
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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Woody,

    Both cameras are using the same sensor. Panny uses a weaker AA filter that gives marginally more detail. But essentially shooting RAW there really isn't a demonstrable difference. As you said, shooting jpegs, the Oly wins.

    Here is what I copied from the GF1 review (from a number of different pages):

    As shown elsewhere in this review the color rendition and white balance on a bright sunny day suffers in comparison to the Olympus E-P1 (which has some of the best JPEGs on the market), and at a pixel level the JPEGs don't make the most of the sensor's capabilities, but for most users (without access to an E-P1 for comparison) I suspect the results - even at the default settings - will give little cause for complaint.

    Focus and metering are very reliable (far more so than the E-P1), and since both lenses are excellent, overall impressions are very positive indeed - we took over 3500 shots during the production of this review, and the number of problems we had that could be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of the camera (as opposed to the operator) was tiny.

    Switching to raw capture and processing in ACR lifts the GF1's output from the realms of the 'perfectly decent' to the top tier of consumer camera picture quality, particularly at lower ISO settings, and particularly when detail and texture are important. Taking the camera's JPEG engine out of the equation reveals the excellent pixel-level sharpness captured by the CMOS sensor, and allows you to get exactly the color rendition you want (if, like us, you don't find the GF1's default color mapping that appealing). Even a straight ACR or Lightroom conversion at default settings produces results that are on a significantly higher level than those produced in-camera from the same exposure.


    Panasonic GF1 advantages over E-P1

    Faster autofocus and AF subject tracking
    Higher resolution screen (twice as many dots)
    Built in flash
    Optional Viewfinder
    AVCHD Lite
    Fast (F1.7) pancake lens kit


    Olympus E-P1 advantages over GF1

    Currently supports autofocus on a wider range of Olympus Four Thirds lenses
    In-body IS
    Collapsible kit zoom
    Stereo Sound
    Dual control dials
    Art Filters


    As we've seen with previous Panasonic models, switching to raw mode is like lifting a veil from the output, and even in this quick ACR conversion the true capabilities of the sensor are revealed, with visibly more resolution and none of the demosaicing artefacts or moiré we saw in the camera JPEG. By comparison the Olympus has improved far less, which - as we pointed out when we reviewed the E-P1 - is as much an indication of just how good its JPEGs are as anything else.

    Given our experience with every other Olympus and Panasonic camera it comes as no surprise that this raw comparison reveals the GF1 to have a slight resolution advantage over the E-P1 (thanks, presumably, to a slightly lighter low pass filter) - in fact the amount of detail you can capture with this body / lens combination is simply stunning.

    If you are a raw shooter there's no doubt that the GF1 can make more use of a good lens (removing the E-P1's superior processing equalizes just about everything else, and from a color and tonality point of view there's no significant difference).


    Here is the link to the full review:
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicGF1/
    Terry and jono

    I wasn't trying to "explain" why the jpeg from raw process with the GF1 "lifts a veil" compared to the EP-1. I was simply pointing out that this was a conclusion drawn in the review. If it is true then it is important (at least to me). If it is rubbish then I will stop reading DPReviews.

    Sorry if I created confusion but I read what I read and Terry quoted the pieces of the article I was referring to. I have no personal experience with the GF1 and only had a brief period with the G1 so I will keep my nose out of this.

    Woody

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Jack, I like the second one very well, but it reminds me that I ought to get home real soon to put in the snow stakes.

    Karl, great geometrics and composition
    -bob

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Terry and jono

    I wasn't trying to "explain" why the jpeg from raw process with the GF1 "lifts a veil" compared to the EP-1. I was simply pointing out that this was a conclusion drawn in the review. If it is true then it is important (at least to me). If it is rubbish then I will stop reading DPReviews.

    Sorry if I created confusion but I read what I read and Terry quoted the pieces of the article I was referring to. I have no personal experience with the GF1 and only had a brief period with the G1 so I will keep my nose out of this.

    Woody
    HI Woody

    What you said was:

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    On the other hand, if processing a Jpeg from raw then the GF1 is a far superior engine. They could not have been clearer about this.
    You may have read what you read, but you did not say what you read!

    Actually, this is not what they said at all, what they said was that the reason why:

    why the jpeg from raw process with the GF1 "lifts a veil" compared to the EP-1

    is because the jpg engine on the GF1 is inferior, not because it's RAW engine is so superior.

    Terry's long and carefully chosen quotes make this quite clear.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Jack, I like the second one very well, but it reminds me that I ought to get home real soon to put in the snow stakes.
    Well, the city workers were busy placing placing them in both Boston and Cambridge when we were there Gimme a minute and I'll find one on a hydrant for you...

    Jack
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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Just a couple from today (all taken with the EP1 and finished in LR3)

    Breakfast time with the 20 f1.7




    Time to cut the Vine
    (with the 20 f1.7)
    Last edited by jonoslack; 9th November 2009 at 16:15. Reason: removing a shot with the wrong lens!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    LOVE the abandoned greenhouse Jono!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Well, the city workers were busy placing placing them in both Boston and Cambridge when we were there Gimme a minute and I'll find one on a hydrant for you...

    Jack,
    I already have one on my hydrant, but I need to put them around my driveway. Losing 250 feet of asphalt after a snow can be pretty ugly especially when there might be stone walls hidden there.
    -bob

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    LOVE the abandoned greenhouse Jono!
    Jack,
    Are you sure that has been abandoned? Looks like a pretty good crop is growing there.
    -bob

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Jack,
    Are you sure that has been abandoned? Looks like a pretty good crop is growing there.
    -bob
    I'm saying nothing . . . . . I wouldn't dare!

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Thanks Dale!

    Two jellies from today with the GH1:

    Amin, I love this blue one, very serene. Where did you take these?
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Thanks Joan! Those were from a family trip to the New England Aquarium in Boston. Not quite as nice as the National Aquarium in Baltimore, where we previously lived, but still a very nice place to spend a day with a couple animal lovers.

    The 20/1.7 is a nice lens to take to an aquarium! Here's one more from the visit:



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Jack,
    I already have one on my hydrant, but I need to put them around my driveway. Losing 250 feet of asphalt after a snow can be pretty ugly especially when there might be stone walls hidden there.
    -bob
    Having recently moved to the Boston area, I don't like the sound of this!
    -Amin Sabet

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Amin,
    I feel like Finding Nemo.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Amin,
    I feel like Finding Nemo.
    This one sort of had personality like that. It was as if I raised the camera, and he turned at the last moment to flash me his better side .
    -Amin Sabet

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Amin,
    I feel like Finding Nemo.
    Ah, then to add another aquarium shot . I agree, Amin, the 20 is a lot of fun in an aquarium. I tried videoing the jellyfish with the 20--haven't put it together yet, but did pretty good.

    f/1.8 1/30s ISO800 The speckles are small matter (likely food) sinking down through the water.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Don't worry Amin, you will soon see the wonder of living in the city with snow<G>
    Joe

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    This is a really fun lens! The combination of the G1 articulating LCD and this lens is great for a Sunday ride.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Amin, that is one cute fish pose. Not so sure about yours though, Diane, they look kinda surly, LOL.

    Neat shots you two, I love aquariums.

    Henk, I agree. The 20 makes the G1 feel like a different camera, doesn't it? Not quite as svelte as the Gf1, but still really easy and fun to use just about anywhere. Where did your bike take you?
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joan View Post
    Amin, that is one cute fish pose. Not so sure about yours though, Diane, they look kinda surly, LOL.

    Neat shots you two, I love aquariums.
    Don't you love the lips on Amin's fish . It looks like a cartoon character. He didn't appear in ours, but then the two NC aquariums are aimed at indigenous fish in the 3 areas of the state---mountains, piedmont and coastal. We're not going to see many 'cute' fish LOL. I can't remember the circumstance of the koi in my first one--certainly not an indigenous fish.

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. Most do talk about the color not the B&W and I do very much like the B&W I get out of the G series. That being said, I haven't done any deep comparisons between the B&W rendering between the two brands.
    Hi Terry, so do you shoot jpeg when you're doing B&W work then? I find raw gives me much more flexibility in applying colour filters after the fact. For instance, I may apply an orange filter for skin tones, and another filter for the surroundings... as with this shot for instance :

    E-P1 + ZD 50mm f2
    1/125s f/4.0 at 50.0mm iso200


    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Fun with the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 (Image Thread)

    Brian:

    Interesting you use orange filtration for caucasian skin -- IME it exacerbates skin blemishes and underlying blood vessels. I much prefer using a light green to cyan filter for cleaner looking skin. Of course with kids, it is less problematic...
    Jack
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